Socialized Medicine

[metis]

I checked "Yes-- Other".

Even though probably most here see me on the "left", the reality is that I'm a mix-- either that or I'm just plain old mixed up.

 

[VoidCat]

I am no-other as in I dont know enough about other healthcare systems. Could universial healthcare help? I dont know as I know very little about it. I know ours sucks tho and needs a change.

 

[PureX]

Well maybe it should of simply stayed a Republican proposal rather than making it a Democrat first priority.

It was no one's "priority". Obama wanted universal health care, but after all the giant corporate bribes were paid, his super-majority of democrats in both the House and the Senate all suddenly fell into a stupor of ignorance, and couldn't figure out how to implement such universal reforms. (All they had to do was expand medicare and set price caps like every other nation has long ago done. But it's those price caps that send the U.S. corporate conglomerates into abject panic mode, and get them throwing around the bribes like nobody's business.) So after all the payoffs were in, someone dug up that 25 year old republican plan that forces everyone to buy health insurance; that the republicans immediately dubbed "Obamacare" to escape any responsibility for it, and they all passed that off as "health care reform" (which it mostly was not).

Blaming the Republicans is just a cop out for the extreme idiocy that followed.

So was blaming Obama. He actually WANTED universal health care. But we can't have it in this country so long as all our legislators are owned by corporate lobbyists and their legalized bribe money. So let's put the blame where it belongs - on legalized corruption.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I am no-other as in I dont know enough about other healthcare systems. Could universial healthcare help? I dont know as I know very little about it. I know ours sucks tho and needs a change.

I appreciate the honesty and hesitancy to commit until further knowledge is attained.

 

[PureX]

I am no-other as in I dont know enough about other healthcare systems. Could universial healthcare help? I don't know as I know very little about it. I know ours sucks tho and needs a change.

Here is an older, but still excellent documentary on the subject. It's called "Health Care Around The World", done by Frontline.

 

[VoidCat]

Here is an older, but still excellent documentary on the subject. It's called "Health Care Around The World", done by Frontline.

Thank you

 

[exchemist]

We need something. When I lost my job last year I lost my pretty damn good health benefits. I’m on Social Security retirement now but not eligible for Medicare for another year. And I have health issues. I was not eligible for NJ Medicaid because I make too much with my $713/week unemployment gross. So I had to find something through NJ Cares, or some **** like that, which is Obamacare. I lucked out and got something close to my employee benefits. But it was no easy task. I contributed to my employee benefits, but I’m paying for this on less than half my former salary. So we need something.

This is a classic example. Had you, for instance, lost your job through ill health, you would be faced with scratching around to find a way to fund treatment at the very time in your life you are least able to do that! Nobody in a wealthy country should be faced with that insecurity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

My healthcare is publically funded, not "government controlled".

As is mine in Canada. What diagnoses and what treatments I get are between me and my doctor -- and a specialist if my doctor so orders. The government's job is to pay. Yes, out of taxes, for sure, but I am very happy to pay those taxes.

A few years ago, my partner came down with Guillain-Barre Syndrome, was paralyzed from the neck down, in hospital and rehabilitation facilities for 8 1/2 months, with another year of home-care. During the hospital care, he had two rounds of Intravenous Immunoglobulin, and during his 3 weeks in ICU, had plasmapheresis (plasma exchange) and a feeding tube directly through the abdominal wall into the stomach (percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy).

Some years before that, I required spine surgery (done by a neurosurgeon) called a lumbar laminectomy. My doctor referred me to the surgeon. The surgeon ordered an MRI and we made the decision to go ahead between the two of us. The government was not consulted.

All this ran very well into the million-plus dollars. We paid -- nothing. I love my health care system.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well I already have universal. Sure it has its drawbacks. But no one goes bankrupt because they dare get cancer. What’s the joke? If Breaking Bad were made in any other civilised country it would be a slice of life drama about a man getting chemo?

That said pretty sure the Swiss model has us beat. So improvements can be made.

And our government is incompetent. They bungled the AstraZeneca vaccine rollout. So the trust might not be at an all time high. Still most will get vaccinated I’m sure

 

[SigurdReginson]

I find it interesting that so far, regardless of political alignment, the consensus seems to be yes almost unanimously (at least in this forum). The only no is due to a need for more information before committing.

I wonder how this would compare vs. america as a whole if you were to just ask people on the street?

 

[crossfire]

I want universal health care because I don't want my employer serving as a gatekeeper regarding what kind of health care I can have access to. Those decisions are between me and my doctor!

 

[Moonjuice]

Sooner or later, middle class Americans will come to realize that this is not a left or right issue. The real problem is the ruling class. The elite. The 1%. This group has done a fantastic job convincing the rest of Americans that one side (R or D) is the real reason you can't seem to get ahead in this world. In reality, our government is made up of millionaires and their careers are funded by billionaires. This group, who we elect to decide how to spend our tax dollars, pay almost no taxes themselves! Certainly not at the same % the rest of us are forced to pay. If the whole country paid an equal share, we could stop talking about $400,000 surgeries, for people that make $40/k per year and start asking the real questions. Why does a pill cost 800% more in the U.S. than the same pill costs in Canada? If the people who rule our country paid the same % of their income in taxes that we pay, healthcare could be free and we'd never pay a $1 more than we pay now. Who wouldn't support that? BTW, my father is a retired Navy chief. He has 100% free healthcare and he loves it. No waiting in long lines. No terrible doctors. It's wonderful and he pays nothing.

 

[crossfire]

There was a not-for-profit group health cooperative here years ago that had the worst health care! They couldn't even get vision prescriptions correct to the point where people getting their glasses there would fail the eye exam at the department of licensing! I also know several women whose babies died due to refusal of care--simple things that could have saved the infant's life--but were refused. Complications arising from this refusal of care also endangered the lives of the women--they gained secondary septic infections and were left untreated and were turned away. They had to go elsewhere to get life-saving treatment. Group cooperatives obviously need outside regulation and oversight.

Supplies are often the first thing to get cut in any system--capitalistic or socialistic. Individuals in Russia and the Ukraine usually keep their own supply of needles, syringes, gloves, etc to take with them to the hospital so they will have fresh ones in case the procedures they are going in for require them. If you don't bring your own, the hospital will probably just reuse whatever used supplies they can grab.

 

[Brickjectivity]

There was a not-for-profit group health cooperative here years ago that had the worst health care! They couldn't even get vision prescriptions correct to the point where people getting their glasses there would fail the eye exam at the department of licensing! I also know several women whose babies died due to refusal of care--simple things that could have saved the infant's life--but were refused. Complications arising from this refusal of care also endangered the lives of the women--they gained secondary septic infections and were left untreated and were turned away. They had to go elsewhere to get life-saving treatment. Group cooperatives obviously need outside regulation and oversight.

Supplies are often the first thing to get cut in any system--capitalistic or socialistic. Individuals in Russia and the Ukraine usually keep their own supply of needles, syringes, gloves, etc to take with them to the hospital so they will have fresh ones in case the procedures they are going in for require them. If you don't bring your own, the hospital will probably just reuse whatever used supplies they can grab.

Ukrainians and Russians are extremely creative and hardy. The USSR was such a tragedy. The people tried so hard to make a utopia for everyone.

Honestly though I'm thinking about bringing my own syringes and gloves in, because that might save me hundred of dollars. I never know what I'm going to be charged for a syringe.

 

[exchemist]

Sooner or later, middle class Americans will come to realize that this is not a left or right issue. The real problem is the ruling class. The elite. The 1%. This group has done a fantastic job convincing the rest of Americans that one side (R or D) is the real reason you can't seem to get ahead in this world. In reality, our government is made up of millionaires and their careers are funded by billionaires. This group, who we elect to decide how to spend our tax dollars, pay almost no taxes themselves! Certainly not at the same % the rest of us are forced to pay. If the whole country paid an equal share, we could stop talking about $400,000 surgeries, for people that make $40/k per year and start asking the real questions. Why does a pill cost 800% more in the U.S. than the same pill costs in Canada? If the people who rule our country paid the same % of their income in taxes that we pay, healthcare could be free and we'd never pay a $1 more than we pay now. Who wouldn't support that? BTW, my father is a retired Navy chief. He has 100% free healthcare and he loves it. No waiting in long lines. No terrible doctors. It's wonderful and he pays nothing.

The problem with health is far more specific, though. In the US there is a market failure, because the buyers of the service are the insurance companies, not the patients, and they don't care what price they are charged by the hospitals as they can pass it on, via premiums, to the employers who fund the health insurance packages as part of the salary package. So it's a racket, between the insurers and the medical companies, and there's not a damn thing the employers or the employees/patients can do about it.

 

[Moonjuice]

The problem with health is far more specific, though. In the US there is a market failure, because the buyers of the service are the insurance companies, not the patients, and they don't care what price they are charged by the hospitals as they can pass it on, via premiums, to the employers who fund the health insurance packages as part of the salary package. So it's a racket, between the insurers and the medical companies, and there's not a damn thing the employers or the employees/patients can do about it.

Totally agree.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I find it interesting that so far, regardless of political alignment, the consensus seems to be yes almost unanimously (at least in this forum). The only no is due to a need for more information before committing.

I wonder how this would compare vs. america as a whole if you were to just ask people on the street?

This has so far been a great debate site. The general inability of throwing out unsubstantiated or incorrect things are immediately leaped upon by informed and intelligent people. Information is provided with sources and so far I haven't seen anyone back down from point by point analysis for their reasonings. It is currently my belief that when all of the misinformation has been removed most people are able to accept the truth. The majority of Americans need to unlearn years of brainwashing to find that they have been lied to. Also its great that the "well I know a person who hates it from X country " and almost every time someone from that country can chime in and counter.

So its no small wonder an objectively better system that works round the world in small to large economies will win the favor of a population that is informed about it. I kind of want a similar experience for the majority of my fellow countrymen as I think it would benefit our society greatly.

 

[PureX]

This has so far been a great debate site. The general inability of throwing out unsubstantiated or incorrect things are immediately leaped upon by informed and intelligent people. Information is provided with sources and so far I haven't seen anyone back down from point by point analysis for their reasonings. It is currently my belief that when all of the misinformation has been removed most people are able to accept the truth. The majority of Americans need to unlearn years of brainwashing to find that they have been lied to. Also its great that the "well I know a person who hates it from X country " and almost every time someone from that country can chime in and counter.

So its no small wonder an objectively better system that works round the world in small to large economies will win the favor of a population that is informed about it. I kind of want a similar experience for the majority of my fellow countrymen as I think it would benefit our society greatly.

Here is the fundamental problem. When every other nation set about creating a universal health care system, one of the first things they realized is that health care is an automatic monopoly. The buyers MUST buy (on pain of death and suffering) what the sellers are selling, and the sellers all know this. So they will inevitably price-gouge the buyers because greed is, after all, a primary motive of humans behavior. So all these other nations realized that they must establish some sort of system for capping prices to stop all this inevitable price-gouging, and thereby keep the cost of healthcare down to an affordable level. And that is what they have done.

Here in the U.S., any politician that dares to even utter the words "price caps" will be immediately discredited, drummed out of office, and possibly jailed or murdered by a very well organized and very wealthy cabal of corporate interests that are currently making countless billions of dollars by price-gouging the American people for everything they need to live in a modern, interdependent society: energy, housing, transportation, communication, health care, and so on. And ALL of them are mortified by the idea that the government might set price caps to stop their price-gouging, and choke off the giant money pump that they have turned the whole culture and country into, for themselves. And so many U.S. citizens have been brainwashed by a lifetime of lies, and by their own greed, into supporting this exploitation, even though they, themselves, are being destroyed by it. They have been taught that greed, exploitation, and selfishness are "freedom", even as they have been enslaved by it.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Here is the fundamental problem. When every other nation set about creating a universal health care system, one of the first things they realized is that health care is an automatic monopoly. The buyers MUST buy (on pain of death and suffering) what the sellers are selling, and the sellers all know this. So they will inevitably price-gouge the buyers because greed is, after all, a primary motive of humans behavior. So all these other nations realized that they must establish some sort of system for capping prices to stop all this inevitable price-gouging, and thereby keep the cost of healthcare down to an affordable level. And that is what they have done.

Here in the U.S., any politician that dares to even utter the words "price caps" will be immediately discredited, drummed out of office, and possibly jailed or murdered by a very well organized and very wealthy cabal of corporate interests that are currently making countless billions of dollars by price-gouging the American people for everything they need to live in a modern, interdependent society: energy, housing, transportation, communication, health care, and so on. And ALL of them are mortified by the idea that the government might set price caps to stop their price-gouging, and choke off the giant money pump that they have turned the whole culture and country into, for themselves. And so many U.S. citizens have been brainwashed by a lifetime of lies, and by their own greed, into supporting this exploitation, even though they, themselves, are being destroyed by it. They have been taught that greed, exploitation, and selfishness are "freedom", even as they have been enslaved by it.

Prior to 1973 it was illegal to be a for profit health organization in the US. The private organizations that existed prior to this year, while not great, were seen as a public good rather than a money making scheme. Most countries that have socialized medicine established it either around this time or before. So they never even had to face off against the profit motivated propaganda machine.

 

[PureX]

Prior to 1973 it was illegal to be a for profit health organization in the US. The private organizations that existed prior to this year, while not great, were seen as a public good rather than a money making scheme. Most countries that have socialized medicine established it either around this time or before. So they never even had to face off against the profit motivated propaganda machine.

That's a valid point, but the propaganda isn't the greatest difficulty we face, now, it's that this billionaire class and their corporate conglomerates have so much money that they can easily buy off any judge, politician, or media outlet that could act to thwart their greedy agenda. And they have done so successfully for many decades. It's reached the point where they write whatever legislation they want, themselves, and simply hand it to their paid toadies in the legislature to pass into law. The needs of the American people aren't even on any of their radar.