• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Some Common Arguments Against Anarchy*

Novo

Member
Some Common Arguments Against Anarchy*

We are often asked how an anarchist society would deal with, for instance, murderers. Who would stop them without the police?

Most murders are crimes of passion and therefore unpreventable by police or anyone else. Hopefully, however, in a saner, less frustrating society such `crimes' would be less common.

Our rulers claim to be protecting us from each other. Actually they are more interested in protecting themselves and `their' property from us.

If we, as members of a local community, owned and shared all resources it would become absurd to steal. An important motive for crime would be abolished.

These local communities would need to develop some means of dealing with individuals who harmed others. Instead of a few thousand professional police there would be 51 million in the `United Kingdom' alone. Ultimately, our only protection is each other.

Prisons fail to improve or reform anyone. Local people aware of each others' circumstances would be able to apply more suitable solutions, in keeping with the needs of the victim and the offender. The present penal system, on the other hand, creates criminal behaviour. Long term prisoners are often rendered incapable of surviving outside an institution that makes all their decisions for them. How is locking people up with others of an anti-social turn of mind (the worst of whom are the screws) supposed to develop responsibility and reasonable behaviour? Of course it does just the opposite. The majority of prisoners re-offend.

Another question anarchists have had thrown at them for years is: "But who would do all the dirty and unpleasant jobs?". We imagine each community would devise its own rota system. What is so impossible about that?

Then there's the question: "But what about those who refuse to work?". Well, social pressure can be applied. People could, for example, be `sent to Coventry', i.e. ignored. In drastic cases they could be expelled from the community.

But people need to work. People have a definite need for creative activity. Notice how many people spend their time working on cars or motor bikes, in gardening, making clothes, creating music. These are all creative activities that can be enjoyable. They are usually thought of as hobbies rather than work, since we're brought up to think of work as a torment to be endured.

In this society of course, work is a torment. Naturally, we hate it. This does not mean that we are naturally lazy, it means that we resent being treated like machines, compelled to do mostly meaningless work for someone else's benefit. Work does not have to be like that and if it were controlled by the people who had to do it, it certainly would not be.

Of course some jobs just have to be done, and there are few methods in sight of making collecting rubbish a fun occupation. Everybody would have to take a share and everybody would have to see to it that nobody got away with shirking their responsibilities.

A further point worth making is that unemployment is only a problem created by capitalism. In a sensible world there would be no unemployment. Everyone would have a shorter working week, because they would only produce things that were needed. If we were to get rid of the parasitic ruling class, we would be free of most of the economic pressure to work.

If you still need to be convinced that an anarchist society could solve the problem of people failing to meet their responsibilities, then imagine yourself being compelled to face a meeting of the whole community you live in and being publicly discussed as a problem. Ugh!

Yet another common objection is: "Well, perhaps it would work on a peasant village scale, but how can you run a complex industrial society without the authority of managers?". Well, in the first place, we believe that society needs to be broken down to smaller-scale units as much as possible, so as to make them comprehensible to small groups of ordinary people. It is a noticeable fact of organisation, as well as a basic principle of anarchist theory, that small groups of people can work efficiently together, and co-ordinate with other such groups; whereas large formless groups are gullible and easily dominated. Expanding this point it is interesting to note that recently the famous `economies of scale' that justify steel works, for example, covering many square miles, have been increasingly called into question. Beyond a certain point factories, farms, administrative systems and so on, actually get much less efficient as they get larger.

As much as is reasonably possible should be produced and consumed locally. Some facilities, however, would have to be dealt with on a regional or even larger scale. There is no insoluble problem about this, in fact solutions were found by the Spanish working class in the thirties. The Barcelona Bus Company doubled services, made generous contributions to the City Entertainments Collective and produced gulls for the front in the bus workshops. All this was achieved with a smaller workforce, as many had left to fight the fascists. This amazing increase in efficiency, despite the war and serious shortages of essential supplies, is not surprising on reflection after all, who can best run a bus company? Obviously bus workers.

All the Barcelona workers were organised into syndicates - groups of workers in the same enterprise, sub-divided into work groups. Each group made its own day-to-day decisions and appointed a delegate to represent their views on wider issues concerning the whole factory, or even the whole region. Each of the delegates was instructed in what to say by their workmates and the task of being a delegate was frequently rotated. Delegates could be changed at short notice if it was felt they were getting out of line (the principle of recallability). These show the basic anarchist principles of free federation in practice. By adding more levels of delegation it is possible to cope with organising activity on any scale, without anyone giving up their freedom to work as they choose. This idea of federalism is illustrated again in a later section called `Local action and organisation'.

Let's move on to another objection "Wouldn't a society without a State have no defence from attack by foreign states?".

Well, it must be said that having a State hasn't prevented us from being taken over by the US Empire. In fact `our own' armed forces are used against us as an army of occupation. The State does not defend us. It uses us as cannon fodder to defend our rulers, who, if the truth be untangled, are our real enemies.

Returning to the question, a classic anarchist answer is to arm the people. Anarchist militias in Spain very nearly won the civil war despite shortages of weapons, treachery by the Communists and intervention by Germany and Italy. Where they made their mistake was in allowing themselves to be integrated into an army run by statists. An armed population would be difficult to subdue.

But yes, we could be destroyed. We believe that the real nuclear threat is from `our side'. The American rulers would probably exterminate us all rather than willingly allow us our freedom.

Against the threat of destruction our best defence is the revolutionary movement in other countries. Put another way, our best defence against the Russian nuclear bomb is the current movement of the Polish workers. This may well spread to the rest of the Soviet Empire. Conversely their best hope of not being vapourised is that we might succeed in abolishing `our' bomb. (CND has not yet realised that banning the megadeath weapons means banning the State!)

It is instructive how the Russian revolution was saved from wholesale British intervention by a series of mutinies and `blackings' by British workers.

True security would be guaranteed if we could develop our international contacts to the point where we can be sure that the workers in each `enemy' country will not allow their rulers to attack us.

The last few pages have been a very brief introduction to the way anarchists think. There are plenty more ideas and details to be found in various books on the subject. But basically you understand anarchism by living it, becoming involved with other anarchists and working on projects, so this is the theme around which the majority of this little book is written anarchist actions.

*First printed and published by: The Anarchist Media Group, Cardiff (UK)
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I read it. I just haven't decided if I'm going to post yet :). I posted a lengthy argument once before on the subject to validate my use of the arguments, and I haven't decided if I want to do so again.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I`ll debate it.

First let me say that I`m not altogether thrilled with the system we have in place and the way many anarchists predictions seem to be coming to pass about the loss of checks and balances.

However I don`t think the system you`ve described will work, it leaves out the nasty little trait of humans to be self serving to the point of harming other humans.

Most murders are crimes of passion and therefore unpreventable by police or anyone else. Hopefully, however, in a saner, less frustrating society such `crimes' would be less common.
Most but not all.

I don`t have any stats in front of me but I`m inclined to say murder for greed might very well increase simply becuase punishment for it would be easily escapable or non-existant.

Who would decide if someone was actually guilty?
Would you organize a court system?
Anarchy over..that would be a system of government.

Anything else would just be mob mentality vigilante justice.


If we, as members of a local community, owned and shared all resources it would become absurd to steal. An important motive for crime would be abolished.
If you haven`t noticed humanity is very often absurd simply for the sake of being absurd.
Stealing wouldn`t stop nor even decrease, most people do not steal because they are in poverty.
They steal because they think they can get away with an easy gain.
Under the system you propose you would be stacking the deck in their favor.

Again the only way to deal with it under anarchy is nothing more than Mob Mentality vigilante justice.

Then there's the question: "But what about those who refuse to work?". Well, social pressure can be applied. People could, for example, be `sent to Coventry', i.e. ignored. In drastic cases they could be expelled from the community.
That would be a form of government and a form that holds less justice than the one we have now.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Novo said:
Some Common Arguments Against Anarchy*
Here's one from George Monbiot's 'The Age of Consent':

Unless anarchism suddenly and simultaneously swept away all the world's states and then, by equally mysterious means, prevented new ones from emerging; it is hard to see how the people of anarchist communities could survive when thrust into conflict or competition with a neighbouring state, which - by definition - would possess the wherewithal to raise an army.

Could an anarchist community raise a useful military, engage an enemy effectively, and protect itself and its resources? Should we all just learn to love a little?
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Novo said:
No Notice? Is this of interest to no one? Im open to debate.
Isn't anarchy the "lack" of structure and organization? The world you're describing seems rather organized for anarchy.

Personally, while I'd like to believe that the "kinder and gentler" human nature would prevail, our current world suggests it's just not going to happen. There will always be bullies or self-serving individuals who make a grab at power and then enforce their will (for good or bad) on the rest of the populace with the help of those who enjoy flexing their muscles.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Melody said:
Isn't anarchy the "lack" of structure and organization? The world you're describing seems rather organized for anarchy.

Personally, while I'd like to believe that the "kinder and gentler" human nature would prevail, our current world suggests it's just not going to happen. There will always be bullies or self-serving individuals who make a grab at power and then enforce their will (for good or bad) on the rest of the populace with the help of those who enjoy flexing their muscles.

I've read some instances of anarchist theory that is more like idealized socialism than the absence of rule. The self-governance of the local community is kept to a minimum, and no over-arching government exists.

It's a very attractive idea, and I wrestled with it for a bit, before deciding I should relegate it to the realm of idealism.
 
I think that the argument seems more to be providing reasons for the implementation of actual communism (as described my Karl Marx) than for anarchy.
 

Novo

Member
Not at all. Karl believed in a single ruler, A marxist government(think cuba) is nothing at all like an anarchist society. I'll post a response to linwood in a little while, But I'm not on my home computer right now.

Peace and Love
-Novo
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Novo said:
Not at all. Karl believed in a single ruler, A marxist government(think cuba) is nothing at all like an anarchist society. I'll post a response to linwood in a little while, But I'm not on my home computer right now.

Peace and Love
-Novo

I think you read a different Marx than I did. The Marx I read theorized a period of dictatorship shortly before government itself whithered away and Communism came to be...
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Anarchy sounds like a great plan for some type of creature other than us.

Humans are social creatures and because of this there will be conflict until a power heirarchy is established, at which time the society will stabilize. This is part of our nature and we cannot get away from it.

It is like a pack of wolves, or many other social creatures. A heirarchy means stability. Anarchy goes against our nature.

I am not saying that humans are no better than wolves. Many humans do have the benevolence to get along in an anarchal society without combating others. However, as linwood pointed out, there is a large enough percent of the population that will be forcefully driven by greed, power, control, you name it, and will fight until they are subdued.
 

Novo

Member
In a anarchic society the wealth would be shared, Thus destroying a imporant motive in crimes as well as abolishing greed. A common misconception in my opinion, Is that society requires hierarchy. Far from this, A society based on control either subdues its members or encourages them to fight one another and claw there way to the top. Do a search on the city of christania, And the spanish laborers union (It was destroyed by francos soldiers, But then so were so many other nations)
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Novo said:
In a anarchic society the wealth would be shared, Thus destroying a imporant motive in crimes as well as abolishing greed. A common misconception in my opinion, Is that society requires hierarchy. Far from this, A society based on control either subdues its members or encourages them to fight one another and claw there way to the top. Do a search on the city of christania, And the spanish laborers union (It was destroyed by francos soldiers, But then so were so many other nations)

That, though, is simplistic. People also steal because they want more. An even redistribution of wealth will require two things. First, that all people have even or near-even finances. In that case, human greed and competition will come through. Most people, by their nature, want to have more than the other guy. An evenness in wealth will intensify this in those that find it irresistable.

They, in their turn, may commit crime (thus making it a reality still), but more likely, they are to find some other way to move up in the world. Human beings are social creatures and followers. If they succeed in gaining that status, they succeed in creating a hierarchy. Things grow from there, and we have full-fledged classes again. Unfortunately, this is also human behavior.

The second thing it forgets is related to the first. Humanity is a hierarchical animal. We can classify alpha males and alpha females any time we get a bunch of people together, even strangers. We form a natural hierarchy without even being asked. We do this on a local scale, and we also do it on a wider scale. Different towns, states, etc. have different reputations. We regard them differently. Something based in, say, New York will attract more people to follow it than something based in Dallas.

Since we are hierarchical creatures, it is a stretch to believe we could keep a community going for an extensive period of time without a hierarchy, especially with the crowding conditions we now have. One will form, and because it is running contrary to desires and expectations in such a situation, it has a strong chance of being very nasty.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Novo said:
In a anarchic society the wealth would be shared, Thus destroying a imporant motive in crimes as well as abolishing greed.
You may abolish private property, but you will not abolish greed. There will still be material desires and jealousies, and there will be those who are willing to subjugate others to control more of them. They will do this to make sure they get the best food, the best entertainment, and the best luxuries, and they will not want to share them with others. Some will do it simply because they enjoy controlling other people.

Novo said:
A common misconception in my opinion, Is that society requires hierarchy. Far from this, A society based on control either subdues its members or encourages them to fight one another and claw there way to the top.
Without any form of public authority, the brutish men who are willing to trample on others to gain domination will become the ones in control.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
TranceAm said:
(Don't take this personal!!!! Sad that I have to state this upfront.)
No worries TranceAm. If I am forceful with my opinion, you have every right to rebut it if you disagree with it! In fact, I encourage it ... it helps me grow. :)

TranceAm said:
TranceAm said:
count me in the "us" there..
Leave me the heck alone is right for starters. Keep your principles for your life is a nice second. We can work together for projects that benefit all, but don't force me into spending my lifetime for projects that I don't support is a nice third.
But can others give me that Freedom to descide for my life? As I am willing to give to them for their life?
I have trouble following your statements. To let you know where I come from, I support a free market society. The social freedoms, religious freedoms, and economic freedoms that I enjoy exceed those of more than 99% of people who have ever existed, and I am very thankful for it.

Governments have always been corrupt and they always will be. But they are necessary. Human societies will always be governed whether we like it or not.

TranceAm said:
Subdued??
They are the ones wrecking everything (And I mean everything!) for the others by their need to subdue others.
They will fight driven by their greed for power and control until they have exactly that "Power and Control".
How would you propose to get rid of people's desire for power and control?
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
TranceAm said:
No they aren't nessecary, far from, it is a self maintaining fable...
Do you notice the contradiction in "Free" and "Governed"?
Being "free" is not black and white. There are many types of freedoms and to varying degrees. So, no I do not see a contradiction between "free" and "governed".

TranceAm said:
When a "Free" people comes in contact with western type of society, ruled by basterds that want power and control and will kill/neutralize anyone/any tribe or just plainly commit genocide to whatever stands inbetween them and their needs.
Slowly the people that are conquered in this quest are convinced (Most times by the sword.), that being herded by some kind of elite is beneficiary to them (Especially if they want to stay alive.).
In the mean time, government is made mandatory, and so are the cost for that government to maintain its guardians for the safety of the population to guard it against its own "dumb" descisions. Education is started to show that government and especially the current type of government is the next best thing to the guilotine. And slowly it becomes inplemented/indoctrinated in a former free people that "government" is necessary.
Tribal societies still have governments, but they are much smaller than our governments. If the size of the society is small enough, it is possible to make any government nearly transparent. However, they generally still have tribal leaders and a heirarchial structure within the tribe. The needed size of the government has to do with the size of the society which it governs.

If a group of people are really not interested in the modern commerce and activities that exist in a large-scale society, there are many remote areas of the world they can retreat to and enjoy life without any interaction with a large governing authority.

TranceAm said:
I would say, global thermonuclear war combined with some fast and some slow lethal genetically enhanced viruses. Maybe the roaches/bacteria will make a new start given enough time and evolution.
I see. Kind of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete solution ... :)

TranceAm said:
I personally have given up on mankind that seems to be divided in 2 subspecies.. Slavekind and Beastkind. I personally dislike both.
C.S. Lewis has said there are three kinds of men. The two you describe are the wimps and the barbarians. The first is ruled by their head, the second by their stomach. The third kind are men who are ruled by their chests.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Novo said:
Anarchic societys exist and have existed.
Do a search engine crawl for the great city of christania
I checked it out online. Here are some excerpts.

Today, 34 years down the line, Christiana this Paradise for Losers has become a Free City with a population a thousand people. Many of them are third generation residents. Only some receive social security. Others find odd jobs to do in the city, or are self employed. Artists, musicians, tinkers and tailors, drug addicts and wastrels, they live in harmony. Housing is cheap, as shelters are built from waste material. Broken down trucks, tin sheds, tattered canvas, cardboard and paper are all put to good use. Each family builds its own shelter, which cannot be sold. The streets have no names and the houses no numbers. The residents are known by nicknames. They have their own restaurants, a theatre for plays and concerts, a circus, a kindergarten, a playground, poultry runs, and a cycle shop, where cycles are made from scrap, with boxes attached for transporting material. These utility cycles are in great demand in Copenhagen, and proudly display the name ‘Christiana’ on the sides.


Wow. I have no desire to live there. However, I recognize the benefit of having a district like that in a city for people who would enjoy that lifestyle.

There is no representative committee, and all residents attend meetings which tend to be long drawn out and chaotic. Even so, there is some mechanism by which discipline is enforced. While the sale of hashish is legalized in the area, cocaine and LSD are prohibited. Addicts who cause problems are sent away to detoxification centers. Each family pays 100 kroners a month into a common kitty, for water, electricity, and garbage disposal. With so much hashish available, one sees bleary-eyed residents in different stages of nirvana. Yet everything is peaceful, and visitors can walk around without fear of being molested. Photography however, is strictly prohibited.

Sounds like to me there is still a governing authority, as fractured as it is. Ultimately it is still governed by Denmark, as the residents still own Danish money and it is still illegal to use hard drugs (as hands off as the government might be).

As far as the peacefullness of the society, well, that can be attributed to the poverty. You will not find any bullies with appetites for money or power there because those things are no where to be seen in the city.

You cannot use this as an example for how society at large should be because it is from the contrast to what lies outside of christania that allows it to exist. People who have no desire to live there don't have to, and if they did, it would be a much different environment.

 

standing_on_one_foot

Well-Known Member
TranceAm said:
Well, isn't free making and being responsible for your own descisions, and being governed, that someone else is making descisions for you. (I could be wrong of course but that is kinda black and white to me.)
Unless of course less free is still free. But then again, noone hates freedom but a happy slave.
About the best you can have (if you want the benefits of living in a society, that is) is a compromise between total freedom and no freedom, leaning as far to the freedom side of things as possible. No freedom's bad, as being deprived of your rights never was a good thing, but total freedom means others have the freedom to, say, enslave you if they're powerful enough, and then you're right back to no freedom. You'll always find someone, sooner or later, who'll be strong enough or charismatic enough to get power, and then the only thing protecting you is human decency, and that's a horible thing to rely on. Am I totally free? No, of course not. Do I have a lot of freedoms? Yup. Am I a happy slave? Aw, heck, if it makes you feel better to call me that, go ahead. You're free to do so.
 

standing_on_one_foot

Well-Known Member
No, interestingly enough, I've been indoctrinated to believe that ever decreasing freedoms are a bad thing. I'm pretty well opposed to any changes I see as violating my Constitutional rights. I do believe that some freedom in exchange for the benefits of living in society are worth it (I am not free to murder people, nor are they free to murder me). I am happy with that. I'm happy to get a good education, I'm happy that I can practice my religion, I'm happy that I can sit here at my computer and argue this point with you. I'm not happy with everything, no. But things can be improved. They have, you know.
 
Top