So Jesus is not God?

[Trackdayguy]

If you're right then Jesus was an outright liar in all those quotes I provided. Paul got it wrong too. And the author of 1 Timothy.

If only they'd all waited another three or four hundred years it would all have become clear, right?
That isn't my argument.

My argument is in several parts.

First, Jesus makes fifteen or more statement none of which is compatible with the Trinity doctrine.

At the same time, he never once claims to be God. Instead he constantly identifies himself as the envoy and servant of God, who has no powers on his own account, but solely those that God lets him have.

Two, Jesus was a circumcised Jew in the stories. The god of the Jews is the nothing-like-Trinitarian god. Jesus' remarks about God are completely consistent with the Jewish view ─ as you'd expect.

Three, the Trinity doctrine is a 4th century invention. It didn't exist in Jesus' day. It arose because of the church politics of later centuries.

Four, the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense, both in my view and in the churches' view.

No one is even trying to argue against Jesus' human nature which is very important part of the equation. I can show you why God needed to become a human being if you like.

No, we don't know that. Instead we have Jesus' clear and repeated denials that he's God.
Let's not. Jesus is not mentioned once in the Tanakh ─ ask any Jew. The messiah mentioned there is a political and military leader who will restore the Jewish state to independence and preferably dominance. The 'suffering servant' in Isaiah is the nation of Israel. Oh, and Jesus was not called Immanuel. And the government was never on Jesus' shoulder or anywhere near it.
Why would that worry God even for a second? It wouldn't even involve pain unless he wanted it to.
But he's still a single God and Jesus is simply his chosen envoy. We have Jesus' repeated word for it.
Okay, you don't ─ my apologies for my error.
You're saying I should believe them on this matter rather than Jesus? That's ridiculous. Or Jesus is a liar. No third way.
So God is one person, and Jesus was really God walking around on earth and lying about his identity.

While he was on earth, no one was in heaven, because there's only one of him.

And when he cried out on the cross, My God, why have you forsaken me? that was a calculated deceit to protect his disguise.

Have I understood you correctly?

I love your enthusiasm to help the blind & deaf see & hear but Im sorry to tell you that most are incurable.

 

[blü 2]

I love your enthusiasm to help the blind & deaf see & hear but Im sorry to tell you that most are incurable.

But the truth will set them free!

Won't it?

 

[The Anointed]

Of course Jesus spoke all through the Anointing. No one's arguing against that. But whatever He testifies of Himself is true. So for example in Revelation 1:17-18 we see Jesus call Himself the First and the Last. A title only said of God previously.

However, as for Jesus raising Himself. JesuOf course Jesus spoke all through the Anointing. No one's arguing against that. But whatever He testifies of Himself is true. So for example in Revelation 1:17-18 we see Jesus call Himself the First and the Last. A title only said of God previously.

However, as for Jesus raising Himself. Jesus claimed to have the authority to raise Himself from the dead in John 10:18. The Father told Him that He(Jesus) had the power to both give His life and take it back again.

74x12 wrote...…… Of course Jesus spoke all through the Anointing.

The Anointed...…….. Not so my friend. He who was carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his successor, spoke through the mouth of his servant, the man Jesus.

74x12 Write....... No one's arguing against that. But whatever He testifies of Himself is true.

The Anointed...…….. It was the Lord who put 'HIS WORDS' into the mouth of his chosen prophet Jesus, who testified of himself with 'HIS WORDS' which he spoke through the mouth of his servant Jesus.

74x12 Wrote........ So for example in Revelation 1:17-18 we see Jesus call Himself the First and the Last. A title only said of God previously.

The Anointed...…… When you say "WE" you must be referring to yourself, because nowhere
does it say there in Revelation 1, that the one who spoke to John, was the man Jesus.

74x12 Wrote....... However, as for Jesus raising Himself. Jesus claimed to have the authority to raise Himself from the dead in John 10:18. The Father told Him that He(Jesus) had the power to both give His life and take it back again.

The Anointed...….. Wrong again. It was He who was anointed and chosen as the heir and successor to the throne of our Father, the Most High in the creation, who said through the mouth of his servant Jesus, that he had the power to both give his life and take it back again.

I have revealed to you that scripture proves that it was our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man' who is the only begotten son and heir of our heavenly Father, who raised Jesus from death. Nowhere in the scriptures will you find that Jesus raised himself from death.

Acts 17:30-31; In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by means of the MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from the dead."

 

[74x12]

If you're right then Jesus was an outright liar in all those quotes I provided. Paul got it wrong too. And the author of 1 Timothy.

If only they'd all waited another three or four hundred years it would all have become clear, right?

So you couldn't possibly misunderstand Jesus or Paul?

No, we don't know that. Instead we have Jesus' clear and repeated denials that he's God.

No we don't.

Let's not. Jesus is not mentioned once in the Tanakh ─ ask any Jew. The messiah mentioned there is a political and military leader who will restore the Jewish state to independence and preferably dominance. The 'suffering servant' in Isaiah is the nation of Israel. Oh, and Jesus was not called Immanuel. And the government was never on Jesus' shoulder or anywhere near it.

Isaiah 53 is not about the nation of Israel and it's provable.

And of course Jews will say He is not mentioned in the Tanakh. Which proves what exactly? Christianity is based on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah/Christ. So arguing the Jewish point of view --which is that Jesus is not the real Jewish Messiah-- would be an entirely different debate.

As for Jesus being called Immanuel; Matthew does call Him that. Meaning "God with us" which is what Jesus is. (Matthew 1:23)

When is the government literally on anyone's shoulder? You don't think that might have something to do with all power in heaven and earth being given to Jesus? (Matthew 24:30)

Why would that worry God even for a second? It wouldn't even involve pain unless he wanted it to.

Who says it worried Him? He was quoting Psalm 22 clearly.

Okay, you don't ─ my apologies for my error.

Okay

You're saying I should believe them on this matter rather than Jesus? That's ridiculous. Or Jesus is a liar. No third way.

Only saying that you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

o God is one person, and Jesus was really God walking around on earth and lying about his identity.

While he was on earth, no one was in heaven, because there's only one of him.

And when he cried out on the cross, My God, why have you forsaken me? that was a calculated deceit to protect his disguise.

Have I understood you correctly?

As God says in Jeremiah 23:24 "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" So of course God can easily be indwelling Jesus and in heaven at once.

 

[74x12]

The Anointed...…….. Not so my friend. He who was carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his successor, spoke through the mouth of his servant, the man Jesus.

How come Enoch saw the Son of man over and over; if Enoch is the Son of man? Did he see himself?

The Anointed...…….. It was the Lord who put 'HIS WORDS' into the mouth of his chosen prophet Jesus, who testified of himself with 'HIS WORDS' which he spoke through the mouth of his servant Jesus.

God Almighty the Father put His Words in Jesus. Jesus is the Word made flesh.

The Anointed...…… When you say "WE" you must be referring to yourself, because nowhere
does it say there in Revelation 1, that the one who spoke to John, was the man Jesus.

It clearly is to be inferred because in Revelation 1:17-18; the one speaking claims He was dead but is now alive forever.

The Anointed...….. Wrong again. It was He who was anointed and chosen as the heir and successor to the throne of our Father, the Most High in the creation, who said through the mouth of his servant Jesus, that he had the power to both give his life and take it back again.

I have revealed to you that scripture proves that it was our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man' who is the only begotten son and heir of our heavenly Father, who raised Jesus from death. Nowhere in the scriptures will you find that Jesus raised himself from death.

I'm confused. So you're saying that ... the son of man would be Enoch? Let me know if I'm wrong.

 

[blü 2]

So you couldn't possibly misunderstand Jesus or Paul?

I know when Person A is distinguishing [him]self from Person B; and when (lest there be any doubt) Person A distinguishes himself from Person B not once again but at least 14 further occasions ─ and is backed by Paul and by the author of 1 Timothy.

No we don't.

Well I do, which is why I keep trying to explain the extremely obvious to you.

Isaiah 53 is not about the nation of Israel and it's provable.

Whatever Isaiah 53 is about, it's not about Jesus. Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh, and Jesus is not a messiah as envisaged by the Tanakh, not even anointed by the priests.

Regardless of that, the bible contains not one single persuasive example of prophecy ─ that is, a prediction so well documented at the time of its making that we can be certain of its original terms, so detailed, distant and unforeseeable that it can't be a lucky guess, not a political slogan demanding that a desired future situation be brought about, and so well documented at its fulfillment that the result is so remarkable as to make supernatural foreknowledge a possibility.

Nothing.

And of course Jews will say He is not mentioned in the Tanakh. Which proves what exactly?

That it's their book and if they say Jesus isn't in it, Jesus isn't in it.

Christianity is based on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah/Christ. So arguing the Jewish point of view --which is that Jesus is not the real Jewish Messiah-- would be an entirely different debate.

What criteria mentioned in the Tanakh as appropriate for a messiah does Jesus fulfill?

As for Jesus being called Immanuel; Matthew does call Him that. Meaning "God with us" which is what Jesus is. (Matthew 1:23)

God is with them via his envoy and agent the man Jesus, only mediator between man and God.

When is the government literally on anyone's shoulder?

When they have responsibility for the proper running of the state.

You don't think that might have something to do with all power in heaven and earth being given to Jesus? (Matthew 24:30)

That's another example of Jesus not being God, but being the next in line when God retires. (That God wants to retire is actually one of the more extraordinary claims in the NT.)

Only saying that you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

I've got all the pieces that exist in the gospels. I keep the ones from the 4th century CE in a different box.

As God says in Jeremiah 23:24 "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" So of course God can easily be indwelling Jesus and in heaven at once.

Ah, so now Jesus is God because God is indwelling in him, not because he's actually God in his own right. As John 17 explains, we can all be one with God via Jesus, so, you say, we can all be God?

 

[Trackdayguy]

But the truth will set them free!

Won't it?

Most people cant hear the truth... So talking to the deaf & blind is a one way street. I believe some where in Proverbs is says: "talking to a fool only proves there's two"

We can put things out there that are supported by science and logic, but sadly religious people are some of the worlds most closed people.

 

[74x12]

I know when Person A is distinguishing [him]self from Person B; and when (lest there be any doubt) Person A distinguishes himself from Person B not once again but at least 14 further occasions ─ and is backed by Paul and by the author of 1 Timothy.

The revelation that Jesus is God comes through the progression of revelation that the Spirit gives. First they thought Him a rabbi perhaps, and then a prophet and then the Messiah/Son of God. The fact that Jesus is God is a further revelation; but all of them are true.

Well I do, which is why I keep trying to explain the extremely obvious to you.

It may seem extremely obvious to you and I do understand your position. Yet, I also understand where it falls short.

Whatever Isaiah 53 is about, it's not about Jesus. Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh, and Jesus is not a messiah as envisaged by the Tanakh, not even anointed by the priests.

Regardless of that, the bible contains not one single persuasive example of prophecy ─ that is, a prediction so well documented at the time of its making that we can be certain of its original terms, so detailed, distant and unforeseeable that it can't be a lucky guess, not a political slogan demanding that a desired future situation be brought about, and so well documented at its fulfillment that the result is so remarkable as to make supernatural foreknowledge a possibility.

Nothing.

Not anointed by the priesthood of Aaron, but by God Himself. (Matthew 3:16)
But John the baptizer was a Levite and the son of a priest. He baptized Jesus passing the ministry on to the new priesthood of Melchizedek. As for the corrupt priests of Aaron even though they did not anoint Him; yet notice that they put Him to death. So the priests actually sacrificed the Lamb.

That it's their book and if they say Jesus isn't in it, Jesus isn't in it.

Since God gave the scriptures; only God can properly interpret them. So even Jews must admit this or else deny that God gave them. And I'm aware that many Jews don't really believe. But, I believe.

What criteria mentioned in the Tanakh as appropriate for a messiah does Jesus fulfill?

All of it is either already fulfilled, being fulfilled or will be soon fulfilled by Jesus. However, it was necessary that God hide these things in mystery. Because the enemy(satan) could not know beforehand. Else he wouldn't take the bait.

God is with them via his envoy and agent the man Jesus, only mediator between man and God.

I have to believe that the significance of the name of Emmanuel is greater than just that; or else Matthew wouldn't emphasize it. Of course God is with us whenever any prophet has come. Because the holy Spirit is in them. (Luke 1:15) But Jesus is God in person with us.

When they have responsibility for the proper running of the state.

For the first time all power in heaven and earth is given to a human being. (Matthew 28:18) So you don't think Jesus sitting on the right hand ruling and reigning until all His enemies are put under His human feet fulfills Isaiah 9:6 "the government will be upon His shoulder"? (See Hebrews 1:8-13)

That's another example of Jesus not being God, but being the next in line when God retires. (That God wants to retire is actually one of the more extraordinary claims in the NT.)

Jesus the Son of man rules and reigns until all His enemies are put under His human feet. Then, He delivers the kingdom back to the Father complete, healed and restored. (Daniel 7:13, So, He came to reconcile all things to the Father. He did not come to replace or assume the position of God; so that the Father could retire. He came to turn us back again to the bosom of the Father. Jesus is God saying here is my true image. So when you honor Jesus you honor the unseeable God.

I've got all the pieces that exist in the gospels. I keep the ones from the 4th century CE in a different box.

They predate the 4th century.

Ah, so now Jesus is God because God is indwelling in him, not because he's actually God in his own right. As John 17 explains, we can all be one with God via Jesus, so, you say, we can all be God?

Jesus is God manifest. The Word was made flesh. (John 1:14) Jesus is the Vine and we are only branches on the vine. Jesus is the source or the fountain of the holy Spirit. So, the River of Life flows from the throne of God and so everyone who enthrones Jesus in their heart will have the holy Spirit flowing within them. A well of Living water springing up into everlasting life. No wonder He says " I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;" (John 17:23)

We are all body, soul and Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 5:23) No surprise that Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God. As it is written He ascended above all heavens in order to fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10) It's the Spirit of Jesus the most High God that we worship.

It's all about God building Himself a house to dwell in. Jesus in His humanity is the "Chief cornerstone". A tried stone, a precious cornerstone. A sure foundation. Everyone else who comes after are "living stones" that are built up on the Chief cornerstone to make God a great house to dwell in. For the heavens of the heavens are not able to contain Him. But what can contain God is whatever gives Him rest. For everyone has a house so that they can rest in it. And in love only God finds rest and will retire so to speak. So the new Jerusalem is God's rest or His Sabbath and Jesus is the foundation of it. Even the name Jerusalem means Foundation of Peace. That's where it all begins and ends.

Paul taught to worship the head of the body in Colossians 2. (the head is Jesus) Not the other members of the body. They are not God manifest even though they will be one with God through the holy Spirit flowing through them.

And we're nothing with out Him. So will all those saved be one with God? Yes. But will they be the head of the body? No. Only Jesus is head of the body and the Spirit of God is head of Jesus.

 

[blü 2]

We can put things out there that are supported by science and logic, but sadly religious people are some of the worlds most closed people.

For me, the interesting question is 'What's true in reality?' And every time I get it wrong, it's a chance to learn something.

On the other hand, it seems that faith is to be defended at all costs, and that what is true in reality (eg that there was no Trinity doctrine till three centuries or so after the traditional date of Jesus death) can't be allowed to interfere.

(I'll draw @Oeste's attention to this remark.)

 

[Oeste]

in reality (eg that there was no Trinity doctrine till three centuries or so after the traditional date of Jesus death)

I don’t understand the importance you appear to attach to this. As I’ve stated before, the Trinity doctrine was the church’s answer to the Arian heresy. Neither the doctrine of Arianism, Seballianism, Trinitarianism, Bitheism (nor a host of others I don’t want to get into here) doubted Jesus was God.

By the time of the Councils, Philanthropism and Adoptionism had died out, so the question before the church was not “Whether” Jesus was God but more “How” he was God.

Secondly, telling us there “was no Trinity doctrine until Nicea in the 3rd Century is akin to telling us there was no gravity until Isaac Newton in the 16th. The question is not when a biblical doctrine is developed, but whether the doctrine itself is scriptural.

Lastly, as we have already pointed out, scripture showed Jesus is God long before any of the early controversies arose.

 

[blü 2]

I don’t understand the importance you appear to attach to this. As I’ve stated before, the Trinity doctrine was the church’s answer to the Arian heresy. Neither the doctrine of Arianism, Seballianism, Trinitarianism, Bitheism (nor a host of others I don’t want to get into here) doubted Jesus was God.

I'm not concerned with what they liked to believe. I'm only concerned with the bible view of Jesus as God ─ and if Jesus is to be believed, and Paul, and whoever wrote 1 Timothy, Jesus was the envoy of God, probably in Paul's rather gnostic mind the demiurge, Jesus was not God.

But it's relevant that no Trinity doctrine existed in his day, since that makes the claim anachronistic, several centuries out of place.

Secondly, telling us there “was no Trinity doctrine until Nicea in the 3rd Century is akin to telling us there was no gravity until Isaac Newton in the 16th.

But not even the seeds of the Trinity concept existed before the third century.

And given that the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense, it can't be compared to gravity, which is real and has, as we understand it, always existed. The correct point is that no coherent concept of the Trinity has ever existed, not then and not now.

Lastly, as we have already pointed out, scripture showed Jesus is God long before any of the early controversies arose.

Firstly, Jesus repeatedly denied it.

So I'd be grateful if you'd state your view clearly for me: was he simply deluded about his own identity, or was he a conscientious and repeated liar?

And Paul too ─ when he distinguished between Jesus and God, was he being a fool? Or was he a rogue?

 

[Oeste]

I'm not concerned with what they liked to believe. I'm only concerned with the bible view of Jesus as God ─ and if Jesus is to be believed, and Paul, and whoever wrote 1 Timothy, Jesus was the envoy of God, probably in Paul's rather gnostic mind the demiurge, Jesus was not God.

Who here denies Jesus was an envoy to mankind? Show him and we can slay this heresy together!

But it's relevant that no Trinity doctrine existed in his day, since that makes the claim anachronistic, several centuries out of place.

Nah.

Biblical doctrines are based on scripture. If the scripture existed prior to the time of the doctrine, then the doctrine is not anachronistic. The Trinity is not based on scripture that didn’t exist at the time, it’s based on scripture that was.

As such, any assertion of anachronism is fatally flawed.

But not even the seeds of the Trinity concept existed before the third century.

3 quickies on this one:

1. The Trinity doctrine is solidly seeded in scripture.

2. I suggest reading Polycarp and Justin Martyr.

3. I appreciate your laudably inferred contention that the Trinity can't possibly be of pagan origin if its some sort of "3rd century Nicea construct" but the truth is neither premise “fits the case”.​

And given that the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense, it can't be compared to gravity, which is real and has, as we understand it, always existed.

You believe all scripture is nonsense, so I’m not at all surprised. The fact is, gravity was created by Jesus and he has always existed, whereas gravity has not.

The correct point is that no coherent concept of the Trinity has ever existed, not then and not now.

The correct point is that you don’t believe God has ever existed, not then and not now, and any Christology promulgated under such strictures on this forum is considered by you as “nonsense”.

Lastly, as we have already pointed out, scripture showed Jesus is God long before any of the early controversies arose.

Firstly, Jesus repeatedly denied it.

No, Blu denies it, not Jesus. Let’s not confuse or blur the two

So I'd be grateful if you'd state your view clearly for me: was he simply deluded about his own identity, or was he a conscientious and repeated liar?

I think you know my view, but if it escapes you we’ll need a much more basic discussion

And Paul too ─ when he distinguished between Jesus and God, was he being a fool? Or was he a rogue?

Neither, he was simply being correct. Jesus has a dual nature and he is distinct from the Father.

But now you've managed to validate scripture further by asking if Jesus was deluded or a liar, and if Paul was a fool or a rogue! (1 Corinthian 1:26-28; Isaiah 44:24-26; 1 Corinthians 2:12).

If we limit our conversations to fellow believers, this type of validation is not always possible. For that, we may owe the skeptics and atheists of the world a debt of gratitude.

 

[The Anointed]

How come Enoch saw the Son of man over and over; if Enoch is the Son of man? Did he see himself?

God Almighty the Father put His Words in Jesus. Jesus is the Word made flesh.

It clearly is to be inferred because in Revelation 1:17-18; the one speaking claims He was dead but is now alive forever.


I'm confused. So you're saying that ... the son of man would be Enoch? Let me know if I'm wrong.

Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, the living spirit within the bosom of Abraham to whom all the spirits of the righteous were gathered in the creation of the great and glorious simulacrum at the ends of this age, who is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us----- The Son of Man, The MOST HIGH in the creation who was born from the body of mankind and the only one who can die for the sins of the body in which he develops, just as all must pay the price for the sins of the body in which we develop.

The great and glorious simulacrum at the ends of the Age, who is also the blue-print for the new light beings who are to dwell on earth among mankind, dies in the process of involution in order to be the savior of we in evolution. This he does by releasing the spirits on who he had evolved, from the least to the greatest.

The man Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to the glorious Temple of God, was the least and the first to be released.

As we shall later see, Enoch was escorted to the very ends of time, and chosen as the successor to the Most-High, where he was translated, from a physical body to a body of brilliant and blinding light, where he was to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity. The word “CHRIST” means “The Anointed One.” Enoch was the one anointed by the Most High as his successor.

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah." Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

Enoch, the most important man in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face. [Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

And the Most High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

Hebrew 12: 24; You have come to Jesus, who arranged the new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that promises much better things than does the blood of righteous Abel.

It was to the living spirit of Enoch, that the righteous spirits of his post-flood descendants were gathered in the creation of the Great and glorious simulacrum at the ends of time, which Simulacrum is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and the blue-print of the new Temple of God [The glorious incorruptible bodies of Light] which are to replace his old temporary earthly tabernacle/tent [The Body of Mankind] as the ruler of the creation, of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, and that Simulacrum, which Enoch had become, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution. This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits that are He, from the least to the greatest, and the man Enoch from the old world that was destroyed by water was the first to be released, but not until he had learned through suffering to become perfect in his ascension and evolution, and was born again as the man Jesus.

1 Peter; 1: 20-21; He was chosen by God before the creation of the world. (Not the world that was destroyed by water, but this world which is destined to be destroyed by fire, before God creates for us a new heavens and a new earth) and was revealed in these last days for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from death and gave him glory; and so your faith and hope are fixed on God.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, who was taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation at the age of 365 is the unblemished Lamb of God.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" (The Son of God) resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

The Stone that the builders of the Jewish and Roman churches have rejected, turns out to be the most important stone of all.

The great flood, in which the body of Adam (Pre-flood mankind) was submerged in water and the new man Enoch (The post-flood body of mankind arose) was, according to 1st Peter 3: 21; a symbol of Baptism. Where the old physical man Adam, is submerged and the new spiritual man Enoch/Jesus arises.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all direct genetic descendants of Enoch, the only man redeemed from the previous world as spoken of by 2nd Peter 3: 5; as they are all descendants of Enoch’s six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion, and Giadad.

To equate the MAN Enoch, with the glorious simulacrum at the ends of time, who Enoch had become and who dies in the process of involution for the salvation of we in the process of evolution, would be like equating mankind with the organic molecules in the primeval sludge pools of organic material of the junior earth from which mankind had evolved.

It was the glorious simulacrum, ‘The Son of Man’ at the ends of time, (Of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone) who, unlike physical mankind did not have the powers of reproduction, who, from the ends of time, mentally descended into the day of Abraham, who chose him as his God, and in Abraham, was the living evolving spirit of Enoch as he was at that point in his evolution.

It was to Abraham, that the MOST HIGH in the creation, [The lesser Jahweh the Son of God] said, "In blessing I will bless you and in multiplying, I will multiply you." Our Saviour who offers up his immortal body for those who believe, multiplies by releasing the spirits on which he had evolved.

From that day forward, all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and any mistakes that they had made, were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch within the bosom of Abraham. Over they, the second death had no power.

Jesus was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom death had no more power. Jesus was who Enoch had become at that point in time of his evolution to become the glorious simulacrum=blue-print of the new androgynous body of light beings that evolve from mankind, who will dwell on earth among mankind.

The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

After Enoch in his ascension to the ends of time, had been in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) he was reborn on earth and revealed as the man Jesus in who were the spirits of the righteous over whom death had no more power.

John 14: 30; “I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know I love THE Father; that is why I do everything as he commands me.”

1st Peter 1: 19-21; but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

 

[The Anointed]

Continued from previous post.

Jesus, in who were the spirits of the righteous who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” HE was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

John 1: 12/13; “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [I Am Who I Am].”


And they, like our brother Jesus, who was the first born of the sons of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are born sons of God, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord, which descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say: “You are my son, today I have begotten thee.” [My chosen Heir and Successor.]


Jesus, is the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

 

[The Anointed]

Continued from previous post.

Jesus, in who were the spirits of the righteous who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” HE was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

John 1: 12/13; “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [I Am Who I Am].”


And they, like our brother Jesus, who was the first born of the sons of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are born sons of God, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord, which descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say: “You are my son, today I have begotten thee.” [My chosen Heir and Successor.]


Jesus, is the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

BUMP.

 

[Oeste]

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

Obviously your cannon is vastly different from that of the traditional, historic church. Which books do you included in your bible, and which ones are out?

BUMP.

How does this relate to thread theme?

 

[The Anointed]

Obviously your cannon is vastly different from that of the traditional, historic church. Which books do you included in your bible, and which ones are out?



How does this relate to thread theme?

Obviously! The Books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were cherished by the early Christians until the fourth century, when the Roman church of Emperor Constantine compiled a limited selection of the Holy Scriptures and the books of righteous Enoch were banned by such dogmatic authorities of that new church as Hilary, Jerome and Augustine until they finally passed out of circulation and were thought to have been lost for millennia.

The Book of Enoch remains one of the oldest extant mystical documents. It's referred to in the Hebrew Zobar, the epistle of Jude, and is considered by some as a very early draft of the New Testament.

The fact that Jude was allowed in the Roman biblical cannon to quote verbatim from the words of righteous Enoch as the word of God, then we also have been given the right to read, and quote from his words, as the words inspired of God.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.”

After Enoch, the Anointed successor to the throne of the Most High in the creation had been in the valley of man for three days (Thee thousand years) he was reborn on earth as the man Jesus.

 

[Oeste]

The fact that Jude was allowed in the Roman biblical cannon to quote verbatim from the words of righteous Enoch as the word of God, then we also have been given the right to read, and quote from his words, as the words inspired of God.

I agree everyone has the right to read and quote it if they want, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call the book of Enoch “…words inspired of God”. There’s just too much in the book I find suspect...but that would be a whole other thread.

We disagree on this matter which is fine. That’s what forums like this are for.

 

[The Anointed]

I agree everyone has the right to read and quote it if they want, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call the book of Enoch “…words inspired of God”. There’s just too much in the book I find suspect...but that would be a whole other thread.

We disagree on this matter which is fine. That’s what forums like this are for.

Luke 3: 35-36; states that Shelah is the son of Cainam/kainam, from where did Luke receive this information? certainly not from your OT which states that Shelah is the son of Arpachshad.

From where did Peter receive the information that the heavens are going to burn and disappear with a great hissing noise? Not from your OT.

From where did the apostles receive the information that the Sons of God who had abandoned their original habitat and came down to earth and defiled themselves with the daughters of man were bound with eternal chains and imprisoned in darkness until the Great day of Judgement? Not in you OT.

From where did Moses receive the regulation to choose a scape goat and have his brother Aaron place his hands on its head symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat which was then sent out to Azazel.

You will find the answers to all these questions in the words of righteous Enoch. That is, apart from Shelah being the son of Kainam.

From the book of Jubilees:
[Chapter 8] 1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, [1373 A.M.] in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, [1375 A.M.] and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, [1429 A.M.] in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year [1432 A.M.] he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

The Septuagint also reveals that Kainam is the father of Shelah.

 

[Oeste]

You will find the answers to all these questions in the words of righteous Enoch.

Of course I could. Here’s how it works:

I decide I want to write some scripture. I carefully quote Luke at 3:35-36 (leaving out any reference to Luke, of course), include any other references that can't be attributed to Old Testament scripture to make it all good, and for the coup de grâce add 105 more chapters of stuff that should be in scripture but for some strange reason got overlooked or left out. I then stamp “Enoch” on the cover and tell everyone here it is, the long lost “Book of Enoch”, and behold…Luke and other men of God are quoting from it!

Unfortunately, in my rush to create a 100% authentic, direct from God, Holy inspired scriptural masterpiece I’ve made a few mistakes, for example:

“And in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it, And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, And hell shall give back that which it owes.” (Enoch 51:1 or 50:1 depending on version)​

Folk start wondering why Enoch, the grandfather of Noah, is quoted using Greek constructs like “hell”... a word never mentioned in the Old Testament because Hellenism wasn’t around prior to the flood.

There’s a long litany of “gotchas” in Enoch that explain why it’s not found in the Tanakh or the Christian canon, but who knows? Perhaps there's actually a Spirit guided book of Enoch out there, lost somewhere, waiting for us to discover as soon as God gets around to it. I just see this “Enoch” as the likely production of a later age rather than a direct notation passed from “generation to generation”.

Enoch is an interesting read but totally off thread theme.