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So why did God allow Christians to be lead astray for so long?

wgw

Member
St Matthew, have you looked at the Orthodox Church? I think you will find it has always believed what Ss. Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius believed, and it has never had anything like the Protestant Reformation. It had an anti-reformation when Patriarch Nikon of Russia unilaterally changed some very minor aspects of the liturgy and many went to their deaths rather than accept the changes, which amounted to crossing yourself right to left rather than left to right, and the shortening of some services, and changes to make the Russian liturgy more closely resemble the Greek practice. So if we view Nikon as. Reformer, he triggered a proliferation of sects that were in opposition to the changes he made. In like manner the Old Calendarist Orthodox separated from the rest in the 1920s after a small minority of Orthodox adopted the revised Julian Calendar. The Old Calendarists believe it is wrong to even be in communion with the new Calendarists.

Such is the zeal the Orthodox have for admitting no change and allowing no innovation, that one can be certain it represents the ancient practice of Christianity. The only changes that ever occur tend to be cosmetic in nature, for example, more beautiful vestments and church buildings, better music, and so on, and even these occur at a glacial pace. The actual texts of the Divine Liturgy haven't really changed in about 1400 years. The service of Matins is largely as it was in the year 1500, except in the Greek church, where it was slightly reordered in the 19th century. The liturgical texts of the Assyrian Church of the East are 6th century, but one of their services dates from the third,as does a service of the Ethiopian. The Coptic liturgy dates from the fifth century and was last revised textually in the fourteenth century. The Syriac Orthodox Church uses liturgies dating to the fourth century; the current organization of services was by Mar Bar Salibi, who lived in the 13th century and wrote the definitive classic of Syrian liturgical theology.

Because of this great antiquity, I believe the Orthodox Church never fell into a great apoatasy. Whereas the Catholics did admit innovations like Scholastic theology, purgatory, the institution of Friars, Papal infallibility and the radical reform of the liturgy, we never did. So I believe the Orthodox Church represents the continued practice of ancient Christianity, essentially unmodified from apostolic times. The few changes hat did occur can each be eu aerated and accounted for, and most I have already touched on. There were schisms, but always over preserving the ancient doctrine, the first such schism being the schism at Ephesus, which was a debate between Nestorius and Cyril over who had the most ancient teaching. Those who were reformers like Marcion, who in the second century made a large donation to the Church of Rome, then tried to sell it a new doctrine that the Old Testament God was different from the Farher of Jesus; the Orthodox Church will patiently listen to such men, and try to convince them of it views, if it can't, it excommunicates them. Marcion also received a full refund on his donation, which he used to set up his own church, which lasted into the fifth century at least (possibly into the 19th; the Paulicans of Armenia may well have been Marcionists as like Marcion they only read the Gospel of Luke and certain Pauline epistles; they are more commonly identified as Gnostics but I suspect their being Marcionists more likely).

So because of the Orthodox Church being so ancient, so directly continuous with the likes of Ignatius, Athanaius who defined the 27 book canon, and so on, I believe it faithfully witnesses the doctrine of the Apostles. So did many great Anglican theologians, hence the particularly close relationship between the two in the 19th and early 20th century. Actually amusingly most priests I've met who are converts are former Anglicans, although one is a former Baptist!
 

Blackmarch

W'rkncacntr
That doesn't sound like a very trustworthy God. He did a very poor job of guiding his flock.

God wills that his bride be driven into the forest and lost to be replaced by the whore of Babylon?!?

Doesn't just sound silly....sounds disgusting!
He allows man to do many things. why does what man choose to do make God untrustworthy? The ones who had earned his trust were killed.

Second, how is it when God shows what's going to happen because of people's fallibility make him untrustworthy?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
He allows man to do many things. why does what man choose to do make God untrustworthy? The ones who had earned his trust were killed.

Second, how is it when God shows what's going to happen because of people's fallibility make him untrustworthy?
Because he established a Church and virtually every Church on the face of the earth would have been Satanic according to many Protestant denominations.

Many people who belonged to this Church were people who sincerely sought the will of God and spent their lifetime teaching error and heresy, if indeed the Catholic Church is evil.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Because he established a Church and virtually every Church on the face of the earth would have been Satanic according to many Protestant denominations.

Many people who belonged to this Church were people who sincerely sought the will of God and spent their lifetime teaching error and heresy, if indeed the Catholic Church is evil.

Re 18:4 has God pleading with people to "Get out of her, my people." - "her" being the world empire of false religion. But since Re 1:10 has the entire book's fulfillment to be in the Lord's Day it would not have been a plea that had gone into effect till that day arrived. For all those who died prior the actual destruction of Babylon the Great, we have to take into consideration Hebrews 6:10.

For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones. - Hebrews 6:10

Now we are living in the "last days" God is indeed presently pleading with people to separate themselves before it is too late.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Re 18:4 has God pleading with people to "Get out of her, my people." - "her" being the world empire of false religion. But since Re 1:10 has the entire book's fulfillment to be in the Lord's Day it would not have been a plea that had gone into effect till that day arrived. For all those who died prior the actual destruction of Babylon the Great, we have to take into consideration Hebrews 6:10.

For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones. - Hebrews 6:10

Now we are living in the "last days" God is indeed presently pleading with people to separate themselves before it is too late.
That is clearly not the Catholic Church.

The Scripture makes it very clear how to test the spirits and recognize the spirit of the antichrist. The Catholic Church doesn't meet the qualifications.
 

wgw

Member
Because he established a Church and virtually every Church on the face of the earth would have been Satanic according to many Protestant denominations.

Many people who belonged to this Church were people who sincerely sought the will of God and spent their lifetime teaching error and heresy, if indeed the Catholic Church is evil.

Or for that matter if the Orthodox Church is evil. Don't forget, were the second biggest denominations.

The high church Anglicans always recognized this problem and denied a great apostasy. The high church Anglican view, which is the view of Pusey, Dearmer, Dix, the Caroline Divines and CS Lewis, but not Thomas Cranmer or the other authors of the 39 Articles, is that the Catholic Church briefly became corrupted in the centuries immediately preceding the schism. Many felt during that time much of the Catholic Church was still functional; many others feel that the Eastern churches always kept the faith alive when the Catholic Church faltered. Many felt that the Catholics had reformed themselves and pushed for reunion, these so called Anglo-Papalists included Dom Gregory Dix. Most alive now have joined the Roman church since the Personal Ordinariates were set up. Others pursued Union with the Orthodox, many of these still exist, in the Continuing Anglican movement, whereas others joined directly.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Babylon the Great is not just one religion anymore than the beast she rides is merely one political paramour. As to whether the church is daughter of the symbolic prostitute, that is up for debate. As you said, it would need to show itself to be anti-christian. One could also identify whether a particular religion would be a part of it if they had similar teachings and practices to the religion of ancient Babylon.
 

wgw

Member
It's a trifle rich seeing the Catholics accused of spreading false teaching by a member of a church that actually rewrote its version of the Bible to promote its doctrines. Compare John 1:1 in your distorted New World Translation with the original Greek. Fr. John Whiteford wrote a devastating critique of your Bible:

"One of the worst examples of a heretical translation of the Scriptures is the New World Translation, which is published by the Jehovah’s witnesses. It would take a book much longer than the text of the Bible itself to lay out all the dishonest twisting of Scripture that takes place in this translation. It is the work of a group of anonymous “scholars” who ostensibly wished to remain anonymous out of humility, but those who have researched the question have determined that this was more likely a means of cloaking the complete lack of scholarly credentials and linguistic abilities of those who crafted this text.3 To touch upon one of the low points of this translation, it translates the Greek word “kyrios” (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” throughout the New Testament, except where the text clearly refers to Jesus Christ, because they deny both the doctrine of the Trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This is a completely arbitrary move designed to promote their heretical theological agenda, and there is absolutely no textual basis for translating the text in this manner to be found in any Greek manuscript of the New Testament. The outright dishonesty of their translation particularly demonstrated by the fact that in Hebrews 1:10, they do not translate “kyrios” as “Jehovah” (or the more proper “Yahweh”) because the quote is applied to Christ… despite the fact that this is a quote from Psalm 102 (101 in the LXX), and the LORD in that Psalm is Yahweh in Hebrew."

Fr. John is a former Anglican who is now a priest in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, one of the more traditionalist Orthodox churches (all Orthodox churches are traditionalist, but ROCOR takes it to the max; they also have on the whole the most beautiful music of any church operating in the United States, to call their choirs exceptional would be an understatement). His parish website which is a much read is saintjonah.org
 

Johnlove

Active Member
So I guess if you are Catholic...this question might not apply to you. It applies more to Protestants.

Anyway though....when I read the writtings of the early Church Fathers Clement of Rome (Pope), Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, it is clear they were not Protestant when you look at their views of Church tradition, Church hierarchy, how to worship, their belief about the Eucharist being the Body and blood of Christ, and the centrality of the Eucharist in worship services, and they were not solascriptura.

Not just that though, but, all of the influential Christian writers that were leading and sheperding the people and that Christians were relying on to preach the faith and guide them from heresy were mislead for so many centuries, if indeed you think the Catholic faith is mislead.

I am no longer Catholic and barely even Christian after about a nine month period of being agnostic. But, when I try to place my trust in God, I have to wonder how trustworthy he is and how to reconcile the fact that if Catholicism is false, God allowed those who seek him and the entire body of Christ to be mislead for more than 1500 years.

So, how am I or you so important that we think he is going to guide us and bring us to the truth but not all those countless other generations of Christians before us? Not to mention, still by far the largest body of Christians is still Catholic.

It's just hard for me to trust God when I look at the history of Christianity. Those who are often leading people astray are the very ones who have dedicated their life to seeking God and pray incessantly and place God first in their lives.

It's a bit discouraging for someone like myself who is just barely holding onto faith and for a while had no faith at all.

Thanks for any help you may be.
When the Church allowed its members to fight in Constantine the Great’s army it stopped teaching the gospel that the apostles taught.

Because the Church stopped teaching the whole Word of God, it is was cursed.

The Church no longer had the Holy Spirit to lead it. The Church had to rely on tradition to give it some direction.

Until the Church once again teaches what the apostles/Jesus taught it will continue to be cursed.

I personally believe the time is coming soon when the Church will see the error of its ways, and go back to what the Early Church was.

I believe that because Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail.

I also believe that because Jesus has told me it is true.

Satan has ruled the Christian Church for a long time, but that will soon come to an end.

(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
When the Church allowed its members to fight in Constantine the Great’s army it stopped teaching the gospel that the apostles taught.

Because the Church stopped teaching the whole Word of God, it is was cursed.

The Church no longer had the Holy Spirit to lead it. The Church had to rely on tradition to give it some direction.

Until the Church once again teaches what the apostles/Jesus taught it will continue to be cursed.

I personally believe the time is coming soon when the Church will see the error of its ways, and go back to what the Early Church was.

I believe that because Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail.

I also believe that because Jesus has told me it is true.

Satan has ruled the Christian Church for a long time, but that will soon come to an end.

(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

Actually the Church at every Mass mainly recites Scripture and teaches the Gospel at every mass throughout the world every day of the week. The Liturgy and the readings and the prayers and the words of Consecration are mainly from Scripture.

In the beginning of the mass, the Bible is held high in the air and processed down the isle. I think you are confusing Catholicism with something else.

For you to say the Church doesn't teach the Gospel is your opinion not fact. I can just as well argue that your belief that every theological truth must be found in the Bible is not the true Gospel because the Gospel doesn't teach that. In fact the Gospel teaches that not everything Christ taught is in the Scriptures.
 

Johnlove

Active Member
Actually the Church at every Mass mainly recites Scripture and teaches the Gospel at every mass throughout the world every day of the week. The Liturgy and the readings and the prayers and the words of Consecration are mainly from Scripture.

In the beginning of the mass, the Bible is held high in the air and processed down the isle. I think you are confusing Catholicism with something else.

For you to say the Church doesn't teach the Gospel is your opinion not fact. I can just as well argue that your belief that every theological truth must be found in the Bible is not the true Gospel because the Gospel doesn't teach that. In fact the Gospel teaches that not everything Christ taught is in the Scriptures.
There was a time forty years ago when I would have agreed with you.

I was a Roman Catholic until in my forties. A Catholic that went to Mass and Communion every day. Also taught in adult information classes.

Jesus called me into his ministry, and told me he would teach me about him.

It was not long before it was apparent that the Church was not teaching what Jesus taught.

I was at a loss as to what to do. Asking Jesus how it was possible for me to stay committed to the Church when the Church was not teaching the truth.

Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight, but I was no longer to be under the Churches headship.

Now forty years later I am just trying to share some of what Jesus has taught me.

The following scriptures are just some of what the Church no longer teaches.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------“
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
There was a time forty years ago when I would have agreed with you.

I was a Roman Catholic until in my forties. A Catholic that went to Mass and Communion every day. Also taught in adult information classes.

Jesus called me into his ministry, and told me he would teach me about him.

It was not long before it was apparent that the Church was not teaching what Jesus taught.

I was at a loss as to what to do. Asking Jesus how it was possible for me to stay committed to the Church when the Church was not teaching the truth.

Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight, but I was no longer to be under the Churches headship.

Now forty years later I am just trying to share some of what Jesus has taught me.

The following scriptures are just some of what the Church no longer teaches.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------“

Do you believe the Bible is the sole rule for Christian Faith? If you believe that then you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ because he taught no such thing.

Call no man your father? You clearly have taken it out of context. Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. If you take that literal it is similar to taking it literal when Christ said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out.

in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker.

If you believe Jesus was speaking literally then you are to call no man your teacher. "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher"

Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child

"But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.

Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

The argument that Jesus was speaking literally in Matthew 23 holds no water and is easily refutable.
 

Johnlove

Active Member
Do you believe the Bible is the sole rule for Christian Faith? If you believe that then you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ because he taught no such thing.

Call no man your father? You clearly have taken it out of context. Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. If you take that literal it is similar to taking it literal when Christ said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out.

in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker.

If you believe Jesus was speaking literally then you are to call no man your teacher. "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher"

Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child

"But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.

Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

The argument that Jesus was speaking literally in Matthew 23 holds no water and is easily refutable.
Do you believe the Bible is the sole rule for Christian Faith? If you believe that then you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ because he taught no such thing.

Call no man your father? You clearly have taken it out of context. Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. If you take that literal it is similar to taking it literal when Christ said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out.

in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker.

If you believe Jesus was speaking literally then you are to call no man your teacher. "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher"

Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child

"But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.

Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

The argument that Jesus was speaking literally in Matthew 23 holds no water and is easily refutable.
By the way if tradition contradicts the written Word of God, then it is not of God.

Jesus personally told me he is God, and that the Christian Bible is the written Word of God. No one has the right to change the written Word of God, not even the Church.

Read what Jesus said in the following scripture.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Jesus said call no on here on earth your father.

A Catholic priest once told me I was reading scripture wrong because I refused to address him as father. I told him that was possible, and I would ask Jesus. Jesus told me it was dangerous to be called father, and to call someone father.

You asked for proof that the Church is not teaching the Word of God, and I gave you much scripture that says it is not teaching God’s Word, and ignored the scripture to defend the churches right to disobey God to call priest father.

There is much more wrong with the church then just calling some priest father.

By the way no one ever addressed Paul as father. Paul did not disobey God by calling another man father, or having others calling him father.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Jesus also said call no man your teacher in the same verse. Do you believe he wants us to call no man teacher. The Bible contradicts your interpretation of that verse many times.

"By the way if tradition contradicts the written Word of God, then it is not of God."

I can prove you wrong. In Acts Chapter 15, the Church authorities made a decision that contradicted every Scripture that was available at that time.
 

Wharton

Active Member
In the beginning of the mass, the Bible is held high in the air and processed down the isle. I think you are confusing Catholicism with something else.
A little Catholic trivia for you. The Word of God is carried in at the beginning of Mass but you'll notice it is not carried out. That's your job after hearing the Word of God at Mass.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Jesus said call no on here on earth your father.

A Catholic priest once told me I was reading scripture wrong because I refused to address him as father. I told him that was possible, and I would ask Jesus. Jesus told me it was dangerous to be called father, and to call someone father.

You asked for proof that the Church is not teaching the Word of God, and I gave you much scripture that says it is not teaching God’s Word, and ignored the scripture to defend the churches right to disobey God to call priest father.

There is much more wrong with the church then just calling some priest father.

By the way no one ever addressed Paul as father. Paul did not disobey God by calling another man father, or having others calling him father.
Oh boy. Another one that needs help. There were no Catholic, Orthodox or Coptic priests in the crowd that Jesus was preaching to, were there? So it means something else. Do you have any idea what Jesus was referring to? Or will you cling to the erroneous belief that it refers to Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic priests/
 

Johnlove

Active Member
Oh boy. Another one that needs help. There were no Catholic, Orthodox or Coptic priests in the crowd that Jesus was preaching to, were there? So it means something else. Do you have any idea what Jesus was referring to? Or will you cling to the erroneous belief that it refers to Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic priests/
Very simple Jesus was telling us not to raise up someone above others. Jesus told us that we were all brothers, and equal.

When Jesus told me that it was dangerous to call someone father, and to be called father, he was telling me that raising up someone could let them believe they were special and deserved some glory.

By calling one father one is likely to come to believe they have the truth, and listen to them instead of God.

Jesus once told me all glory belongs to him.

By the way does the Catholic Church teach what the apostle John taught? If not then the church is cursed/condemned.

The following scripture is just some of what the church does no longer teach.

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

Tell me now does the church teach the truth?
 

wgw

Member
There was a time forty years ago when I would have agreed with you.

[Jesus called me into his ministry, and told me he would teach me about him.

It was not long before it was apparent that the Church was not teaching what Jesus taught.

How did Jesus appear to you? In a dream, in a vision? Or did you feel a general calling?

How do you know it was Jesus, and not a demonic imposter?

I was at a loss as to what to do. Asking Jesus how it was possible for me to stay committed to the Church when the Church was not teaching the truth.

Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight, but I was no longer to be under the Churches headship.

Now forty years later I am just trying to share some of what Jesus has taught me.

First of all, let me say I am not Catholic. The Orthodox Church disagrees with the Catholic church on a number of points. We reject Papal Infalliblity, the Filioque Clause, the idea of a universal bishop, purgatory, indulgences, the immaculate conception, absolute divine simplicity, created grace, and much of the teaching of the Schoolmen such as Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas, who clearly departed from the ancient Apostolic faith on a number of points.

One of the key doctrines of the Orthodox Church is a belief in Prelest, which is a Russian word meaning Spiritual Delusion. We believe, based on the warnings contained in the New Testament, that Satan and his legion of fallen angels routinely appear to mankind in the form of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the angels, and other saints, in order to lead people astray. As an example of this, consider the apparitions of a being who claimed to be the Archangel Gabriel, to Muhammed, who dictated to him the Quran. Anyone who studies the life of Muhammed cannot help but recognize that the prophet of Islam sincerely believed in his status as the Messenger of God, and the authenticity of the revelations he experienced. The Orthodox consider this prelest.

Another example would be the Catholic mystics who have received the Stigmata, of which St. Francis of Assisi was the first. St. Francis was a very good, caring, loving man, but the Orthodox believe that he was led astray by demons, who deluded him, torturing him with the stigmata and causing him to do penances in an over the top, Wagnerian manner. There was in St. Francis no proper discernment or exercise of restraint; Francis accepted his spiritual experiences uncritically. The result was clearly harmful to him. The fact that on his death bed he stated his belief that he had confessed all sins he had committed itself suggests a certain pride, which would be sinful. I pray for St. Francis, that God will have mercy on him. The Roman church should never have allowed him to found his mystical order on his own, but should have insisted that he have proper supervision by an experienced monk. When it comes to mysticism, being a freelancer is extremely dangerous, and almost all Christian mystics who set out on their own come to tragic endings. Indeed, the Orthodox are certain the Marian apparitions at Lourdes, and especially Fatima, were demonic, and the Roman church is in prelest for following them.

In Galatians, Paul teaches us that if anyone comes to you preaching a different Gospel, even if they are an angel from Heaven, they should be excommunicated. The Marian apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima and elsewhere did exactly that, and the dogma suggested at Lourdes was officially adopted at the First Vatican Council! (Papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception). The Orthodox regard Papal Infallibility as being another case of severe prelest; before our schism with the Roman Church, we honored many Roman Patriarchs as Saints, and one of our favorites was Gregory the Great (it should be noted that only in the seventh century did the Patriarch of Rome start calling himself Papem, or Pope; previously only the Pope of Alexandria used that title; it is thus amusing to consider that during those crucial years in the Fourth Century when the conflict between the Trinitarians and Arians was at its peak, the only legitimate Pope in Christendom was Pope Athanasius of Alexandria, and the Bishop of Rome who supported him was referred to either as a Bishop or Patriarch). Gregory the Great once declared that any bishop who claims universal jurisdiction is a precursor to the anti-Christ. He was writing to John the Faster, the Patriarch of Constantinople, who began calling himself Ecumenical Patriarch, meaning “Patriarch of the Byzantine Empire.” Gregory, whose knowledge of Greek was imperfect, mistranslated Ecumenical as Universal, but the validity of Gregory’s point stands (and indeed, the other autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchs often have to put the Ecumenical Patriarch in his place, as the various holders of that office often try unsuccessfully to make themselves the Popes of the Orthodox, without success, because each autocephalous Orthodox Church is fully independent, and the Ecumenical Patriarch has only a primacy of honor, and certain very limited powers to resolve disputes that occur between different sees.

The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia hilariously attempts to work around this, by claiming that the infallible Pope did not claim Universal Jurisdiction. This is in my opinion utterly untenable, for the Pope has the power to both ordain and depose any Bishop of any rank (Cardinal, Archbishop, Metropolitan, Patriarch, Diocesan Bishop, Suffragan Bishop) in the church at his will (in the past, and I believe even now, all Bishops summoned to Rome must carry with them letters dismissory from the Pope allowing them to resume the duties of their Episcopate; a bishop who returns to his diocese without these letters is presumed to have been deposed, and the diocese will not allow him to exercise his office, but will instead await a replacement bishop). Not only can the Pope ordain and depose bishops at will, and appoint them to offices at will (consider the recent demotion of Cardinal Burke from the Archbishop of St. Louis, to the head of the Apostolic Signatura, and now to the insultingly insignificant position of Chaplain of the Knights of Malta, a Catholic charity, a position that is ordinarily granted to elderly bishops or cardinals who are effectively retiring, as an honorific), but the Pope can also, at his sole discretion, create and suppress dioceses, and redraw the boundaries of existing dioceses, restructure the Vatican bureaucracy, appoint and dismiss diplomats of the Holy See, change the liturgy, create new liturgical rites and suppress old rites, and otherwise do whatever he wants; while Catholic canon lawyers have argued that if a Pope openly embraces heresy he would in theory be deposed, in practice there is no legal means to do this; the College of Cardinals, appointed by the Popes, can appoint a Pope but not remove him. Thus the Pope certainly has universal jurisdiction, and is in severe prelest, and by the standard of one of the greatest Popes, Gregory the Great, is a forerunner of the AntiChrist. This makes me very sad, because I do believe that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI were truly decent men, loving Christians and very good bishops, who drew the Roman church closer to the Orthodox Church.

In the Orthodox churches on the contrary, the primate can invariably be deposed by the Holy Synod, which consists of all of the bishops of his church, and which also elects him; even the largest Orthodox churches with hundreds of bishops find this a workable system. The most recent primates to be deposed were Metrpolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America, who was not in fact deposed but forced to retire, although he is still a Metropolitan and can serve the divine liturgy and do other episcopal things, and Patriarch Irenios of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, who was treated rather more harshly; he was deposed from the episcopate altogether and reduced to the status of a mere monk.

My point though is that it is very easy to fall into prelest, and assume you have holiness, a calling, spiritual powers, special knowledge, communication with angels, Jesus, God, or other deities, or the deceased, or the gift of prophecy, when in fact you are merely being deceived by Satan. In fact the vast majority of people who claim to have such gifts are being deceived.

Fortunately, in the Orthodox Church, for us, it is very easy to tell if an apparition is truly an angel or saint (or even Jesus); the Orthodox Church believes, on sound intellectual grounds, that it has preserved the Apostolic Faith in its fullness. First, we make the sign of the cross and say the Lord’s Prayer or the Jesus Prayer. Demons hate that, and will flee in most cases. If the apparition persists, we test it on the basis of dogma. If what it tells us agrees with the Gospel we have received from Paul and the Apostles, that is to say, the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church, then it is real; if it tells us anything else it is a demon, and we pray for it to be removed.

The Syriac Orthodox Church sings as a hymn the relevant verse from Galatians at every Divine Liturgy, before the reading of the Epistle: “If anyone comes to you preaching a different Gospel then that we have taught, even if it is an angel from Heaven, let them be anathema.”

Occasionally monks do fall into prelest, and there are many stories of such monks being rescued by their brethren. One monk thought Jesus appeared to him and told him to sacrifice his own son (who was also a monk; they lived together in the same monastery), so he would be like Abraham. Fortunately the son fled when he saw his father sharpening his knife, and the other monks restrained the deluded monk. In many other cases, monks were persuaded to hurl themselves off cliffs; in some cases, the brethren were able to rescue them in time, in other cases, they perished as a result of demonic delusion.

When we consider all the people who have founded religions based on private revelation since the time of Jesus Christ, on the basis of personal revelation, and indeed all the people who claimed to be Jesus Christ, such as Emmanuel Swedenborg, the warnings of Jesus himself regarding false Christs and spiritual delusion become clear. Persons who fall into prelest are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Now, I am not implying that you are such a wolf in sheep’s clothing, but you are making bold claims about your religious experience, and for me to consider accepting it, I need to know how you have come to receive messages from Jesus.

The following scriptures are just some of what the Church no longer teaches.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

The Orthodox Church still teaches this. We discourage our members from living decadent lives, and encourage simple living and generous donations to charity. We have a special class of saints called Holy Unmercenary Healers, such as Saints Cosimas and Damian, who are doctors who freely treated the poor. This was rare in the fourth century, and such saints were regarded as heroes by the church, and we venerate them. They remain rare at present, although fortunately the poor have better access to medicine. Far from good however.

For that reason I am thrilled to report that the Roman Catholic Church apparently also teaches this, as they have one of the few Holy Unmercenary Healers of our generation that I’m aware of: a Medical Doctor who became a Penitential Hermit of St. Mary, and who lives in a hermitage he built in a tiny village in The Gambia, a small, impoverished, English-speaking country in West Africa. The village in which he works is mostly Muslim, but has a Catholic minority; he treats all, free of charge, including the officials of the Mosque, who love him, and he loves them. He loves all the people of the village. To the Catholics in the village, he is their main spiritual guide, as the village lacks a church, but a several times a year a priest will come by the village and celebrate Mass for Brother Dismas and the Catholics in his hermitage; his hermitage is quite special in that when it’s not a medical clinic, it is a church. The same room where patients are treated also features an altar. Brother Dismas is not paid and receives no stipend from the Church; he finances his hermitage through donations of medical supplies by readers of his fantastic blog, brotherdismas.blogspot.com, and through the sale of Rustic Rosaries, which he carves by hand in his spare time. So clearly, the Catholic Church must still teach Matthew 6:19, for Brother Dismas has made it the basis of his life, and will likely be canonized as a saint, as a Holy Unmercenary Healer.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

In any polemic against Catholics, this comes up, but it also affects Anglicans, Orthodox, and Assyrian Christians, because we all call our Priests Father. We do not believe this passage should be taken literally.

Why? Let me ask you a question: do you refer to your biological father by his first name? Because you can’t call him Father, and you can’t call him Dad or Pappa because they mean the same thing; the semantics are identical. So if we literally accept this teaching, every human being is obliged to refer to their father by their name. They can’t even say to another person who their father is! You can’t say “This person is my male biological parent” because, once again, you’re caught by semantic equivalence. That translates to “Father.” So frankly, a literal interpretation in this case is utterly absurd; there is no way Jesus meant that statement literally.

What is more, Rabbi literally means “Doctor” or “Teacher.” If no one can call himself that, how will we know who to go to for medical care or education? And we can’t get around it by using terms such as “Healer”, “Physician”, “Educator of Children,” “Professor”, et cetera, because Rabbi was used to refer to all of the above in ancient times. So obviously, a literal interpretation is required.

Now, my King James Study Bible, which has commentary written mainly by low church premillennial Calvinists and Baptists, with a token Methodist, all of whom believe in the Rapture, in spite of the fact that the Rapture originated with John Nelson Darby in the 19th century and the Plymouth Brethren, and was a doctrine unknown to John Calvin, Martin Luther, or John Wesley, or the various Baptist founders, dares to offer this solution:

“Here, He means that we should call no man Father in a spiritual sense.”

To which I can only reply, says who? Really? What makes their interpretation of the Bible, much of which consists of novel doctrines that date from the 19th century, and much of the rest of which rests on Calvinist doctrines which date from the 16th century, any more valid than that of the apostolic churches?

The Orthodox Church still relies primarily on the scriptural interpretation of the Fathers of the First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth centuries; these were summarized in the eighth century by St. John of Damascus in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. Now, we never believe the Patristic age ended, unlike the Catholics, who posit a Scholastic Age beginning around the year 800 or so, with figures like St. Odo of Cluny, Anselm of Canterbury, St. Dominic, and Thomas Aquinas, and most traditionalist Catholics regard the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas as the definitive exposition of the Catholic Faith. The Orthodox however focus on studying works such as the Epistles of St. Ignatius from the 1st Century, the Apologies of Justin Martyr, the writings of Origen, which are useful, even if at times heretical, the beautifully written works of St. Athanasius such as On The Trinity, and the Life of St. Anthony, the writings of the Cappadocian Fathers (St. Basil the Great, who invented the modern hospital and together with St. Nicholas, is the inspiration for Santa Claus, his friend St. Gregory the Theologian, and his brother St. Gregory of Nyassa), the sermons of the fiery preacher St. John Chrysostom, the writings of the monk John Cassian in opposition to Pelagius, and so on. We start there, and continue to the later fathers.

Now many more recent fathers are important to us, but no one is allowed to introduce new doctrine. In the fifteenth century, St. Gregory of Palamas was accused of introducing a new doctrine regarding the mystical practice of the monks on Mount Athos called Hesychasm, the goal of which is to teach oneself to pray without ceasing using the Jesus Prayer; however, a Council of Bishops determined that he was merely defending ancient practices which could be traced back to the time of St. Anthony and St. Paul the Hermit, the first two monks, and which had already been documented many years earlier by St. Simeon the New Theologian. The accuser of Gregory of Palamas, Barlaam, left the Orthodox church, moved to Italy, and joined the Roman Catholic church. Now I should stress the modern Catholic church is much closer to the Orthodox church, and is a genuinely good institution that has fantastic charitable operations around the world, such as the Sisters of Charity in Calcutta, Brother Dismas in The Gambia, and innumerable other examples. Millions would die if it weren’t for the Roman Catholic Church. That they labor under some religious delusions is lamentable, but it does not devalue their Christianity, and I pray that in the 21st century full communion between Rome and the Orthodox will be restored, on the basis of the common faith we shared up until the Great Schism of 1054.

The ultimate point of the Orthodox authority in its interpretation of the New Testament is clearly demonstrated by the Philokalia, an anthology of monastic texts from the fourth through sixteenth century, collected in 1745 by two monks, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and St. Makarios of Corinth. The name Philokalia means “Love of Beauty” in Greek, and also means “Anthology;” earlier, St. Basil and Gregory the Theologian compiled a Philocalia* of the works of Origen they deemed to be spiritually profitable, omitting those which they considered doctrinally unsound; unfortunately, this work is now lost. At any rate, the central themes of the Philokalia compiled by Ss. Nicodemus and Makarios are threefold: the mystical and ascetic praxis of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox approach to Hesychasm, which is how we seek to obey Jesus Christ’s commandment to “Pray without Ceasing,” and lastly, Prelest, the dangerous religious delusion. Many monks thought they had attained Hesychasm when in fact they were under demonic delusion, and were forced to start again. What is remarkable is that all the writings compiled in the Philokalia, from the earliest to the latest, are consistent. You could read the very first texts at the beginning of the book and jump to the very end, reading texts by two different saints, and believe you had read the writings of the same individual, or at least, two individuals who were of the same faith who wrote in a similar manner. Since the Philokalia of 1745, there has been a new Russian Philokalia that continues the tradition, with stories of St. Seraphim of Sarov and other Russian mystics of the 19th and 20th century, and as one would expect, every chapter reads exactly like the Philokalia.

To give another example of the unique perspective we possess, the liturgy of the Orthodox Church uses texts that date as far back as the third century. The rubrics of the Divine Liturgy itself have not been changed since the Fall of Constantinople in 1453; but if you compare a service book from that time with one of the year 1,000, they are substantially similar; indeed, even the oldest manuscripts are the same in all key points. The only difference is over the years more petitions, prayers and hymns were added to the services, making them more beautiful. But we basically worship the same way we did in the Ninth Century, and what is more, these services are in turn mere elaborations of services that were authored in the third and fourth centuries. So there is a direct historical continuity to the early church, before the time of St. Constantine.

So when we call our Priests Father, we do so on the basis of nearly 2,000 years of unbroken tradition.

You may be interested to note we also call our Bishops Master. This strictly speaking passes a literal interpretation of the text in question; each Orthodox layman and priest has only one Bishop, or Master; each Bishop has only one Archbishop, Metropolitan, or thus Master, and each Archbishop or Metropolitan has only one primate, whether their title is Metropolitan, Archbishop, Catholicos, Pope, or Patriarch, and those primates in turn have but one Master, that being the all-holy life-giving, consubstantial and coeternal Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God. Christ alone is the High Priest forever; Bishops represent him vicariously as high priests in the celebration of the Eucharist, and Priests vicariously represent the Bishop (our beautiful vestments are designed to reflect that the Bishops and Priests are acting in the Person of Christ when they serve the liturgy or administer the other life-giving sacraments.

*Philocalia is spelt differently due to differences in age and dialect; consider the two anthologies were collected 1300 years apart.

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”


Firstly, the word possessions is a mistranslation; it would be more accurate to say “Property.” Only some Indian ascetics give up all possessions; to ensure they have nothing, they walk around naked with no clothes. As we know that Jesus did not require his disciples to preach in the nude, but rather the New Testament speaks of “girding up your loins”, and as Jesus also said “Take up your tent and follow me,” Jesus clearly was referring only to the property of his disciples that they did not need in order to conduct their ministry.


Furthermore, Jesus was talking to his twelve main Disciples; they followed this instruction, as did the 70 additional Apostles. They did give up all their possessions. However, since that time, no one in the Orthodox has dared to call himself an Apostle; Christ’s instructions to the Apostles were in this case specific. This fact is evidenced by the fact that the early church, as it grew, as described in the New Testament, nowhere required its members to give up everything they owned. However, those who pretended to donate all they had, while keeping some for themselves, met with an unpleasant demise for their hypocrisy.

At present however, monks and nuns in the Orthodox Church do give up all personal property when they join the monastery. They have possessions only in the sense that they are assigned a cell with a bed, robes, a prayer rope, et cetera, but no Property. So monks in the Orthodox church do actually literally obey this commandment. They also work hard at Hesychasm, to obey the commandment to “Pray without ceasing.”

Now, not everyone is able to live the monastic life. While the Orthodox see it as the Christian ideal, the majority of our priests are married. Married people have to live in the world, keep jobs, and obtain housing in order to provide for their families. Its in some respects a more difficult life than monasticism because it is so easy to live in the world.

Lastly, I have to ask, have you kept this commandment? At a a minimum, you were in temporary physical possession of someone's computer, perhaps at a library, when you wrote this. I would assume you own your own. So I would lovingly urge you to consider the implications of this commandment on your own life before condemning others.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------“[/QUOTE]

So are you daring to say that you are without sin, and that any baptized Christian who sins is damned? Tertullian and his sect, the Montanists, believed that, but fortunately most Christians have from the founding of the church rejected it. Consider how Jesus forgave Peter for betraying him. The New Testament teaches that if we forgive our neighbors, and repent, our sins will be forgiven. “Judge not, lest ye not be judged.”

The idea that any human other that Christ or Mary can avoid commiting sin in this lifetime and thus attain salvation is a heresy; in fact, the idea that we must save ourselves by not sinning is Pelagianism. It is only through God's grace that we can resist sin at all, and it is only through repentance and being ourselves humble and forgiving that we, through God's mercy, may have our own sins forgiven and be saved.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Very simple Jesus was telling us not to raise up someone above others. Jesus told us that we were all brothers, and equal.

When Jesus told me that it was dangerous to call someone father, and to be called father, he was telling me that raising up someone could let them believe they were special and deserved some glory.

By calling one father one is likely to come to believe they have the truth, and listen to them instead of God.

Jesus once told me all glory belongs to him.

Seems that you don't need a reply from me as you have the ultimate source, the everlasting father Jesus, at your personal disposal. Why don't you ask Jesus to give you a personal interpretation of Matthew 23. I'm sure he can give you the definition of a Jewish father.

Let us know what he says.
 

Wharton

Active Member
First of all, let me say I am not Catholic. The Orthodox Church disagrees with the Catholic church on a number of points. We reject Papal Infalliblity, the Filioque Clause, the idea of a universal bishop, purgatory, indulgences, the immaculate conception, absolute divine simplicity, created grace, and much of the teaching of the Schoolmen such as Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas, who clearly departed from the ancient Apostolic faith on a number of points.
The pope is not a universal bishop.
 
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