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So, why don't you believe in God?

Alceste

Vagabond
Actually there is some evidence for the existance of a God in things like miraculus events and prayers that have been answered. The question is can these things be explained away or are they evidence of the divine.

I will give you an example. John Newton ships captain and slave trader was caught in a terrible storm, so bad he was certain he would die and in desperation fell to his knees and cried out to God to save him. To his amazement the storm soon stopped. So impressed was he that he wrote a hymn in God's honour called Amazing Grace.

There is also a case of a man in a coma on a life support machine suffering from septicemia and kidney failure, whose parents had been asked if the life support machine could be switched off as there was virtually no chance he would ever recover. However some christians who had met him earlier came to pray for him each day, he later made a full recovery and was so impressed he became a christian and a preacher. His name is Gram Seed from Middlesborough who was a former criminal and alcoholic.

I can understand why many people are athiests though as such events are extremley rare and happen radomly and the majority of such cases can be rationally explained but there are still many thousands of such events that happen around the world and I don't think they can all be easily explained away.

If storms never stopped and people on life support never recovered without intercessory prayer that might begin to sound like evidence of the existence of god.

As it is, storms always stop and people on life support very often recover. There is very strong evidence that storms and illnesses are entirely indifferent to whether or not anybody is praying for a particular outcome.

Since people often pray and storms always stop, the odds that eventually somebody will happen to be praying for a storm to stop at the same time that a storm stops are extremely high. Same goes for life-threatening illnesses. I know you might be tempted to call this line of reasoning "explaining away" a miracle, but from my POV there is no miracle, therefore nothing to explain.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Imagine a river separating two pieces of land.
One side of the river is inhabited by people, the other side is empty.
The people's side suffers from Earthquakes and every day someone dies from being hit by a brick.
The empty side doesn't suffer from earthquakes.
So someone suggests to build a bridge which has never been attempted before,
so that people don't have to die!
So they build a bridge after much studying and cross over to live forever without the problem of daily deaths.

Silver

Death is a problem? Says who? I'd be going very hungry indeed if death was a "problem."
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
I was raised in a liberal Muslim family. (yes they do exist). :D

Many of my family members including an older sibling, cousins, uncles and aunts were atheists, but I considered myself a believer until about age 12. Then, I started talking to other Muslims and realized that we did not share the same views on God. I felt that most of them worshipped a hypocritical, cruel, unloving tribal god. By the time I was age 16, I considered myself an agnostic. This remained my position until I was in my 30s. Then, about 10 years ago, I began studying the Bible and started understanding the Quran in a different light/ a secular light with help of the Bible. I started reading about the history and geography of the period. It restored my faith in a mysterious God, but not in a fundamental way. This is where I am now.
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend lunakilo,

So, why don't you believe in God?
I mean, what is your story.

It is realised that all the following are true
1. There is god
2. There is no god
3. God is and is not

It depends on one's perception and personal efforts are to transcend all perceptions.

Now also understand that the word *god* has been developed by humans.
The word *God* is a concept developed by humans for an understanding.
Understanding that the totality of all forms and no-forms is God and that each forma nd no-form are its constituents.
A constituent can never view this *whole* or *God* by perceiving itself out of that *SET* but only BE part of it and so we are BEINGS as there is no stop in its movement it is constantly moving towards that point of oneness with the *whole*.

Love & rgds
 
My story is fairly simple, so I won't drag it out (much).

I was born into a Christian family. I usually say "Conservative Christian" because that's what my father and his family are, but religion is just practice on my mother's side of the family. Most of my mother's siblings don't even go to church anymore, and they never talk about God or their beliefs (or lack thereof, for all I know). My father's side of the family is different, therefor my immediately family is as well. As a kid I was expected to go to church, participate in Sunday School, go to Youth Group as I grew older, and never never never skip church unless I had a very legitimate reason. (And if you skipped church, you were essentially grounded, just because you were deemed 'unwell enough' to go to church, so you had to be 'unwell enough' to do other things like watch TV.) By the time I was about 13 years old and I had met Atheists and Jews and Rebellious Satanists in public school, I finally began to realize that maybe I shouldn't accept everything I was taught in church as the truth - and so I didn't.

About 3 years ago, I officially removed myself from the idea of church - mainly with my family and friends, and surprisingly enough most of them stopped attending because they couldn't convince my brother to go anymore. A year ago I told my mother that I was definitely not a Christian, but I didn't really know what I was, I just wanted to figure it out for myself. A little over 2 months ago I started dating an Atheist and I think my father finally realized that I wasn't coming back to the church. My mother seemed to have a slight panic attack, mainly because I shrugged when she asked me what I believed.

I really don't believe anything, and there's not much that I don't believe. However, I don't believe in any concept of god that I have been presented with and have a basic understanding of. So I don't believe in God, but I don't necessarily disbelieve in a god or goddess, or celestial thing.
 

LoveDistribution

New Member
I mean, what is your story.

I am not interested in the "there is no evidence of god"-argument, I am interested in how you came to view the world the way you do.
Where you born in a non-religious family or did you make a conscious choice later on?

I was a religious Catholic until the age of 17,I started to have doubts and question my beliefs, I was raised to know about Islam and Christianity, my skeptical thoughts and researches in history, science and religions leaded me to into figuring out that Gods could possibly be imaginary beings made by us and religions as old mythologies made to explain the reason of our existence and to fill our lack of knowledge.

Still I'm not finding any real answers in current religions,to me they don't make sense at all, they contradict with science, logic and freedom of thoughts. etc

Other endless reasons, can't mention all of them here.

I'll go with what Voltaire said: Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.:beach:
 

elmarna

Well-Known Member
i was born baptist. My father ws a baptist minister. my father died when i was young & my mother decided to leave the church to become Episcapalian so i was baptised there. a few years later my mother married & converted catholic.I went to CCD & was confirmed. Her parents were 1st church of god & my mothers grandmother was 7 day adventice. my great great granmother was POW WOW & lived in the mountians. So all these influences gave me perspective that had me supporting a world of seeing more than 1 way. I joined the native american church right before i graduated from high school & was a devoted follower until my near death experience where i found the Phoronic church. I married recently to a Muslum who is from Kuwait & find the mosque speaking my beliefs with a great smile!
I am not without being able to speak "outside of the box" & RESPECT ALL FORMS OF BELIEFS!!!!
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Quite simply, I read the Bible. I had read the Bible before, but it was only later that I began to think about what the words meant. For example, it's easy for a practicing Christian to gloss over the glaring misogyny, homophobia, hypocrisy, etc. However, being exposed to the internet (especially RF and youtube) brought the bad aspects of the Bible to attention. I realized that to not be associated with the negative things of the Bible, I would have to discontinue use of the "Christian" label. My first step in this process, ironically enough, was to debate in favor of Christianity and try to demonstrate that it was scientifically and logically viable - however, in attempting to do so, I slowly, perhaps subconsciously at first, began to realize that doing so was impossible. For me, truth was more powerful than faith - unfortunately, in most others that are placed in a similar position, this is not true. Once I got rid of that label, I realized I was no longer obligated to avoid questioning certain ideas, and thus what remained of my religion quickly fell apart.

Nowadays, I am essentially an agnostic maltheist - I do not know if there is a god, but I live my life as if I'm operating a one-man resistance force against the (evil) Christian god. Most arguments against anti-theism revolve around other religions being different than Christianity - this is currently irrelevant, as most of, if not all, of the religious people I encounter here in the Bible Belt are conservative Christians. Other religions will not concern me until they are a threat, at which point I will presumably hate their gods as much as I do the Christian god.
Further, while this is less of a concern to me than the moral aspect, many ideas presented in the Bible are, quite frankly, impossible. The Flood Story is one of the best examples of this. I assume most of you already know the details of why the Noah story could not have happened the way it is portrayed in the Bible, so I will not go into this. Knowing that reality and the Bible are in conflict, one is presented with a choice - do you believe in reality, or do you believe in the Bible? Many atheists here would remind listeners that reality can be felt, observed, tested, repeated, experimented upon. However, my experience as being a fundamentalist Christian in my youth reminds me that this is entirely irrelevant to Christians - when your faith is strong enough, your brain simply won't naturally be able to process ideas that you subconsciously know would endanger your faith (I forced myself to read through atheist arguments in an effort to find holes in them, which I ended up never finding), and many Christians seem to hallucinate the "presence" of God and his "Holy Spirit."
In effect, what you get is two different groups living in separate realities - one in the conventional reality, and one constantly and thoroughly convincing itself that life is run by God and not reason (there are, of course, other groups in real life, but we are only referring to the conflict between Christians and secularists). Obviously, these two groups are different, and as I realized a long time ago, two things cannot be different yet at the same time equal - for there to be differences, one option must be better than the other, otherwise they would be the same (which option is better may vary depending on the intended purpose, but there is almost always a superior option). This is why I as a non-Christian feel a moral obligation to bring others away from Christianity - my reality is more reliable than their reality is, because mine is consistent - "God" relies on faith, and since God is theoretically a personal, living being, if there were actually an omnipotent god running the universe rather than science, we would have no order, because while the laws of physics are constant and do not change (having no supernatural source), God could change his mind on something whenever he felt like it. Thus, if the universe WERE run by an omnipotent god, we would be unable to effectively predict what our environment would do to us, unable to determine what makes sense and what doesn't, and we would constantly live in fear of what God would decide to do next. It is far better to have a System in place, one that we could learn and comprehend without fear of it spontaneously changing on us. With reality, I can confidently say that the sun is hot, 2+2=4, and the seas are filled with liquid. With God, anything is possible.
(I suppose a simpler comparison could be made like this: Would you rather live in a country ran by a dictator who's laws he could change on a whim, or would you rather live in a country with a constitution and a formal process for lawmaking?)
This is why we have a moral obligation to convert Christians - they are essentially an element of disorder in the world. We pity them because they are affected by our reality regardless of their belief in it, and we fear them for the impact that their beliefs have on our society.
[/weird tangent]
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
Quite simply, I read the Bible. I had read the Bible before, but it was only later that I began to think about what the words meant. For example, it's easy for a practicing Christian to gloss over the glaring misogyny, homophobia, hypocrisy, etc. However, being exposed to the internet (especially RF and youtube) brought the bad aspects of the Bible to attention. I realized that to not be associated with the negative things of the Bible, I would have to discontinue use of the "Christian" label. My first step in this process, ironically enough, was to debate in favor of Christianity and try to demonstrate that it was scientifically and logically viable - however, in attempting to do so, I slowly, perhaps subconsciously at first, began to realize that doing so was impossible. For me, truth was more powerful than faith - unfortunately, in most others that are placed in a similar position, this is not true. Once I got rid of that label, I realized I was no longer obligated to avoid questioning certain ideas, and thus what remained of my religion quickly fell apart.

Nowadays, I am essentially an agnostic maltheist - I do not know if there is a god, but I live my life as if I'm operating a one-man resistance force against the (evil) Christian god. Most arguments against anti-theism revolve around other religions being different than Christianity - this is currently irrelevant, as most of, if not all, of the religious people I encounter here in the Bible Belt are conservative Christians. Other religions will not concern me until they are a threat, at which point I will presumably hate their gods as much as I do the Christian god.
Further, while this is less of a concern to me than the moral aspect, many ideas presented in the Bible are, quite frankly, impossible. The Flood Story is one of the best examples of this. I assume most of you already know the details of why the Noah story could not have happened the way it is portrayed in the Bible, so I will not go into this. Knowing that reality and the Bible are in conflict, one is presented with a choice - do you believe in reality, or do you believe in the Bible? Many atheists here would remind listeners that reality can be felt, observed, tested, repeated, experimented upon. However, my experience as being a fundamentalist Christian in my youth reminds me that this is entirely irrelevant to Christians - when your faith is strong enough, your brain simply won't naturally be able to process ideas that you subconsciously know would endanger your faith (I forced myself to read through atheist arguments in an effort to find holes in them, which I ended up never finding), and many Christians seem to hallucinate the "presence" of God and his "Holy Spirit."
In effect, what you get is two different groups living in separate realities - one in the conventional reality, and one constantly and thoroughly convincing itself that life is run by God and not reason (there are, of course, other groups in real life, but we are only referring to the conflict between Christians and secularists). Obviously, these two groups are different, and as I realized a long time ago, two things cannot be different yet at the same time equal - for there to be differences, one option must be better than the other, otherwise they would be the same (which option is better may vary depending on the intended purpose, but there is almost always a superior option). This is why I as a non-Christian feel a moral obligation to bring others away from Christianity - my reality is more reliable than their reality is, because mine is consistent - "God" relies on faith, and since God is theoretically a personal, living being, if there were actually an omnipotent god running the universe rather than science, we would have no order, because while the laws of physics are constant and do not change (having no supernatural source), God could change his mind on something whenever he felt like it. Thus, if the universe WERE run by an omnipotent god, we would be unable to effectively predict what our environment would do to us, unable to determine what makes sense and what doesn't, and we would constantly live in fear of what God would decide to do next. It is far better to have a System in place, one that we could learn and comprehend without fear of it spontaneously changing on us. With reality, I can confidently say that the sun is hot, 2+2=4, and the seas are filled with liquid. With God, anything is possible.
(I suppose a simpler comparison could be made like this: Would you rather live in a country ran by a dictator who's laws he could change on a whim, or would you rather live in a country with a constitution and a formal process for lawmaking?)
This is why we have a moral obligation to convert Christians - they are essentially an element of disorder in the world. We pity them because they are affected by our reality regardless of their belief in it, and we fear them for the impact that their beliefs have on our society.
[/weird tangent]
I can relate to the whole reading-the-bible story. Inspered by different threads on the RF I resently started reading the bible from one end to the other. I never read the whole thing berore, so my knowledge of its content is really based on selective reading and what I remember from the childrens version of some of the stories in it that I have heard while growing up.

I am still in the old testament. I am really amazed at how horrible people are in it. They lie and cheat and kill each other, but that seems to be ok since God is on their side :eek:
I am having trouble understanding why anyone would base a religion on it :confused:
But then again I do not come from a family where religion was a big deal so I am probably missing something...

Anyway, I can understand why you call yourself an anti-Christian, but there are other 'versions' of god than the christian one.
It seems to me that there is quite a way to go from rejecting the christian version of god to concluding that no version of the god-concept makes sense.

I am curious, you say you used to call youself a christian, where you brought up in a christian family and became christian 'by default', or was there some other reason for it?
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
I can relate to the whole reading-the-bible story. Inspered by different threads on the RF I resently started reading the bible from one end to the other. I never read the whole thing berore, so my knowledge of its content is really based on selective reading and what I remember from the childrens version of some of the stories in it that I have heard while growing up.

I am still in the old testament. I am really amazed at how horrible people are in it. They lie and cheat and kill each other, but that seems to be ok since God is on their side :eek:
I am having trouble understanding why anyone would base a religion on it :confused:
But then again I do not come from a family where religion was a big deal so I am probably missing something...

Anyway, I can understand why you call yourself an anti-Christian, but there are other 'versions' of god than the christian one.
It seems to me that there is quite a way to go from rejecting the christian version of god to concluding that no version of the god-concept makes sense.

I am curious, you say you used to call youself a christian, where you brought up in a christian family and became christian 'by default', or was there some other reason for it?

Like I said, I don't care if there's "another version" of god, those other versions aren't a threat to me yet. Christianity is, and I prefer to purge evil from the land one source at a time.

My family brought me up a Christian, although I ended up being more genuine than them up until the point I Saw the Light (TM). Due to the narrow way they and most of the people in town raised me, I may very well had ended up a brainless fundamentalist had it not been for the internet.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Would you mind elaborating on the fact that you want me to elaborate?
LOL, ok. First, some basic information so I can ask intelligent questions.

1) Were you actually born poor and black, or just using the quote?

2) If you were, I assume you were raised in a religious household. Correct?

First real question: did you lose your faith due to a lack of social justice in the world?
 
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