So Jesus is not God?

[metis]

Discussion and debates about the trinity always end with the trinity protagonist ‘running away’.

Why?

Since I'm such a "protagonist", maybe consider putting me on your "ignore list" so I don't waste your time.

While you're at it, please look up the word "essence" as you clearly do not understand it and how it has been applied in the scriptures. Here: Essence - Wikipedia or here: Definition of essence | Dictionary.com

 

[Soapy]

Since I'm such a "protagonist", maybe consider putting me on your "ignore list" so I don't waste your time.

While you're at it, please look up the word "essence" as you clearly do not understand it and how it has been applied in the scriptures. Here: Essence - Wikipedia or here: Definition of essence | Dictionary.com

No no, running away just shows you are really not what you claim to be. What you show is that you cannot justify what you claim you believe and so asking me to stop speaking with you offers a way out of your dilemma of false belief.

In fact, it is YOU who should put ME on your ‘ignore’ list... virtually all Trinitarians I speak with end up just saying, paraphrasically, ‘Jesus is almighty God’ and then run away after I point out that Jesus said, ‘I did not call myself “God”, I only said I was the Son of God’. And also, Jesus said that his Father was ‘The ONLY TRUE GOD’.

it’s kinda weird that with the evidence from his own mouth that he was SENT BY GOD, Trinitarians STILL claim that Jesus IS GOD... This makes Jesus a liar... Trinitarians are claiming that Jesus lied to his disciples and the Jews and Gentiles.

This is how other faiths can easily dissect Christianity and claim it is false... because Trinitarians claims are so easily dashed and sunk like a millstone in the waters.

Here’s a point:
“Son of God” does not mean “Is God”...
It means someone who is ‘Doong the works of the Father with pleasure, with honour, with pleasure, and completely as he is shown to do!’

Adam, before he sinned, did exactly what God commanded him to do in that manner. But pride got hold of him through his wife, Eve, snd he fell to sin. Adam WAS ‘Son of God’ (Luke 3:38) but fell away, therefore ANOTHER was brought up to replace him... a SECOND ADAM... but not only second but ‘THE LAST ADAM’... Jesus. So, when Jesus PROVED HIMSELF SINLESS AND HOLY God spoke about him saying:

• This is my son in whom I am well pleased

If Jesus was almighty God there WOULD be no need to ...er...GOD... to say, ‘I am well pleased with him!!’...

Also, on the holy mountain, the disciples with him heard this concerning Jesus:

• ‘This day I have become your Father and you have BECOME MY SON’

This, you should recognise, is an ADOPTION STATEMENT.....Yet trinity claims Jesus was a son from eternity... A SON??? That means Jesus was procreated from God... yet scriptures tells us there is no such thing as procreation in the spirit world!!!!!
There is CREATION ... creation of Spirits, the Angels... but Jesus is not a CREATED SPIRIT either else it WOULD be as JW’s say... and that ain’t true because scriptures also says:

• To which of the angels did God ever say...

So we are left with only one option: Jesus is a human BUT BORN in the SAME MANNER as the FIRST ADAM, which is: SINLESS AND HOLY BY THE BREATH OF GOD: the Holy Spirit.

Humankind is PROCREATED through the Male, the sperm. The BODY of the person is the INERT EGG in the woman. Adam’s body was the INERT DUST of the earth (bare in mind that Moses did not understand full medical science!!!) and the ENLIVENING ELEMENT was the BREATH OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, Now, similarly, Jesus’ body was an inert element, which was enlivened by the OVERSHADOWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.

In both cases, since the spirit is PURE and Holy, the creation (not PROCREATION) is also PURE AND HOLY.

Such purity and holiness qualifies the person born in such a manner as ‘SON OF GOD’. And anyone, everyone, as Jesus says, who is BORN AGAIN BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD BECOMES A CHILD OF GOD.

 

[JerryMyers]

Why would Christians believe Jesus is God when God Almighty Himself has never say Jesus is God the Son nor has Jesus himself ever said he is God the son too ??

 

[Soapy]

Why would Christians believe Jesus is God when God Almighty Himself has never say Jesus is God the Son nor has Jesus himself ever said he is God the son too ??

I’m sad to say that one of my best schooldays friends is wholly ‘Trinitarian’ (he never uses that term, by the way!) I try to have discussions snd debates with him when I get the chance but he always seems to evade the subject preferring to just quote the likes of John 1:1-3 and ‘Jesus said “I Am”’ despite which every literate person knows is just the present tense of the verb ‘to be’... and meant represent the Hebrew name of Almighty God: “YHWH”. But we know that this means that HE NEVER CHANGES... that is what ‘I Am’ was meant to mean.., however, we see that Jesus CHANGES MANY TIMES in his life... HE BECOMES... which is not “YHWH”. Some one or something (an entity) that eternally ‘IS’ cannot CHANGE!!

• Jesus is BORN (trinity doesn’t deny this yet squirms while desperately trying to deny it: a paradox!!!) Why do they celebrate CHRISTMAS if they refuse the BIRTH OF CHRIST??? (Ooh... Wait for the ‘Clever’ disingenuous responses!!)
• Jesus is ‘Son of God’ yet paradoxically is supposedly the SAME GOD he is the Son of
• Jesus declares he is less than his Father: YHWH, yet Trinitarians claim, paradoxically, that Jesus is LYING because they say he is not less than the Father. Note: ‘They say’ ... not ‘Jesus says..!’
• Jesus LEARNS from ALMIGHTY GOD despite, by trinity, he IS ALMIGHTY GOD (strangely enough, the mass majority of trinity believers NEVER call Jesus “ALMIGHTY GOD”... they just say, “God”!!! Why???
• Jesus REPRESENTS GOD on earth. Yes, that is true... BUT AN AMBASSADOR representing his KING does not claim to be that King he is representing. True... he is the ‘WORD OF THE KING’ because he speaks the very words he was TAUGHT AND COMMANDED to speak to the people... Being ‘The Word of...’ does not make one HE whom gave him the word to give to the people (Rev 1:1)
• Jesus suffers... Jesus is frustrated... Jesus is flogged... Jesus is humiliated (in Jewish eyes) by being “Hung on a ‘tree’” (Cursed is he who is hung on a tree!) A Cross, a Stake... I’m not arguing on this issue. Both are MADE OF WOOD ... which is from a tree!!!
• Jesus DIES: I find it a paradox (yes.. that word again!) that Trinitarians celebrate Jesus DYING yet DENY that he died.... Please be on your guard reading the Gospel of John. It’s intriguing but wayward in many parts!!
• Jesus GAINS, as a reward, the earthly throne of King David... yet, Para... yeah... he is supposed to have CREATED the world ... you can’t figure it.... Almighty God BECOMES - AFTER suffering and paying for the absolving of his creations great sin - Sin of Adam - by DYING - the THRONE (Rulership) over the creation HE CREATED??? Yet the Father (and the Holy Spirit (who?)) MAINTAIN AND RETAIN rulership over the GREATER KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.... wow, go figure!!!!!!!!!

You know, these, and much more, never garner a genuine response from my trinitarian colleagues... it strains the relationship between us but we try to keep it lighthearted nonetheless!! It’s much harder online because the Trinitarians just stop responding when they see they are wrong and too humiliated to admit it / afterall, when they agree they are wrong, where are they to go? They cannot go back to their pastor, bishop, clergy, priest,... and say, “Sorry, I’ve seen the true light that came into the world - I can no longer believe in your false ideological doctrine!!”

 

[JerryMyers]

I’m sad to say that one of my best schooldays friends is wholly ‘Trinitarian’ (he never uses that term, by the way!) I try to have discussions snd debates with him when I get the chance but he always seems to evade the subject preferring to just quote the likes of John 1:1-3 and ‘Jesus said “I Am”’ despite which every literate person knows is just the present tense of the verb ‘to be’... and meant represent the Hebrew name of Almighty God: “YHWH”. But we know that this means that HE NEVER CHANGES... that is what ‘I Am’ was meant to mean.., however, we see that Jesus CHANGES MANY TIMES in his life... HE BECOMES... which is not “YHWH”. Some one or something (an entity) that eternally ‘IS’ cannot CHANGE!!

• Jesus is BORN (trinity doesn’t deny this yet squirms while desperately trying to deny it: a paradox!!!) Why do they celebrate CHRISTMAS if they refuse the BIRTH OF CHRIST??? (Ooh... Wait for the ‘Clever’ disingenuous responses!!)
• Jesus is ‘Son of God’ yet paradoxically is supposedly the SAME GOD he is the Son of
• Jesus declares he is less than his Father: YHWH, yet Trinitarians claim, paradoxically, that Jesus is LYING because they say he is not less than the Father. Note: ‘They say’ ... not ‘Jesus says..!’
• Jesus LEARNS from ALMIGHTY GOD despite, by trinity, he IS ALMIGHTY GOD (strangely enough, the mass majority of trinity believers NEVER call Jesus “ALMIGHTY GOD”... they just say, “God”!!! Why???
• Jesus REPRESENTS GOD on earth. Yes, that is true... BUT AN AMBASSADOR representing his KING does not claim to be that King he is representing. True... he is the ‘WORD OF THE KING’ because he speaks the very words he was TAUGHT AND COMMANDED to speak to the people... Being ‘The Word of...’ does not make one HE whom gave him the word to give to the people (Rev 1:1)
• Jesus suffers... Jesus is frustrated... Jesus is flogged... Jesus is humiliated (in Jewish eyes) by being “Hung on a ‘tree’” (Cursed is he who is hung on a tree!) A Cross, a Stake... I’m not arguing on this issue. Both are MADE OF WOOD ... which is from a tree!!!
• Jesus DIES: I find it a paradox (yes.. that word again!) that Trinitarians celebrate Jesus DYING yet DENY that he died.... Please be on your guard reading the Gospel of John. It’s intriguing but wayward in many parts!!
• Jesus GAINS, as a reward, the earthly throne of King David... yet, Para... yeah... he is supposed to have CREATED the world ... you can’t figure it.... Almighty God BECOMES - AFTER suffering and paying for the absolving of his creations great sin - Sin of Adam - by DYING - the THRONE (Rulership) over the creation HE CREATED??? Yet the Father (and the Holy Spirit (who?)) MAINTAIN AND RETAIN rulership over the GREATER KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.... wow, go figure!!!!!!!!!

You know, these, and much more, never garner a genuine response from my trinitarian colleagues... it strains the relationship between us but we try to keep it lighthearted nonetheless!! It’s much harder online because the Trinitarians just stop responding when they see they are wrong and too humiliated to admit it / afterall, when they agree they are wrong, where are they to go? They cannot go back to their pastor, bishop, clergy, priest,... and say, “Sorry, I’ve seen the true light that came into the world - I can no longer believe in your false ideological doctrine!!”

Well, trinity and original sin are man-made doctrines as no prophets of God (including Jesus) ever preach these doctrines in their lifetimes.

 

[Soapy]

Well, trinity and original sin are man-made doctrines as no prophets of God (including Jesus) ever preach these doctrines in their lifetimes.

Maybe the term, ‘original sin’ has been so much abused that it has lists its purposeful meaning.
This is convenient not only to Trinitarians but to those who cannot believe what they read in the scriptures:

• If you support the scriptures then believe the scriptures
• If you don’t believe the scriptures then don’t argue against it
• If you believe the scriptures is not complete or has dishonest parts to it then you are near the truth... you just need to understand where the disingenuous issues are and find the truth about it
• If you claim to be ‘Christian’ then don’t invent your own ideology and express it fervently - by all means question a potential alternative but don’t press it against common sense reasoning that is not in line with the overall theme of the scriptures

Mind you, ‘Christianity’ has been hijacked by trinitarian and any three-person-one-God pagan belief ideology but no one can inject a new name (do we need one) for the TRUTH of Jesus Christ.

My pet ‘hate’ is the frustration with the trinity fraternity in getting them to express a compiled totality of their belief system from end to end: what is the purpose of everything scripturally....?

They refuse to comply!! Always refuse to answer!!

Me, I happily express my believe to them but they claim they don’t read it because it’s too long for them!!!

Too long? How do they read huge swathes of text claiming that Jesus is God and how the three are one God yet three people while claiming that ‘GOD’ who is ONE told Jesus who is that ONE GOD something... they will read endless amount of stuff they believe supports their fallacy but refuse to read the truth... it’s as if they cannot stomach the truth - ‘and prefer the lie’!!

Simple question:

• What is the purpose of Jesus acquiring, by way of a reward, the earthly throne of his ancestor, king David, if he is almighty God... Almighty God who is ruler and king over ALL THINGS ETERNALLY?

My point: Surely the point is that a created humankind should become FATHER of a kingdom that is physical - be its eternal ruler from the time of the judgement? He has proved himself worthy to rule as its king... He earned it... What does an eternal almighty, omnipotent, omniscient spirit need to prove to his own creation?

Trinity persons will not discuss these issues - and for obvious reasons.

 

[TiggerII]

Despite Trinitarians finding 'proofs' in the Gospel of John of Jesus being equally God with the Father, they can't explain why John clearly states that the purpose of his Gospel is to declare [not the blockbuster, essential information that Jesus is God] that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God! - John 20:30-31.

How could he have possibly 'overlooked' his other statements if they really meant Jesus was God???

These other 'proofs' are a result of misconstruing the meaning or mistranslating such statements (which unlike John 20: 30 - 31) have alternate renderings or interpretations.

 

[kjw47]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

The teachings of Jesus say--The Father is the only true God(John 17:1-6,26--The one who sent Jesus is the only true God according to Jesus-John 5:30-The Father sent Jesus. That name mentioned in verse 6,26= YHVH(Jehovah)
Hallowed be thy* Father) name - YHVH*Jehovah)
John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- Jesus teaches he has a God, his Father. While on earth and back in heaven.
Paul teaches only the Father is God-1Corinthians 8:6

A capitol G God in the last line of John 1:1 is 100% error. Misleading 2 billion into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily. All instilled centuries ago.

 

[samtonga43]

There is a range of belief about the "Godhead". An adult will allow others to find their own truth.

Hi
I don't post here very much, but I've always wondered about this 'multiple truth' thing. How can there be more than one truth? Thanks.

 

[MNoBody]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

people are not what they are alleged to be.
people are not in the plight that gets depicted by all the fear-mongers [who play on those "fears].
thus the whole remedy for the alleged problem is specious at its inception, misleading and pejorative.
the whole thing smells of psychological bullying, coercion, intimidation or otherwise, extortion.

 

[Muffled]

The Trinitarian concept does not put God "in pieces".

Ditto, and I have.

I believe when the Trinity is viewed rationally that it can be seen as one but many view the Trinity irrationally and effectively divide God into pieces.

 

[Muffled]

Hi
I don't post here very much, but I've always wondered about this 'multiple truth' thing. How can there be more than one truth? Thanks.

I believe there is only one truth but there are a multitude of beliefs.

 

[Muffled]

Why would Christians believe Jesus is God when God Almighty Himself has never say Jesus is God the Son nor has Jesus himself ever said he is God the son too ??

I believe that is patently false. Both the Father (God) and Jesus (God) have said that Jesus is God.

 

[samtonga43]

I believe there is only one truth but there are a multitude of beliefs.

Well said. Makes sense to me.

 

[metis]

I believe when the Trinity is viewed rationally that it can be seen as one but many view the Trinity irrationally and effectively divide God into pieces.

I see. So, yours is "rational" and anyone who disagrees with you is "irrational".

 

[moorea944]

I believe that is patently false. Both the Father (God) and Jesus (God) have said that Jesus is God.

Where does the Creator of the Universe say that Jesus is God or that Jesus is the Heavenly Father? In the NT, doesnt most of the letters by Paul and Peter start out saying that Jesus has a God and a Heavenly Father in Heaven? Wasnt Moses told in Deut 18 that He was going to raise up someone like Moses and that God was going to tell him what to do and say? Really not sure where this trinity thing is coming into play.......

In your eyes, why does Jesus "have to" be God? In 1 Cor 11v3 tells us about the Godhead and that God is higher and over Jesus. But in your trinity thing, arent they both the same and co-equal? Actually, does anyone understand the trinity?

 

[JerryMyers]

I believe that is patently false. Both the Father (God) and Jesus (God) have said that Jesus is God.

No, that's the perception of the Christians. Can you quote the verse(s) where God Almighty and/or Jesus claiming or implying Jesus is God the Son ??

 

[Soapy]

I believe when the Trinity is viewed rationally that it can be seen as one but many view the Trinity irrationally and effectively divide God into pieces.

What is meant by “View the trinity rationally”?

Do you mean that it is should be viewed ‘without common sense and due reality’?

There are so many ‘views’ from the trinitarian camps that anyone can claim that Truth is false and that anything said from scriptures that shows that Almighty God is a SINGLE BEING who is ‘All Mighty’ is NOT TRUE... but that ‘He’ is ‘Three persons’ ...

Trinitarians agree that:

• ‘Almighty God is not composed of parts’

Who believes this?

Is this true?

If it is your belief that Almighty God is not composed of parts then it is true that He cannot be divided... Do you believe that?

If He cannot be divided then a ‘rational’ questions could be:

• How did one part of Him BECOME Flesh and TAKE ON SIN?

Of course, the trinitarian will DENY the question YET still claim it as FACT!!

Is this ‘RATIONAL’? Trinity rationality?

 

[Soapy]

Can anyone here ‘Define’ what they mean by ‘God’, such as to make sense the likes of:

1. ‘God taught Jesus...’
2. ‘God raised up Jesus and made him both Lord and Christ’
3. ‘God said, “I will send my SERVANT who will do my Will”’?

My guess is that no trinitarian will answer with any kind of integrity nor any kind of “Rational” reasoning!

Because they cannot answer? True!!!

 

[Muffled]

I see. So, yours is "rational" and anyone who disagrees with you is "irrational".

I believe the fact that a person disagrees with me automatically makes them irrational since I am rational. BTW I rarely find people on here who know how to make rational arguments. Mostly I find people will say it must be true because they believe it is.