So Much for Promises

[columbus]

I thought that was what you were doing.

Which part of

34 Truly I tell you, this generation ["This people" "The people who are living" "The people of this day" "The people living now" "The people of this time"] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

do you think is Skwim's "opinion"? He is quoting the Bible.
Tom

 

[Rational Agnostic]

In Matthew 24, Jesus warns about the future and the end of time when everything will be destroyed and he will return. In verse 34 he even says when this will happen.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation ["This people" "The people who are living" "The people of this day" "The people living now" "The people of this time"] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
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So what's going on? None of this came true. Was Jesus lying? Was he mistaken? Did he change his mind?



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These are the verses that initially led to my deconversion as a teen. Also, similar to this are Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 16:28. Clearly failed prophecies, but the apologists' attempts to explain them away are amusing.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Which part of

do you think is Skwim's "opinion"? He is quoting the Bible.
Tom

This is also a common response. A few years ago I brought Matthew 10:23 (a similar verse) to the attention of a well-known street preacher and evangelist who is supposed to know the bible. In response, he reached for his bible and muttered about not knowing what translation I had. Soon (to his embarrasment) he realized that the passage states the same thing in all translations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

These are the verses that initially led to my deconversion as a teen. Also, similar to this are Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 16:28. Clearly failed prophecies, but the apologists' attempts to explain them away are amusing.

When believers won't admit that as obvious and non-threatening prophesy such as the Tyre prophecy is a failure what are the odds that they can be honest about one that directly threatens their faith?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Did you ever look up what the understanding is? Or did you just post it because you want it to say what you want it to say?

The understanding is what the verse says, and the verse is a failed prophecy. The same prophecy is found in Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 16:28, and the meaning is even clearer in those verses.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

When believers won't admit that as obvious and non-threatening prophesy such as the Tyre prophecy is a failure what are the odds that they can be honest about one that directly threatens their faith?

Not very high. Although I do admire the honesty of CS Lewis who admitted that these are the most embarrasing verses in the bible. I don't know why he decided to trust the rest of the bible after admitting these prophecies failed though.

 

[sun rise]

There is no way to tell whether time is simply a construct of our minds. In reality, everything could be happening and over simultaneously. Just because many minds agree that they experience the passage of time similarly doesn't mean that we're not just looking at the fiction of our brains. Our senses actually having nothing to do with the perceived objects. There are countless wavelengths of energy and our brain decides to ignore almost all of it, but some of it shows up as sound, light, heat, or invisible. It's sort of intriguing to ponder at why such a small subset of data is relevant and the rest isn't. It'd be pretty good to know when you were getting hit with deadly radiation so you could DODGE.

Anyway, in my experience the Bible is written from the point of acceptance of people a long time ago. (Whatever time means, perhaps it's better to think of it as APPARENT time.) It'd be a tragic error to take anything said too literally.

Time might indeed be illusion according to some theories. It's behind a paywall but https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-time-an-illusion/ and this as well https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-04558-7 among many others.

 

[Kenny]

Which part of

do you think is Skwim's "opinion"? He is quoting the Bible.
Tom

Quoting is one thing... interpreting is another,.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quoting is one thing... interpreting is another,.

How else would you interpret that and what is your justification for such an interpretation? "My myth is false if I do not interpret it this way" is never a valid reason for an interpretation. That verse is rather straight forward and I do not know how you could reinterpret it.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I doubt that Jesus lied or made a mistake. It is probable that we just don't have the story straight.

I've dug through lots of ideological disagreements. Fortunate is the man whose denomination tells him how to interpret something like this.

Around 2001, I desperately wanted to go to Bible College and was greatly dismayed to find that some of the courses were a sort of review of hundreds of sermons that you would be expected to use when preaching. No original thought there.

Also, the Shia Muslims believe there were 12 Imams (Pastor, or Rabbi) and that one of them is still alive and waiting for the return of Isa PBUH (Jesus) to help him to make sense of the mess here. So maybe in the NT, Jesus was just saying that some people from that generation would survive until his return? I think I may have heard this preached in one of those off beat Christian Churches ???

 

[Subduction Zone]

I doubt that Jesus lied or made a mistake. It is probable that we just don't have the story straight.

I've dug through lots of ideological disagreements. Fortunate is the man whose denomination tells him how to interpret something like this.

Around 2001, I desperately wanted to go to Bible College and was greatly dismayed to find that some of the courses were a sort of review of hundreds of sermons that you would be expected to use when preaching. No original thought there.

Also, the Shia Muslims believe there were 12 Imams (Pastor, or Rabbi) and that one of them is still alive and waiting for the return of Isa PBUH (Jesus) to help him to make sense of the mess here. So maybe in the NT, Jesus was just saying that some people from that generation would survive until his return? I think I may have heard this preached in one of those off beat Christian Churches ???

Or Jesus was just a man and many of the stories about him were made up after he died.

 

[Skwim]

I thought that was what you were doing.

I don't have a current theology, just questions about Christian theology.

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[sun rise]

I don't have a current theology, just questions about Christian theology.

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You're attacking biblical literalism not the theology of how Christians interpret that verse. I could easily attack some of the theology here, for example http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/24-34.htm

 

[Skwim]

You're attacking biblical literalism not the theology of how Christians interpret that verse.

Biblical literalism is the theological view that one should regard the contents of the Bible as literally true and "inerrant". The text is not to be interpreted as allegory, literature, or mythology, and is without fault in its claims; unimpeachably true in all matters.
source​

Also see Biblical hermeneutics

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[InChrist]

In Matthew 24, Jesus warns about the future and the end of time when everything will be destroyed and he will return. In verse 34 he even says when this will happen.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation ["This people" "The people who are living" "The people of this day" "The people living now" "The people of this time"] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
​

So what's going on? None of this came true. Was Jesus lying? Was he mistaken? Did he change his mind?



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As usual, you are taking the verse out of it's context. Jesus was speaking about future events and the signs of the end of the age (which the disciples had asked Him about Matt. 24:3). When He said,
"this generation" , He was not referring to His contemporaries, but to the future generation that would see the signs He was speaking of, the generation of people alive in the future when the events of Matthew Chapters 24-25 take place. It is the generation that sees these signs which will not pass away until they have all happened.
Jesus did not change His mind, was not mistaken, nor lying. What's going on is that you pick verses out of their context on purpose to find fault with the scriptures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As usual, you are taking the verse out of it's context. Jesus was speaking about future events and the signs of the end of the age (which the disciples had asked Him about Matt. 24:3). When He said,
"this generation" , He was not referring to His contemporaries, but to the future generation that would see the signs He was speaking of, the generation of people alive in the future when the events of Matthew Chapters 24-25 take place. It is the generation that sees these signs which will not pass away until they have all happened.
Jesus did not change His mind, was not mistaken, nor lying. What's going on is that you pick verses out of their context on purpose to find fault with the scriptures.

Nope, read it again. He was clearly talking to the people present. There is no excuse for your reinterpretation except for the fact that it is a terribly failed prophecy.

 

[Daniel1]

In Matthew 24, Jesus warns about the future and the end of time when everything will be destroyed and he will return. In verse 34 he even says when this will happen.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation ["This people" "The people who are living" "The people of this day" "The people living now" "The people of this time"] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
​

So what's going on? None of this came true. Was Jesus lying? Was he mistaken? Did he change his mind?
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When Bible prophecy speaks of “this generation,” it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.” History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.—Mt 23:36.

Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. So his comment about “this generation” logically had an application down to 70 C.E. However, he was also using the word “generation” with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events during his presence.—Mt 24.

 

[Jumi]

So what's going on? None of this came true. Was Jesus lying? Was he mistaken? Did he change his mind?

Blame the author of Matthew.

 

[Apologes]

Show me an apologist site that does not lie for Jesus.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org

I’m a member of the clergy.

Which denomination?

Not very high. Although I do admire the honesty of CS Lewis who admitted that these are the most embarrasing verses in the bible. I don't know why he decided to trust the rest of the bible after admitting these prophecies failed though.

Lewis was a proponent of mere christianity which doesn't need to include the doctrine of biblical inerrancy.

 

[Skwim]

As usual, you are taking the verse out of it's context. Jesus was speaking about future events and the signs of the end of the age (which the disciples had asked Him about Matt. 24:3). When He said,
"this generation" , He was not referring to His contemporaries, but to the future generation that would see the signs He was speaking of, the generation of people alive in the future when the events of Matthew Chapters 24-25 take place. It is the generation that sees these signs which will not pass away until they have all happened.
Jesus did not change His mind, was not mistaken, nor lying. What's going on is that you pick verses out of their context on purpose to find fault with the scriptures.

Tale a look at what I added in brackets to Matthew 24:34 in my OP:"This people" "The people who are living" "The people of this day" "The people living now" "The people of this time." These and others are all alternate versions of γενεά (genea) or "generations" given in other Bibles. Not one of them hint the event will take place in future generations. In fact they pin down the time of the event quite nicely. So, not only doesn't your word carry any weight, which is all you've presented, but other scholars and translators in effect say you're wrong.

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