Social Justice and Islam

[Bismillah]

Criticism of religion is never taken well,don't worry though the same social injustice is in the books of the Bible too.

So that was a pretty meaningless statement that did nothing to further your point.

 

[Looncall]

Except for the fact that the "slave" was given an option towards freedom, the state sponsored the freeing of slaves through its own public charity, Islam focuses on freeing these "slaves" and the high merit of doing so, former "slaves" within an Islamic context never fulfilled the stereotypes found everywhere else in the world and were treated as citizens of the state, and the only people who were made slaves were those engaged in active warfare, often guilty of condemnable torture. If anything a Prisoner of War is an accurate label, the term slave just reveals your agenda.

This would have come as quite a surprise to the people worked to death in the galleys of the Barbary States.

Many of them were collected from countries such as Italy (and even Iceland!) in slave-taking raids. You are lieing through your teeth.

What people do counts; what is in old books doesn't.

 

[Bismillah]

What people do counts; what is in old books doesn't.

Ah sorry no it doesn't, you see the actions of people who claim to be of a religion don't impact a religion. Rather the actions of the Prophet of Islam and even the actions of the four rightly guided Caliphates do and their actions resonate with my words.

I would certainly agree that what happened in the slave trade in Africa and in Vienna are condemnable but that is all they are, disgraceful actions done by men.

 

[sandandfoam]

Criticism of religion is never taken well,don't worry though the same social injustice is in the books of the Bible too.

lol England that's not criticism.
It's on a par with me saying that Cromwell proves England isn't liberal in matters of religion.

 

[sandandfoam]

This would have come as quite a surprise to the people worked to death in the galleys of the Barbary States.

Many of them were collected from countries such as Italy (and even Iceland!) in slave-taking raids. You are lieing through your teeth.

What people do counts; what is in old books doesn't.

That's just too daft for words

 

[England my lionheart]

So that was a pretty meaningless statement that did nothing to further your point.

The point is Slavery is an injustice but Slavery is acceptable in both Bible and Qur'an,criticism of either isn't taken well which leads to you saying i have an agenda instead of acknowledging that its Slavery.

Social justice in the Qur'an is that of 1400 hundred years ago where Slavery was acceptable just as it was for Christians,in countries that have come through the enlightenment this is not acceptable.

 

[Bismillah]

Ah EML circular logic, I was wondering when we would revert after you decided not to argue against my evidence, that's that.

 

[sandandfoam]

To be honest slave trading of the distant past never entered my had as having anything to do with the subject at hand.

I was thinking more along the lines of what the Quran says e.g. 5.8

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness

I take this to be an exhortation to strive for social justice, I was wondering what others thought?

 

[England my lionheart]

lol England that's not criticism.
It's on a par with me saying that Cromwell proves England isn't liberal in matters of religion.

Well its taken as criticism,really though its just stating the facts

 

[England my lionheart]

To be honest slave trading of the distant past never entered my had as having anything to do with the subject at hand.

Slavery is still practiced today,thats the problem,its not in the past

I was thinking more along the lines of what the Quran says e.g. 5.8
I take this to be an exhortation to strive for social justice, I was wondering what others thought?

Of course we should strive for social justice which we are slowly making progress

 

[Badran]

Thanks for the thread Stephen, i'll just share the way i see the basic idea of social justice in Islam.

049.013 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

In Islam, as a rule, it is established that all humans are equal. Men and women, people of all races and cultural backgrounds. The only difference between people, is determined by how much good they do, and that is only up for god to determine. Based on that, they all should be treated the same way. The fact that society was so bad at the time Islam has begun, had to naturally have to be dealt with in addition to the rules established. An example, which is used countless times, in Islam, wine is prohibited. Yet Islam as have been mentioned many times have not prohibited it at once, why is that? That is because of the society's condition. Their attachment to wine, meant that it would be better to rid them of that habit gradually.

So its not fair to look at Islam disregarding this fact, or misinterpreting it into meaning that the Quran is only suitable for older times. Islam is not static, neither does it ignore its surroundings, otherwise god wouldn't have dealt with the issues of society in such fashion in some cases. Today, and well before today, owning slaves is no longer acceptable. The habit is almost completely eradicated, and to hang to it only means we've missed what Islam was trying to do about that habit in the first place, which is eradicating it gradually. The mere existence of verses talking about owning slaves, doesn't mean Islam advocate nor condone slavery. As like i said it was there, and it wasn't going to go away anytime soon, and it would be naive to ignore it. So Islam set the rules to elevate the status of slaves, which was an advancement at the time. So since now the norm is that its unacceptable, we should also take Islam's stance and advance from here, not go backwards.

Last thing i want to say is that mentioning what Muslims did later on is not fair, because quite clearly, the two words Islam and Muslim were made for a reason, and that is because they are two different things. One is a set of principles, the other is a human supposedly trying to implement it.
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[BruceDLimber]

It seems to me that social justice is integral to Islam. Is this how you read it?

Islam AS REVEALED, definitely!

But tragically, it's been grossly corrupted by various individuals and groups over the millenia so that all too often, you now get circumstances like the persecution--and execution!--of Baha'is in Iran IN DIRECT VIOLATION of the Qur'an's command "Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256).

So justice has today been degraded to a sometime thing in far too much of Islam.

Which is the more ironic given that the Baha'i scriptures state explicitly (God speaking): "The best-beloved of all things in My sight is justice!"

Peace,

Bruce

 

[TashaN]

Why is it that a rather healthy number of Muslims consider democracy, civil rights, and free speech to be either irrelevant or unIslamic?

Said who?

 

[Looncall]

Last thing i want to say is that mentioning what Muslims did later on is not fair, because quite clearly, the two words Islam and Muslim were made for a reason, and that is because they are two different things. One is a set of principles, the other is a human supposedly trying to implement it.
​

I don't buy this. Seeing that the people of muslim societies behave in ways directly opposite to what you claim islam promotes, the best one can say for islam is that it is wholly ineffective.

What people do counts. What is in old books doesn't.

 

[Badran]

I don't buy this.

A fact, two words, different meaning. You don't agree, that won't change that this is the way it is.

Seeing that the people of muslim societies behave in ways directly opposite to what you claim islam promotes

Some do, not all. And if we assume all do, we still have to understand why is that the case.

the best one can say for islam is that it is wholly ineffective.

No that doesn't necessarily follow. For more than one reason.

What people do counts. What is in old books doesn't.

No, completely wrong. What people do counts on people, what is written in books counts on those books and their authors.

The only reason to take your approach is if one was lazy and unable to take the time to actually study whats in those old books.

 

[Looncall]

A fact, two words, different meaning. You don't agree, that won't change that this is the way it is.



Some do, not all. And if we assume all do, we still have to understand why is that the case.



No that doesn't necessarily follow. For more than one reason.



No, completely wrong. What people do counts on people, what is written in books counts on those books and their authors.

The only reason to take your approach is if one was lazy and unable to take the time to actually study whats in those old books.

Why study the books when the stuff in them is so clearly ineffective? If those who subscribe to the books also live counter to the tenets in them, why I would bother with those books, since they are evidently useless?

I am getting very tired of muslims proclaiming their moral superiority while at the same time muslim societies are so rotten.

I am supposing that muslim-majority societies display islam in its native state, unencumbered by a non-muslim milieu. Do you agree that that is reasonable?

 

[Badran]

Why study the books when the stuff in them is so clearly ineffective? If those who subscribe to the books also live counter to the tenets in them, why I would bother with those books, since they are evidently useless?

Once again this doesn't necessarily follow. Just because the book isn't followed entirely, doesn't mean it has to be ineffective.

I am getting very tired of muslims proclaiming their moral superiority while at the same time muslim societies are so rotten.

Perhaps you should address that to those Muslims. I don't proclaim any moral superiority.

I am supposing that muslim-majority societies display islam in its native state, unencumbered by a non-muslim milieu. Do you agree that that is reasonable?

It is reasonable to think this might be the case, or likely to be the case. Its not reasonable though in my opinion to think that this has to be the case.

 

[Looncall]

Once again this doesn't necessarily follow. Just because the book isn't followed entirely, doesn't mean it has to be ineffective.



Perhaps you should address that to those Muslims. I don't proclaim any moral superiority.



It is reasonable to think this might be the case, or likely to be the case. Its not reasonable though in my opinion to think that this has to be the case.

Thank you for your considered reply and your pleasant approach.

What has attracted my attention is that I hear of oppression, violence and corruption from many places dominated by muslims. For example: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia. Even here in Canada, a very peaceful place, when muslims disagree, the result is apt to be violence, in contrast to almost every other community. Given that these places surely have a diversity of underlying cultures, islam seems to be the common thread. What am I to make of that?

 

[Badran]

Thank you for your considered reply and your pleasant approach.

You're most welcome.

What has attracted my attention is that I hear of oppression, violence and corruption from many places dominated by muslims. For example: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia. Even here in Canada, a very peaceful place, when muslims disagree, the result is apt to be violence, in contrast to almost every other community. Given that these places surely have a diversity of underlying cultures, islam seems to be the common thread. What am I to make of that?

I'm not experienced enough to be honest to effectively analyze those countries and say why they experience such poor conditions. But at the same time, with the exception of Canada, i notice huge problems within those countries that contribute greatly to the situation they're in.

I won't deny though that the lets say 'type' of supposed Islamic thinking spread in those countries contributes a good deal to the problem. That along side a culture filled with negative ideas about women, that are also stuck to religion.

But if you look at other countries containing a majority of Muslims, they're not doing so bad. Turkey or Malaysia for example.

As for Canada, and Muslims in the west in general, i don't really think its actually a problem with most Muslims there, but rather with a minority of them, that gets loads of attention. Muslims in western countries in general are to a good extent viewed in an unfair, negative, generalizing fashion which is contributed to by the media.

 

[kai]

"social justice" what is that, and how can a 7th century book relate to what it means in this day and age? Isnt it all relative to the age and society you live in, i mean in Anglo Saxon times trial by ordeal or Trial by combat was deemed fair. Not so now! and slavery all perfectly above board at one time.