So What's God up to?

[Epic Beard Man]

It

If you saw gods and kings the Exodus movie my idea of submission and lack of freewill is presented as it was in this movie to give you an idea.

It does which is why shouldn't watch but if you did you'd get the gist of the movie.

To summarize, Moses disagrees with God via through a messenger angel. But God's patience for him (Moses) allows him to be who he is.

 

[Muslim-UK]

It


It does which is why shouldn't watch but if you did you'd get the gist of the movie.

To summarize, Moses disagrees with God via through a messenger angel. But God's patience for him (Moses) allows him to be who he is.

I see. I would ask, Is that the people behind the movie subtly telling religious people to do as they please (disobey God), or something found in Scripture?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I see. I would ask, Is that the people behind the movie subtly telling religious people to do as they please (disobey God), or something found in Scripture?

No...No..In my view God the Creator is not some teacher or some person wagging their fingers. In that movie God waits, yet for Moses and while Moses disagrees, he knew that he would make the same action. My point is Moses is a lot like me I would question "why" give scientific responses on this that are presented. Not as an affront to God but to know...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No...No..In my view God the Creator is not some teacher or some person wagging their fingers. In that movie God waits, yet for Moses and while Moses disagrees, he knew that he would make the same action. My point is Moses is a lot like me I would question "why" give scientific responses on this that are presented. Not as an affront to God but to know...

This represents a very fundamental idea that I, as a father, completely understand, accept and even foster - and what is severely lacking in many people's stated beliefs about God, which consequently makes Him look like such a taskmaster. The idea is that I, as a father, EXPECT my children to question me. I EXPECT them to look for rational explanations as to WHY I make the decisions I make, or why I decree something "off limits" or why I reprimand some action they have taken. I WANT THEM to question me! Both to make sure that they understand that it is out of love and protection for them that I state certain things, and also so that I understand MYSELF exactly WHY I am taking certain actions. The idea that "none can/should question God" immediately erases the idea that He is a "father" of any sort - or at least precludes His being a father worth any sort of respect whatsoever.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This represents a very fundamental idea that I, as a father, completely understand, accept and even foster - and what is severely lacking in many people's stated beliefs about God, which consequently makes Him look like such a taskmaster. The idea is that I, as a father, EXPECT my children to question me. I EXPECT them to look for rational explanations as to WHY I make the decisions I make, or why I decree something "off limits" or why I reprimand some action they have taken. I WANT THEM to question me! Both to make sure that they understand that it is out of love and protection for them that I state certain things, and also so that I understand MYSELF exactly WHY I am taking certain actions. The idea that "none can/should question God" immediately erases the idea that He is a "father" of any sort - or at least precludes His being a father worth any sort of respect whatsoever.

I don't perceive God as my father for one....As an agnostic-theist, I perceive God as (in my opinion) gravity...Something that draws all to itself even things that are not drawn to it. I cannot perceive God as a father, I already had one.

 

[Glaurung]

Being omniscient, god knew that after having made Adam and Eve Satan would tempt them into eating the apple. So preforming as god had wanted him to, Satan was simply a tool of god.

You are correct in a way, no one can disturb the consequent will of God but we do have the freedom to reject His antecedent will, which is precisely what happened at the fall.

But having played his role in infusing all of humanity with original sin, why does god still allow Satan to harm the world?

Lucifer's role was never to be evil, he chose that for himself. At some point in primordial history God tested the angels with a choice; serve Him and be forever confirmed in grace, or reject that grace and leave His presence. According to tradition, one third of the angelic hierarchy with Lucifer as the head, chose the latter.

God allows Lucifer (now Satan) and his followers a certain degree of influence in the world, in part to serve the purpose of our sanctification (there is no crown without trial) and in other part because they still retain their freedom, even if they will always use that freedom to attack others. Their evil is never God design, but it is always within the bounds of what He will permit.

He's continually being blamed for the ills of humankind throughout the world.

The demonic can't actually do all that much to us directly, for the most part they can only tempt us. The actual committing of human evil is always on human account. Further, much of what can go wrong in our world (disease, natural disasters, ect) is just as much an unfortunate result of the fact that we inhabit a fallen world. As stated in that beautiful hymn to Our Lady, this life is a sojourn through a valley of tears. So no, not everything is the direct result of the demonic.

To me, it's obvious that he's still pleasing god--if god didn't condone Satan's work surely he would stop him. So what's god up to?

Evil doesn't please God, what would please God is Lucifer's repentance. (Which can never happen due to the irrevocable nature of his choice). As to why God allows a degree of slack on his leash has already been covered. Our sanctification.

God will deal with him and his minions (both demonic and human) with finality at the second coming. He and all who resolutely reject God will be chained forever in that miserable pit.

 

[Grandliseur]

Being omniscient, god knew that after having made Adam and Eve Satan would tempt them into eating the apple. So preforming as god had wanted him to, Satan was simply a tool of god. But having played his role in infusing all of humanity with original sin, why does god still allow Satan to harm the world? He's continually being blamed for the ills of humankind throughout the world.
To me, it's obvious that he's still pleasing god--if god didn't condone Satan's work surely he would stop him. So what's god up to?

.

The teaching of God being omniscient is not what is found in the Bible. If God knew everything that is to happen in the future, not even Brownian motion would be able to happen unless it was part of a prearranged movie. We would not be alive. It is as dumb a concept as time travel in which a past, a present, and a future need to exist at the same time - again making the movie of all reality a necessity - a reality that could not be changed one iota.

The teaching that is found is that God knows all things that happen in the present, and that if he wants something to happen in the future, he makes it happen when time comes by power and planning. Just as a city plans for e.g. a new road in 5 years time and start preparing the funds, the materials, etc. for this job, so God also plans, and makes sure that all things are set up to make what he wants happen.

Free will to any extend is an impossibility with God being omniscient in the way you refer to it. The Bible doesn't teach it. Perhaps some churches do; that matters not.

If you still have questions based on my answer, please let me know, and I will see if I can assist you.

 

[Skwim]

You are correct in a way, no one can disturb the consequent will of God but we do have the freedom to reject His antecedent will, which is precisely what happened at the fall.

To understand what you're talking about I'd have to know what consequent will and antecedent will are and how they differ.

Lucifer's role was never to be evil, he chose that for himself. At some point in primordial history God tested the angels with a choice; serve Him and be forever confirmed in grace, or reject that grace and leave His presence. According to tradition, one third of the angelic hierarchy with Lucifer as the head, chose the latter.

God allows Lucifer (now Satan) and his followers a certain degree of influence in the world, in part to serve the purpose of our sanctification (there is no crown without trial) and in other part because they still retain their freedom, even if they will always use that freedom to attack others. Their evil is never God design, but it is always within the bounds of what He will permit.

The demonic can't actually do all that much to us directly, for the most part they can only tempt us. The actual committing of human evil is always on human account. Further, much of what can go wrong in our world (disease, natural disasters, ect) is just as much an unfortunate result of the fact that we inhabit a fallen world. As stated in that beautiful hymn to Our Lady, this life is a sojourn through a valley of tears. So no, not everything is the direct result of the demonic.

Boy, this is a whole lot of specific information. Where is it found?

Evil doesn't please God, what would please God is Lucifer's repentance. (Which can never happen due to the irrevocable nature of his choice). As to why God allows a degree of slack on his leash has already been covered. Our sanctification.

I guess you'd have to explain how this works and how you know about it before I could give it any credence.
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[Skwim]

The teaching of God being omniscient is not what is found in the Bible. If God knew everything that is to happen in the future, not even Brownian motion would be able to happen unless it was part of a prearranged movie. We would not be alive. It is as dumb a concept as time travel in which a past, a present, and a future need to exist at the same time - again making the movie of all reality a necessity - a reality that could not be changed one iota.

Although the Bible doesn't come out and directly declare god to be omniscient (not that I know of), I believe the idea was arrived at by what is said in various scriptures: As for knowing specifically about future events, I've highlighted those remarks I believe speak to this capacity.

God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence

“ Remember what happened long ago. Remember, I am God and there is no other God. There is no other like me.
“In the beginning, I told you what would happen in the end. A long time ago, I told you things that have not happened yet. When I plan something, it happens. I do whatever I want to do.
” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

​

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).


​

God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).
source

.​

 

[DavidFirth]

Being omniscient, god knew that after having made Adam and Eve Satan would tempt them into eating the apple. So preforming as god had wanted him to, Satan was simply a tool of god. But having played his role in infusing all of humanity with original sin, why does god still allow Satan to harm the world? He's continually being blamed for the ills of humankind throughout the world.
To me, it's obvious that he's still pleasing god--if god didn't condone Satan's work surely he would stop him. So what's god up to?

.

Read the book of Job. It will help you figure it out.

And every time you start a new thread I can't help thinking, "What is that God hating Skwim up to this time?"

 

[Skwim]

Read the book of Job. It will help you figure it out.

Nope. If you can't post it I'm not interested in reading it.

And every time you start a new thread I can't help thinking, "What is that God hating Skwim up to this time?"

Well, at least I got you thinking, and I should receive some kind of kudos for that. And just as an FYI, I don't hate things that may not exist. I save my hate for real stuff, like homophobic aggression, the proliferation of fire arms, and Trump's Presidency.

.

.

 

[RedDragon94]

To me, it's obvious that he's still pleasing god--if god didn't condone Satan's work surely he would stop him. So what's god up to?

In due time he will.

 

[Grandliseur]

Although the Bible doesn't come out and directly declare god to be omniscient (not that I know of), I believe the idea was arrived at by what is said in various scriptures: As for knowing specifically about future events, I've highlighted those remarks I believe speak to this capacity.

God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence

“ Remember what happened long ago. Remember, I am God and there is no other God. There is no other like me.
“In the beginning, I told you what would happen in the end. A long time ago, I told you things that have not happened yet. When I plan something, it happens. I do whatever I want to do.
” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

​

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

​

God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).
source
.​

Your scriptures were nice to read; however, not all of them pertain to the subject of omniscience, and the ones that do only claim that God knows all things, even the thoughts we are having at the moment - right now, not the future. Knowing all things that happen right now, and in the past, do not speak of God knowing all future events in any way. That is reading into scripture what is not claimed. If I know everything, I know everything that is, not what isn't. Thus, it is with God. He does not know all about what is to come, what still isn't.

Of all the scriptures you quoted, only this one seems to say something about the future and God's knowledge about it: ". . .I told you what would happen in the end. A long time ago, I told you things that have not happened yet. When I plan something, it happens. I do whatever I want to do.” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

The irony here is what the scripture actually claims, what it says. Examine this, "When I plan something, it happens. I do whatever I want to do."

This is exactly what I said. God makes things happen in the future by planning, by making come to be by his power, by his angels working to make it happen. That is not omniscience in the way people use it. That is the planning for the future, not the seeing of the future in a way of having determined all that will ever be.

There is a clear case of God forcing things to become what he wants in the future in the case of Solomon's son who became king. If you want I can find it for you. This was not omniscience, but pertained to God's plans, will for the future which were made to fit what God wanted by him applying power to change the situation.

The following article could use some improvement, the issue is complex, but if you want to, read it: Truth Seeker - Predestination Debunked

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nothing, it would seem.

 

[Skwim]

In due time he will.

In the mean time Satan has been deceiving humans into not accepting Jesus, and thereby insuring they end up in hell, which has been going on now for just about two thousand years. Obviously god's "due time" and its attendant consequences don't matter to him. Pretty much a "So what if millions of people have been duped into going to hell?" Nice attitude, god.

.

 

[Skwim]

Your scriptures were nice to read; however, not all of them pertain to the subject of omniscience, and the ones that do only claim that God knows all things, even the thoughts we are having at the moment - right now, not the future. Knowing all things that happen right now, and in the past, do not speak of God knowing all future events in any way.

Your deliberate refusal to acknowledge the obvious is no longer of any interest to me.

Have a good day.

.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Being omniscient, god knew that after having made Adam and Eve Satan would tempt them into eating the apple. So preforming as god had wanted him to, Satan was simply a tool of god. But having played his role in infusing all of humanity with original sin, why does god still allow Satan to harm the world? He's continually being blamed for the ills of humankind throughout the world.
To me, it's obvious that he's still pleasing god--if god didn't condone Satan's work surely he would stop him. So what's god up to?

.

Not only did he know they would eat the apple, God created Adam and Eve without any sense of right or wrong.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil then there was no way for them to know that disobeying God was evil. That is like setting a plate of food in front of an untrained hungry dog, then getting mad when it eats the food.

 

[Skwim]

Not only did he know they would eat the apple, God created Adam and Eve without any sense of right or wrong.
If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil then there was no way for them to know that disobeying God was evil. That is like setting a plate of food in front of an untrained hungry dog, then getting mad when it eats the food.

Indeed it is. But if one is a good Christian such things are ignored.

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[Glaurung]

To understand what you're talking about I'd have to know what consequent will and antecedent will are and how they differ.

• Antecedent will is God's will antecedent to any other fact. In other words, it is what God ideally wants.
• Consequent will is what God will ultimately permit as a consequence of the choices of free beings.

It is God's antecedent will that everyone be saved, but He will consequently allow people to be lost as a result of their freedom to reject Him. With these distinctions clear your question about the activities of Satan are no real challenge. Yes, Satan does do God's will insofar as God makes consequential use of his free decision to do evil, but it does not follow that God is in any way pleased with how Lucifer has chosen to use his will. That was never God's antecedent intent for him. God's antecedent intent for Lucifer was to be was to a mighty and holy angel eternally happy in the Beatific vision.

Boy, this is a whole lot of specific information. Where is it found?

Tradition, founded by Christ, taught to the Apostles and passed down by the teaching authority of the Magisterium. We also have the Ecumenical councils, the Doctors and theologians of the Church and to some extent the writings of the saints. In fact it's that very same tradition and teaching authority that gave us the Bible. Tradition precedes the Bible.

But of course I don't expect you to know all that much about this, especially if your background was low church Protestant. But I digress.

I guess you'd have to explain how this works and how you know about it before I could give it any credence.

It's hardly secret knowledge on my part, but the teachings of the Church. We know as far as God has revealed to us though the channels I earlier explained: Sacred tradition, scripture, and the Magisterium. We don't know the specifics of the angelic fall, God has never revealed that (why exactly they choice as they choice) but we do know it happened and how God makes use of their activities as it relates to us.

Virtue is meaningless without trial and the mendacious suggestions of the demonic are but an opportunity to practice virtue. Not even Jesus was exempt if you recall Saint Matthew's account. Sanctification is to grow in grace which results in becoming more and more like God, and grace follows by the degree of our virtue and surrender to God. Thus every person in Heaven will be rewarded to the degree of their virtue and those in Hell punished to the degree of their vice.

The angelic had their trial, and man in this life goes through his. We are here to answer the same question that was put to the angelic: Do you want to serve God, or do you want to serve yourselves? The question is a vital one to ask if our existence is to have any meaning. God wants his creatures to accept Him by free choice, not simply as a result of being created with the ability to do nothing but.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Indeed it is. But if one is a good Christian such things are ignored.

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Maybe being a good Christian means being a good dog for an irrational and cruel master.