Soaring Gas Prices

[Mister_T]

Yeah, it does. If demand didn't set prices, it would create huge shortages.

Huge shortages in gasoline are the result of refineries not being fixed. There is a solution to the problem and little if anything is being done.

Yeah, you have no real alternatives IF YOU DRIVE A CAR. It's like saying, "If you eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, you have to eat peanut butter." BUt that doesn't mean there are no alternatives to peanut butter and jelly. So, yeah, if you drive a car, you will have to use gas (although you determine the amount of gas you use, and therefore your demand) but you don't have to drive a car in the first place.

No you dont. The farmer who lives 30 miles out of town can always walk there. That is not practical and in some cases not feasable. A car is a necessity to some folks.

Yeah, so are the bus routes. And I'm pretty sure they have sidewalks. And I'm pretty sure it takes a considerable amount of time to drive there, too.

Sorry, but bus routes in L.A. don't go all over the city. It's too big. Walking is not an option for a lot of people getting to work.

By buying gas you are buying convenience. So are you changing your argument to the idea that there are no CONVENIENT alternatives to cars? Because that's a whole nother story

I'm not changing my argument to "convienence." It's staying at necessity. Gas Is a necessity for people who work in down town and live in the suburbs. There's not a mass transit going from the L.A. suburbs to downtown. Driving is your only option.

 

[Mister_T]

You have claimed a million times that they are not being fixed. You have not provided convincing evidence of it though.

I have presented the information that's available. If it doesn't convince you, that's your problem. And you still haven't shown me how that information is wrong.

Are the same refineries having problems today that were last year

Good question.

or have the ones from last year been fixed and new ones falling apart

From the information I gathered, it seems as though little if any are being updated.

How much does it cost to fix them? Is it worth the cost?

You'd think with the billions in profit that they make, they'd put it towards fixing them. Fixing them is a lot cheaper than building new ones, but it doesn't seem like they in a hurry to fix this "problem" any time soon. Again, prove me wrong.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It is interesting to me that this thread seems to consider only the American market.
The USA now buys Hugh volumes of Crude on the word market.
It matters little what it comes out of the ground at or what the daily demand in the USA is. The Real price of oil is set by OPEC.
The world price for oil is set by calls on the world market. This is one area where the USA does not control what goes on.
If any major supplier has a problem anywhere in the world this effects the price.
These do not have to be real they can be as simple as fears of conflict. major buyers can not be caught short so they always put in calls to cover themselves. so you get a price jump.

The American government tries to smooth things out by releasing some of its reserve. but this only has a minor short term effect on the local market, it is more of a political statement.

 

[CDRaider]

I remember seeing something about that. Didn't some people die when they were trying to go to the broken pipelines with buckets to collect crude oil, or something like that?

Yeah, I can't remember what it is called but that isn't new. Its been happening since the beginning of the nigerian oil prodcuation. What happenes is that people will bush open the pipeline to collect it in buckets to sell it so they can eat and stuff and a motorbike nearby will backfire and set the pipeline on fire and kill hundres of people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, gas is very slowly, but surely going down. I just paid 3.10 for it. Still too high though.

 

[Aqualung]

Huge shortages in gasoline are the result of refineries not being fixed.

There are no shortages, though, even though you claim they aren't being fixed. There aren't mile-long lines at gas stations. On the other hand, when the government set price ceilings for gas, there WERE huge lines at pumps, because price ceilings created shortages.

No you dont. The farmer who lives 30 miles out of town can always walk there.

Or not go, or carpool, or buy a fuel efficient car. There ARE alternatives, but as I mentioned, they may not necessarily be better than a truck or whatever. If they AREN'T better than a truck, though, you value the convenience over money, because you are willing to trade money for convenience. If you value convenience over money, why should you get to keep both, when the person selling convenience more highly values money? All economies are based on trade, but if people are no longer allowed to trade what they value less for something they value more, everything would collapse.

Sorry, but bus routes in L.A. don't go all over the city. It's too big. Walking is not an option for a lot of people getting to work.

It definitely looks like the furthest you would ever have to walk is about two miles. Guess what? I walked two miles to work every day last year. Do you know why? Because I valued money more than the convenience of being able to drive.

I'm not changing my argument to "convienence." It's staying at necessity. Gas Is a necessity for people who work in down town and live in the suburbs. There's not a mass transit going from the L.A. suburbs to downtown. Driving is your only option.

Or, working a job in the suburb is another option. But, perhaps you value money over the convenience of working in the city in which you live. In that case, you will have to trade your convenience for money. You get what you most highly value by trading what you value less with somebody who values THAT good more.

 

[Aqualung]

Well, gas is very slowly, but surely going down. I just paid 3.10 for it. Still too high though.

Too high for what? It was obviously low enough that you valued it more than the money you payed for it.

 

[Mister_T]

There are no shortages, though, even though you claim they aren't being fixed. There aren't mile-long lines at gas stations. On the other hand, when the government set price ceilings for gas, there WERE huge lines at pumps, because price ceilings created shortages.

Um, there are shortages of refined gasoline, which is why the price is high. :sarcastic

Or not go, or carpool, or buy a fuel efficient car. There ARE alternatives,

With the exception of the fuel effiecient car, neither of those are practical alternatives for a person who lives 30 miles out of town. It is a necessicity.

It definitely looks like the furthest you would ever have to walk is about two miles. Guess what? I walked two miles to work every day last year. Do you know why? Because I valued money more than the convenience of being able to drive.

The furthest you'd have to walk is a two miles? :bonk:

Check that map again and get your milage right. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Or, working a job in the suburb is another option. But, perhaps you value money over the convenience of working in the city in which you live. In that case, you will have to trade your convenience for money. You get what you most highly value by trading what you value less with somebody who values THAT good more.

Sure it's an option if you like retail and fast food jobs which don't pay you enough money to cover half a months worth of rent. A car is a need in L.A. county, which is why we have the one of the most traveled highways in the U.S. if not the world.

 

[Aqualung]

Um, there are shortages of refined gasoline, which is why the price is high. :sarcastic

No, there aren't. Shortage is defined as a greater demand than supply. If there were a greater demand for gas, there would be huge lines. Since there aren't huge lines, it looks like demand and supply are pretty equal.

With the exception of the fuel effiecient car, neither of those are practical alternatives for a person who lives 30 miles out of town. It is a necessicity.

impractical isn't necessity. YOu say that aren't practicle but then jump to the idea that it is NECESSARY to have this ONE method. It's not necessary. I have presented numerous (you say impractical) possible solutions that make it not a necessity.

The furthest you'd have to walk is a two miles? :bonk:

You're right. At the very bottom of the map you might have to walk slightly further, but once you get to real downtown you dont.

Sure it's an option if you like retail and fast food jobs which don't pay you enough money to cover half a months worth of rent.

You're the one choosing to live in high-rent areas. It's the not the gas companies forcing you to live there. If it were, I could see it being a necessity, but it's not.

A car is a need in L.A. county, which is why we have the one of the most traveled highways in the U.S. if not the world.

correlation does not imply causation. You're going to need to put some more premises in there to make a valid argument.

 

[Mister_T]

No, there aren't. Shortage is defined as a greater demand than supply. If there were a greater demand for gas, there would be huge lines. Since there aren't huge lines, it looks like demand and supply are pretty equal.

I know the definition of shortage and sorry, there is a shortage of refined gasoline http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/17/news/economy/refineries/index.htm

There do not need to be huge lines of people for there to be a shortage.

impractical isn't necessity. YOu say that aren't practicle but then jump to the idea that it is NECESSARY to have this ONE method. It's not necessary. I have presented numerous (you say impractical) possible solutions that make it not a necessity.

And those methods you've presented can not be applied to everybody. When you live 30 miles from town and have a family to feed, a mortgage payment and deadlines to do these things, then yes it becomes a necessity.

You're right. At the very bottom of the map you might have to walk slightly further, but once you get to real downtown you dont.

Trace a bus route from Chatsworth to downtown and get back to me :areyoucra Heck you don't even have to go that far. Check out Hollywood Hills, Santa Monica, Culver City, Rancho Park, Palms...I could keep going. Keep in mind also people, like myself, don't work in L.A. city and have to drive 30 minutes on the freeway. You can't walk on the free way and there is no mass transit. The only option is driving a car. Downtown isn't even labeled on the map, it's shown as a close up. So I wonder with your vast knowledge of L.A. what you're considering "real" downtown? Google should be able to tell you.

You're the one choosing to live in high-rent areas. It's the not the gas companies forcing you to live there. If it were, I could see it being a necessity, but it's not.

There really is no such thing as "high rent areas" in L.A. county. The majority of the L.A. is "high rent" no matter where you live. And gas companies are forcing me to by the fuel I need to drive my car to feed my family and pay my rent to get to the job that isn't available in the suburban areas.

You're going to need to put some more premises in there to make a valid argument

Once you develop a better standing of how L.A. works and how farmers living 30 miles out of town need a automoble, you'll see the validity....actually, you probably won't then either.

 

[SoyLeche]

Remember, Aqualung is using the term with it's economic definition. Here it is. If there is a shortage, then the price needs to go up to take care of it. Instead of saying "there is a shortage" the more proper thing to say is "there would be a shortage if the price didn't rise".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shortage

shortage

A condition that exists when demand exceeds supply because of a lack of equilibrium in a market. If a price is artificially low, buyers want to buy more of a good than sellers are willing to sell. (Compare surplus.)

 

[Mister_T]

Remember, Aqualung is using the term with it's economic definition. Here it is. If there is a shortage, then the price needs to go up to take care of it. Instead of saying "there is a shortage" the more proper thing to say is "there would be a shortage if the price didn't rise".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shortage

shortage

A condition that exists when demand exceeds supply because of a lack of equilibrium in a market. If a price is artificially low, buyers want to buy more of a good than sellers are willing to sell. (Compare surplus.)

There is not enough gas being refined to meet demand. The media calls this a shortage in refining gasoline. But by all means tell the media how to report their news.

 

[Booko]

Over here in SoCal, we are a few cents shy of paying $3.50 for regular. A new record high. It's been the same thing year after year. Gas prices soar to a new unbelievable amount due to "refinery problems" or "terrorism" or "war with Iran" or "hurricanes" and then and the end of the business year these same gas companies are posting record breaking profits.
:computer:

Does anyone else see a pattern? Is anyone else sick of this? Am I missing something? Am I ignorant about this matter? Are you sick of me asking questions yet?

For 4 decades now I've watched the gas companies "surprise" that there was such demand for gasoline around Memorial Day weekend and Labor Day weekend.

The only silver lining I see in this is with gas prices so high, Americans will be more inclined to find a way to cut back on consumption.

I've contemplated going back to riding a 'cycle again, though in Atlanta that's a very dangerous thing to do. Still, I remember the gas shortages in the 70s very well. All we need is one hurricane this year and I might not be able to get around to get food I can actually eat. With a scooter or 'cycle -- I could make do getting to one little farmer's market near us. Most food in grocery stores I can't eat.

The local BJ's Warehouse and the farmer's market are both selling scooters now. They can't keep them in stock, they're selling so fast.

Personally, I'd like to see our gas at $5 a gallon, provided that extra cash goes not into oil exec pockets (they have enough already) but goes into a special fund that does something intelligent like, say, pay down our budget deficit. That way we could solve several problems at once -- people would rethink the amount of gas they use, car companies would then respond with more fuel efficient models, and we'd be doing something intelligent about remedying the results of our big spending gov't of the past half a decade.

 

[gmelrod]

If there is a shortage in refinery production space why havn't any new refinerys been built. It would be somthing to do with the profits. Capital reinvestment or somthing like that.

 

[Aqualung]

I know the definition of shortage and sorry, there is a shortage of refined gasoline

SoyLeche discussed this a bit, but no, there isn't a shortage. If there were a shortage, there would be more demand than supply, which means that more people would want it than could get it, which means there would be lines. It's not called "demand" if you are just sitting there thinking, "Yeah, I kind of want some gas, but I'm not going to get up and get it." This is desire, not demand.

And those methods you've presented can not be applied to everybody. When you live 30 miles from town and have a family to feed, a mortgage payment and deadlines to do these things, then yes it becomes a necessity.

No, it doesn't. It just becomes convenient. If you have a family to feed, buy cheaper food. Or send your family to live with relatives. Or sell your house and move someplace cheaper and/or closer to town.

Trace a bus route from Chatsworth to downtown and get back to me :areyoucra Heck you don't even have to go that far. Check out Hollywood Hills, Santa Monica, Culver City, Rancho Park, Palms...

It's called a transfer. It's where you can buy fare on one bus line and transfer to another bus line. Fro chatsworth, take the yellow one down until it hits that red one and transfer. = zero walking because the stop is right there. Take the red one to the thick red one. Conveniently, they both stop there, too. Then, take the thick red one all the way downtown. Very easy.

Keep in mind also people, like myself, don't work in L.A. city and have to drive 30 minutes on the freeway.

Actually, it looks like a number of them go on the freeway. In other words, yes, it is a viable solution.

You can't walk on the free way and there is no mass transit. The only option is driving a car. Downtown isn't even labeled on the map, it's shown as a close up.

It doesn't matter how close up it is. The scale is pretty darned small. You can tell it's not far between bus lines because of that little thingy in the bottom right hand corner that says X distance equals three miles in real life. Pretty simple.

There really is no such thing as "high rent areas" in L.A. county. The majority of the L.A. is "high rent" no matter where you live.

If you can't afford a high rent AND gas, then yes, you'll have to prioritise. It's what everybody has to do all the time. I can't afford a car and a motorcycle, so I'll have to buy a car until I get enough money for the motorcycle. I can't afford a computer and a laptop, so I had to by a desktop until I have enough money for a laptop. If you can't afford a high rent house and a car, then there is no reason other people should be obligated to give you both. Either move or stop complaining that you have to use LA's fine public transit.

And gas companies are forcing me to by the fuel I need to drive my car to feed my family and pay my rent to get to the job that isn't available in the suburban areas.

Looks like there's quite a lot of jobs available. What, do you now claim that not only should people be obligated to allow you your choice in house and in car, but also your optimum choice in job? Sometimes people have to work jobs they don't like because they value other things (like convenience, or living in LA suburbs) that they can't afford on the jobs they like.

http://www.ci.san-marino.ca.us/jobs.htm
http://400.careersite.com/candidate/jobs/ca-state/san_marino-city
http://www.job-search-engine.com/browse/location/california/los-angeles-county/san-marino/
http://www.ci.san-marino.ca.us/faq.htm

All of these list numbers of jobs. And there's tons of sites like them. I'm pretty sure San Marino has at least one mcDonald's, too.

Once you develop a better standing of how L.A. works and how farmers living 30 miles out of town need a automoble, you'll see the validity....actually, you probably won't then either.

I LIVE in a farming community. You have no knowledge upon which to base my supposed ignorance of farming communities, and your statement shows how presumptuously wrong it was.

 

[Booko]

I'm not changing my argument to "convienence." It's staying at necessity. Gas Is a necessity for people who work in down town and live in the suburbs. There's not a mass transit going from the L.A. suburbs to downtown. Driving is your only option.

Atlanta is pretty much the same way. Our public transport is spotty at best, and in some places nonexistent.

And...sidewalks? What are those?

(Should I post pics???)

Atlanta is NOT a pedestrian or bike friendly sort of place.

We've considered having our son just ride his bike home from college this fall, since he's maybe 10 miles away.

The problem is, he'd probably be run down in less than a year, so... maybe not.

If he wants to come home, I'll just arrange to get him when I'm in the area buying groceries at the health food store nearby.

Oh yeah...public transport. My old hometown in Michigan (138th largest city in the U.S.) has public transport.

As long as where you need to go is between 6am and 6pm Monday through Saturday, you could take the bus. Just stay home on Sunday. If your Mom is sick or you work that day -- tough toenails for you I guess.

 

[Booko]

Huge shortages in gasoline are the result of refineries not being fixed. There is a solution to the problem and little if anything is being done.

I believe the nothing being done is quite intentional. Like other high-pollution industries that don't want to be bothered not poisoning us, they're trying to hold us over a barrel until we're so desparate for gas that we'll let them build refineries any way they want with no inconvenient limits to avoid wholesale pollution.

We've seen plenty of industry move overseas so they didn't have to be bothered with troublesome things like labor laws and being responsible about not dumping poison willy-nilly.

The industries that can't just move overseas have to find other methods to circumvent such inconvenient things as regulations designed to protect the populace.

 

[SoyLeche]

SoyLeche discussed this a bit, but no, there isn't a shortage. If there were a shortage, there would be more demand than supply, which means that more people would want it at the current price than could get it, which means there would be lines. It's not called "demand" if you are just sitting there thinking, "Yeah, I kind of want some gas, but I'm not going to get up and get it." This is desire, not demand.

I fixed your post.

 

[Mister_T]

SoyLeche discussed this a bit, but no, there isn't a shortage. If there were a shortage, there would be more demand than supply, which means that more people would want it than could get it, which means there would be lines. It's not called "demand" if you are just sitting there thinking, "Yeah, I kind of want some gas, but I'm not going to get up and get it." This is desire, not demand.

Read my response to him.

No, it doesn't. It just becomes convenient. If you have a family to feed, buy cheaper food. Or send your family to live with relatives. Or sell your house and move someplace cheaper and/or closer to town.

You have to drive 30 miles into town to GET food in some places. And as I keep pointing out and as you keep ignoring, not everyone has those options available.

Actually, it looks like a number of them go on the freeway. In other words, yes, it is a viable solution.

Where I work isn't even on that map. 30 min out of town = No walking and no mass transit.

It doesn't matter how close up it is. The scale is pretty darned small. You can tell it's not far between bus lines because of that little thingy in the bottom right hand corner that says X distance equals three miles in real life. Pretty simple.

If it's so easy do the milage on these cities which you seemed to have missed. Hollywood Hills, Santa Monica, Culver City, Rancho Park, Palms.

It's called a transfer. It's where you can buy fare on one bus line and transfer to another bus line. Fro chatsworth, take the yellow one down until it hits that red one and transfer. = zero walking because the stop is right there. Take the red one to the thick red one. Conveniently, they both stop there, too. Then, take the thick red one all the way downtown. Very easy.

No one said it was hard, but it requirew more walking than 2 miles, which is what I was trying to show you. And you still have yet to tell me where downtown is exactly.

Either move or stop complaining that you have to use LA's fine public transit.

Right, because everyone can just get up and move wherever they want Quite a fantasy land you live in.

Looks like there's quite a lot of jobs available. What, do you now claim that not only should people be obligated to allow you your choice in house and in car, but also your optimum choice in job? Sometimes people have to work jobs they don't like because they value other things (like convenience, or living in LA suburbs) that they can't afford on the jobs they like.

Jobs require people to have certain skill. Not everyone has all of the skills they need for jobs close by despite what you think (or don't). Some people have specific trade skills that they can only utilze in places away from their home. Like construction workers. They can't take a bus to work. But I guess they could always quit their job and work at two McDonalds so they don't have to drive to work each day Good thing we live in the real world and these things aren't an option for everyone.

I LIVE in a farming community. You have no knowledge upon which to base my supposed ignorance of farming communities, and your statement shows how presumptuously wrong it was.

I could tell you live in a farming community. With your "knowledge" of L.A. and how it's transit works it was obvious where your ignorance lies. And I'm sure the farmer who lives out in Nebraska farmland would disagree with you about a car being a necessity.

 

[SoyLeche]

If there is a shortage in refinery production space why havn't any new refinerys been built. It would be somthing to do with the profits. Capital reinvestment or somthing like that.

Largely due to environmental restrictions. They were talking on the radio about a proposed refinery that has been trying to get approval to build for upwards of 10 years and still hasn't been approved, but I don't know where that is so I can't verify it.

I wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that the oil companies aren't actively trying to build more. It probably hasn't looked like a good investment - there is a lot of uncertainty in this market. Mister_T provided a link a while back to a news story that talked about it.