So, What Happened, Jesus?

[Enoch07]

Oh my.....please don't think that.

It's cool no worries. I was never meant for this world anyways. I stick out like a sore thumb. I've done my time and duty to God, here on this miserable rock called Earth, and I am ready to go home. I'll keep taking my meds and stay alive as long as God wills it, but I'm ready to go at any point He deems it so.

 

[Skwim]

What happened Jesus???
Did you lie, Jesus???
They are all dead and turned into dust and nothing happened!!!!
View attachment 28169

Is it possible that a person is dead but considered alive in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Is it possible also that a person is alive but considered dead in their eyes?
What is truly be dead and what is truly alive?

Did Jesus lie?

1 Peter 2:22 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Christ did not sin
or ever tell a lie.

Luke 8:40-56 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Everyone had been waiting for Jesus, and when he came back, a crowd was there to welcome him. Just then the man in charge of the Jewish meeting place came and knelt down in front of Jesus. His name was Jairus, and he begged Jesus to come to his home because his twelve-year-old child was dying. She was his only daughter.

View attachment 28170

While Jesus was on his way, people were crowding all around him. In the crowd was a woman who had been bleeding for twelve years. She had spent everything she had on doctors, but none of them could make her well.

As soon as she came up behind Jesus and barely touched his clothes, her bleeding stopped.

“Who touched me?” Jesus asked.

While everyone was denying it, Peter said, “Master, people are crowding all around and pushing you from every side.”

But Jesus answered, “Someone touched me, because I felt power going out from me.” The woman knew that she could not hide, so she came trembling and knelt down in front of Jesus. She told everyone why she had touched him and that she had been healed right away.

Jesus said to the woman, “You are now well because of your faith. May God give you peace!”

While Jesus was speaking, someone came from Jairus' home and said, “Your daughter has died! Why bother the teacher anymore?”

When Jesus heard this, he told Jairus, “Don’t worry! Have faith, and your daughter will get well.”

Jesus went into the house, but he did not let anyone else go with him, except Peter, John, James, and the girl’s father and mother. Everyone was crying and weeping for the girl. But Jesus said, “The child isn’t dead. She is just asleep.” The people laughed at him because they knew she was dead.

Jesus took hold of the girl’s hand and said, “Child, get up!” She came back to life and got right up. Jesus told them to give her something to eat. Her parents were surprised, but Jesus ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

Oh uh.... are we going to do this again MJFlores?

.

 

[Estro Felino]

Worshiping words written by men and believing they come from God can be very illusory....

after all...when I try to let Christian fundamentalists understand that I am living proof that intelligent design or other Creationist stuff is fancifulness, they still don't want to get it.

 

[blü 2]

Sure, but you do realize that 1 millisecond and 1,000,000 years are exactly the same to God. So if He says soon, it could be just about any amount of time. Relativity is great isn't it!

Certainly apologetics is a game anyone can play, but those play it best never include a truth requirement.

'A thousand years is but a day' gives a ratio for God's time sense of 365,250:1, close enough. That's ten orders of magnitude under your claim of 3.15576 e16:1. Both can't be right. Where did God make the claim you just made?

 

[Skwim]

But it was promised in three gospels that it would happen in the lifetime of some of the audience (and apologies to @Skwim for repeating some of what he already said):

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”​

I respectfully but emphatically disagree. It says plainly that it'll happen SOON.

As is underlined by the fact that Mark (c. 75 CE) posits it as urgent and immediate, Matthew and Luke (80s CE) repeat that synoptically, but by the time John (c. 100 CE) is written it's obviously a dud, so he avoids mentioning it.
The text says nothing of the kind. Biblical Israel magically connected to modern Israel is pure invention, pretend prophecy, finding a portrait of Donald Trump on a slice of watermelon. So I take it you're joking.

It would also be embarrassing for Christians, wouldn't it? ─ considering their long long history of active antisemitism?

The apologetic tap dancing in the thread isn't as bad as I expected, but the varied assertions, fabrications, and digressions---some, outright goofy---are still kind of interesting.

.

 

[Enoch07]

Certainly apologetics is a game anyone can play, but those play it best never include a truth requirement.

'A thousand years is but a day' gives a ratio for God's time sense of 365,250:1, close enough. That's ten orders of magnitude under your claim of 3.15576 e16:1. Both can't be right. Where did God make the claim you just made?

There is no apologetics here.

You just missed the point entirely.

Closed minded folk have no imagination and are so boring to deal with. /sigh

The point is 1 millisecond, 1,000,000 year, 10,000,000 years, 100,000,000 years, infinity = all the same to God.

But hey you did some good math on a calculator, good for you!

 

[blü 2]

Is it possible that a person is dead but considered alive in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Not unless they're both unaware of what 'dead' means.

Is it possible also that a person is alive but considered dead in their eyes?

If they can get it wrong one way, they can get it wrong both ways, I guess.

What is truly be dead

To be truly dead is to have undergone the irreversible failure of the body's biochemical systems that sustain life.

and what is truly alive?

For humans, it's to have the body's biochemical systems working sufficiently.

Did Jesus lie?

Did Jesus exist in history? If so, he may have lied, he may have been mistaken, or he may have been misquoted.

Christ did not sin or ever tell a lie.

Even if that statement itself were accurate, and we have no reason to think it is, it says nothing about never making a mistake, or never being misquoted.

Jairus

Why do you think such a report is true? And were it true, why would not the explanation that the child self-evidently would have recovered anyway, be hugely more probable than a miracle?

 

[blü 2]

1 millisecond, 1,000,000 year, 10,000,000 years, 100,000,000 years, infinity = all the same to God.

So God has no concept of time, you say. That makes the OT look pretty silly, having him wander round in spacetime, but probably that's just stories, eh?

 

[Enoch07]

So God has no concept of time, you say. That makes the OT look pretty silly, having him wander round in spacetime, but probably that's just stories, eh?

Makes perfect sense when you understand how time works.

Perhaps you think of time as a 2 dimensional string that only goes in one direction (forward) maybe with a slight curve eh?

I see time as a 3 dimensional blanket. God can be at any and all points of that blanket at will. So yes time doesn't exist for God the way we perceive it. Even my understanding of it does it a disjustice. Considering Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and Stephen Hawking view time similarly to me, I'd say that's pretty good company from a scientific perspective.

Here is something for ya to chew on. Multiverse - Wikipedia

 

[MJFlores]

Oh uh.... are we going to do this again MJFlores?

.

Like Steve Rogers said:

 

[MJFlores]

Did Jesus exist in history?

Why do you think such a report is true? And were it true, why would not the explanation that the child self-evidently would have recovered anyway, be hugely more probable than a miracle?

I have taken notes of your side comments but I'm interested with your words which ended in a question mark.

With regards if Jesus exist in history.
I know he exists and seated at the right hand of God in heaven.
But if you wanted some History better ask the historians
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence

How about another miracle story, kids?

John 11:1-44 New International Version (NIV)
Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.

Jesus wept.

Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”

Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

===
The usual understanding that if a man dies, he becomes a lifeless body and decompose.
The body breaks down and becomes part of the Earth. Very true.

However, in the eyes of the Lord Jesus - the author of Life.
The dead are just asleep
We will all die [sleep] and we will one day be awaken
It doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Irreligious, Pagan - as long as you are human, you will wake from the grave - to be judged at the Day of Judgement.

And who else will wake you up than the Lord Jesus Christ who woke Lazarus.

 

[blü 2]

Makes perfect sense when you understand how time works.

No doubt, if only anyone knew how time 'works'.

Perhaps you think of time as a 2 dimensional string that only goes in one direction (forward) maybe with a slight curve eh?

Nope.

I see time as a 3 dimensional blanket.

So duration occurs in three directions, giving six dimensions altogether, you say?

That isn't my view.

(There was a paper 15 or 20 years ago on there being two temporal dimensions, and concluding ─ from the maths that followed from whatever axioms were postulated ─ that the difference, from our PoV, would be small, but either proposing or inviting experiments that might detect something. As far as I'm aware the rest is silence.)

God can be at any and all points of that blanket at will.

Do you mean that God can be at any point of spacetime at will?

If God is omnipresent then God has always been present at every point in spacetime from start to end, so already knows the history of the universe from memory. If God is omniscient then [he] already knew what he saw there. If God is perfect, then [he] could have perfectly guessed it all anyway. And of course humans can't have freewill; they can only ever do exactly what an omniscient God knew and intended back before [he] made the universe (which being omnipotent [he] made exactly in accordance with [his] wishes). There is not the tiniest chance of any other possibility.

And God will never intervene in the universe again, because being perfect [he]'s already perfectly enacted all his intentions.

Omni gods are a silly notion, aren't they.

 

[blü 2]

I have taken notes of your side comments but I'm interested with your words which ended in a question mark.

The words ending with a question mark were questions for you to answer. I repeat what I said last time ─ if you can't answer a question, just say so. Don't prance around evading and delaying please.

With regards if Jesus exist in history.
I know he exists and seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

How will you demonstrate to me that your statement is an accurate statement about reality?

But if you wanted some History better ask the historians
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence

I'm familiar with the arguments. It's clear that neither Paul nor the gospel writers had the faintest idea a biography for an historical Jesus. Mark made his up by devising a plot that linked purported messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, Matthew and Luke copied his outline but invented entirely different Jesuses, and so on. I accept there may have been an historical and fully human Jesus, but if there was, we know nothing about him, not even his message. (Though if there was, the 'physician heal thyself' scene, the 'a prophet is not without honor except' scene and his unrelenting contempt for his mother (one scene only excepted) may be echoes of him.) Indeed, if Paul is to be believed, his name wasn't even Jesus till after his death. There is no clincher either for or against such an historical Jesus.

How about another miracle story, kids?

Again I ask you, which is more probable?

A miracle?
Or any other explanation not involving magic?

But I guess you know the answer to that so you don't want to say.

 

[Twilight Hue]

.

Matthew 24

Verses 1- 3, Jesus talks about The destruction of the temple and its implications.

Verses 4-14, Jesus talks about The flow of history until his return.

Verses 15-35, Jesus talks about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.*


Starting at verse 29 we read

ERV
29 “Right after the trouble of those days, this will happen:

‘The sun will become dark,
and the moon will not give light.
The stars will fall from the sky,
and everything in the sky will be changed.’[c]

30 “Then there will be something in the sky that shows the Son of Man is coming. All the people of the world will cry. Everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.

32 “The fig tree teaches us a lesson: When its branches become green and soft, and new leaves begin to grow, then you know that summer is very near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time[d] is very near, already present. 34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.
​

In other Bibles verse 34 reads as:

GNT
"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."
KJV
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
NOG
“I can guarantee this truth: This generation will not disappear until all these things take place."
NIRV
"What I’m about to tell you is true. The people living now will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
MSG
. . .Don’t take this lightly. I’m not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place. Sky and earth will wear out; my words won’t wear out."
GNT
"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

​

So what happened? Nothing happened, that's what happened.

The sun never became dark.
The moon still gives light.
The stars are still in the sky,
Everything in the sky has not changed.
And everyone did not see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.​

​

Question: How could Jesus (god) have been so terribly wrong?



*source

.

It also would be rather difficult for everybody to see the son of man coming out in the sky when the world is a sphere.

 

[MJFlores]

The words ending with a question mark were questions for you to answer. I repeat what I said last time ─ if you can't answer a question, just say so. Don't prance around evading and delaying please.
How will you demonstrate to me that your statement is an accurate statement about reality?
I'm familiar with the arguments. It's clear that neither Paul nor the gospel writers had the faintest idea a biography for an historical Jesus. Mark made his up by devising a plot that linked purported messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, Matthew and Luke copied his outline but invented entirely different Jesuses, and so on. I accept there may have been an historical and fully human Jesus, but if there was, we know nothing about him, not even his message. (Though if there was, the 'physician heal thyself' scene, the 'a prophet is not without honor except' scene and his unrelenting contempt for his mother (one scene only excepted) may be echoes of him.) Indeed, if Paul is to be believed, his name wasn't even Jesus till after his death. There is no clincher either for or against such an historical Jesus.
Again I ask you, which is more probable?

A miracle?
Or any other explanation not involving magic?

But I guess you know the answer to that so you don't want to say.

Don't be upset blu, when you die - you are considered asleep.

Even if you have a sea burial to be eaten by some shark and turned into shark poop - you are still considered asleep.

 

[sooda]

Liberal Arts colleges. Not a liberal college. There is a difference. Liberal Arts is science, math, and academia. Great place to be if you're going into one of those fields, terrible place to go to learn about the Bible. Lemme break it down for ya.

If you reverse the situation it would be like going to a small country Baptist church and trying to learn Quantum Physics from the Preacher, if he's smart he might be able to give you a basic idea but you're just in the wrong place if you want a degree for that.

And your wrong it has never been mainstream Christianity at any point, at least not protestant anyways. I can't speak for the Catholics though they are more like Pagans than Christian's as far as I'm concerned.

Yes. Protestants weren't futurists until Hal Lindsey published Late Great Planet Earth. Prior to that it was relegated to the lunatic fringe. Traveling tent revivals during the 1930s also preached futurism. The teaching resonated with the poor and uneducated during the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

 

[blü 2]

Don't be upset blu, when you die - you are considered asleep.

That's a very silly word to use for someone who's dead.

And you forgot to tell me. What's your demonstration that Jesus is alive and sitting at the right of God? Why should anyone think that's a true statement about reality?

And which is more probable ─

An explanation involving a miracle (magic)?

Or any other explanation not involving a miracle (magic)?

 

[MJFlores]

That's a very silly word to use for someone who's dead.

And you forgot to tell me. What's your demonstration that Jesus is alive and sitting at the right of God? Why should anyone think that's a true statement about reality?

And which is more probable ─

An explanation involving a miracle (magic)?

Or any other explanation not involving a miracle (magic)?

We all just have to wait for it.
as they say....

 

[MJFlores]

That's a very silly word to use for someone who's dead.

And you forgot to tell me. What's your demonstration that Jesus is alive and sitting at the right of God? Why should anyone think that's a true statement about reality?

And which is more probable ─

An explanation involving a miracle (magic)?

Or any other explanation not involving a miracle (magic)?

Ezekiel 37:1-14 New International Version (NIV)
The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

----
Is it magic? I think it is more than that.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I'm not sure we have really. If you take a less literalist approach to what Jesus said and apply it individually, none of us know the "day or hour" that "the sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light" in our own lives...(whatever we believe about what may or may not happen thereafter), I think that puts the things Jesus said about how we should treat others with compassion and dignity (thinking parable of the sheep and goats, golden rule, etc. etc. here) in the context of doing the best we can to follow his teaching and example (whether or not the account is literally true) before the sun darkens on our own life. Nobody can escape that eventuality (whatever we believe about....etc) and nobody can do anything about anything after that (Ecclesiastes 9:5) - at least not until we are ushered into the "afterlife" if there is one. Personally, I don't believe there is - but surely its much better to close our eyes for the last time having done the best we could for our fellow man, than to regret a self-serving lifestyle when its too late to do anything about it. To me the latter would be "hell".

Anyway, to put it in the context of the OP - I don't think Jesus was wrong. First, Jesus might not even have said it anyway because it is remarkably like something that was already said by whoever write the prophecy of Joel (Joel 3:15) - and I don't know, maybe others too. The gospel writers do seem to have had a penchant for putting the words of the prophets and psalmists in Jesus' mouth - or maybe Jesus really was an avid prophet-quoter - but it certainly wasn't Jesus' original ideas that were being expressed. Secondly, whoever did write those words of (or as if uttered by) Jesus might very well not have been thinking of a literal fulfillment in any case - I honestly think it is unlikely that they were because I reckon even then people were smart enough to know that suns don't just go out. And third, even if I am wrong on both counts - is there any reason why one should not take a piece of literature - like Matthew 24 - and draw from it whatever life lessons they can see in it?

I have a healthy skepticism regarding cynics.

You are dealing with translations and I do note that ERV was used
I never heard of that before to be honest

NET Bible
I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
most translations say 'this generation' and that in itself can mean a variety of things

There are half a dozen views on what 'this generation' means

But I think the superficial glance is more likely because of a cynical view. I think being a skeptic and having questions is fine, but being cynical makes it tough to be objective.