Some Qs about the JW view of Jesus and angels

[Harel13]

Hello JWs,

Over the last few days, I've chanced upon a number of interesting quotes:

"Unquestionably there is only one Almighty God, even as the apostle Paul wrote: “For even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) The Lord Jesus Christ is no false god, no demon god, no mere idol. He ‘is the reflection of Jehovah God’s glory.’ (Hebrews 1:3) Thus it is fitting for John 1:1 to acknowledge Jesus as “a god,” or “godlike” (Johannes Schneider)." (Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)
​

And:

"Do Jehovah's Witnesses worship Two Gods? Absolutely not! They worship only Jehovah God and they pray only to Jehovah God (in the name of Jesus Christ). That is because they see the pre-mortal Jesus as a created being who is lower than Jehovah God, his Father. Also, they say before Jesus came to earth to be born of a woman he was known as Michael the Archangel and since his spirit returned to heaven, is still known as Michael the Archangel (What Doe the Bible Really Teach, Appendix page 218).

Obviously, it would be utterly wrong for anybody to worship a created angel (Revelation 19:10). Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jehovah is God (the only God to be worshipped) and Jesus is “a god” (who must not be worshipped)." (https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/67715)
​

Therefore, I was wondering:

1. If Jesus is an angel and is also defined as a 'god' - does that mean that all angels are 'gods'?
Is there any room to say that various pagan gods are also powerful beings in this sense (bad, good, whatever)?

Next, these were brought to my attention:

"The Scriptures also speak of Jesus Christ as a spirit. “The first man Adam became a living soul,” quotes Paul, contrasting him with the last Adam, Jesus, who “became a life-giving spirit” upon his resurrection, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” And since he now dwells in “unapproachable light,” and is also known as “The mighty God,” the term “spirit” is also fittingly applied to him.—1 Cor. 15:45; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Tim. 6:16, NW; Isa. 9:6.

11 Angels, both good and bad, are also termed “spirits.” Thus at Hebrews 1:7, 14 (NW) Paul states that God “makes his angels spirits,” and that angels are “all spirits for public service.” These good angels are both invisible and powerful, as the Bible repeatedly shows. (2 Ki. 6:16, 17; Isa. 37:36) Wicked angels are also referred to as spirits, Jesus often expelling these spirits “with a word,” from persons possessed by them. And Paul speaks of Satan as “the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” (Matt. 8:16; Eph. 2:2, NW) That these wicked spirits are also very powerful is apparent from Daniel 10:13, 20, where we are told that one of them was able to restrain one of God’s invisible messengers for twenty-one days." (The Holy Spirit—Third Person of Trinity or God’s Active Force? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)​

And:

"Thus, for sacrificial purposes according to God’s will, Jesus Christ was brought down to Sheol or Haʹdes, the common grave of the humans who lie dead in the dust of the ground. However, Almighty God did not let Sheol hold his faithful Son forever and thus let his flesh undergo a gradual decay in the memorial tomb. On the third day God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and thus fulfilled Psalm 16:10, as written by King David. The Christian apostle Paul quoted from Psalm 16:10 and said: “Hence he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption.’ For David, on the one hand, served the express will of God in his own generation and fell asleep in death and was laid with his forefathers and did see corruption. On the other hand, he whom God raised up did not see corruption.”—Acts 13:35-37.

4. Why will Jesus Christ be able to bring the death dealing Devil to nothing, and how will he do so?

4 Almighty God raised up Jesus Christ out of Sheol as an immortal spirit person, far mightier than Satan the Devil, “the one having the means to cause death.” In God’s due time the resurrected Jesus Christ will bring to nothing this death-dealing Devil. He will bind him and all his demon angels and imprison them in an abyss where they will not be able to interfere with the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ as God’s anointed King." (For Whom There Are Resurrection Hopes — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)
​

And:

"Where will people be resurrected? Some people are resurrected to life in heaven to rule as kings with Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:1; Revelation 5:9, 10) The Bible calls this “the first resurrection” and “the earlier resurrection,” both expressions implying that there is another resurrection to follow. (Revelation 20:6; Philippians 3:11) This later resurrection will be to life on earth, which the vast majority of those brought back to life will enjoy.—Psalm 37:29.

How are people resurrected? God grants Jesus the power to raise the dead. (John 11:25) Jesus will restore “all those in the memorial tombs” to life, each one with his unique identity, personality, and memories. (John 5:28, 29) Those resurrected to heaven receive a spirit body, while those resurrected to life on earth receive a healthy physical body, completely sound.—Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6; 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50. (https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-the-resurrection/)​

From this I gathered that: In order to reach heaven, a spirit needs a spirit body. To remain on earth, a spirit needs a physical body. If pre-mortal Jesus was an angel, i.e. a spiritual being in heaven that was injected into a human body, that means, presumably (correct me if I'm wrong), that when he died, his spirit should have returned to heaven automatically as the archangel Michael while his body stayed behind. Yet JW teachings are that god didn't leave Jesus' body to rot, so he resurrected him.

Which means: a. that a heavenly spirit (Jesus/Michael) that is meant to dwell in heaven and is defined by that fact that it/he already has a spirit-body, received a renewed physical body. b. that a pre-mortal spirit-being didn't, in fact, return automatically to heaven post-mortal-life, and needed further divine assistance.

2. If Jesus went to heaven as a spirit-being (that same being that had already existed in heaven previously), why would he need his physical body?
If he didn't have his physical body, does that mean his body did, in fact, rot into the earth?
If he did have his physical body, does that mean he had two bodies simultaneously? How does that work exactly? Does he exist in two places at the same time?

3. If pre-mortal Jesus was a being who lived well enough in heaven, then was injected into human form, then I would surmise that upon the death of the body, that same pre-mortal being (who is now post mortal) would simply automatically go to heaven (as I wrote above). Why then, the need for godly intervention?

 

[danieldemol]

@Harel13 Well spotted

I can’t wait to see whether JWs have a good answer or whether they just engage in more mental gymnastics.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 Well spotted

I had some help with this, but I think that person prefers to remain anonymous at the moment.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I had some help with this, but I think that person prefers to remain anonymous at the moment.

Wasn't me! Just in case I get into trouble!

But as an ex-JW this was my thinking on the matter and what i read in "Insight into the Scriptures"

Jesus is a god in terms of relative power as he is the most second most powerful being in the universe. Satan is a god because he controls the world at present. Our bellies can be our god because of the power it has over us if we give into greed. The term god is a relative term so none of them are literal gods. The literal God is Jehovah. We use the bibles use of god in the relative sense in common language in reference to someone being a "god amongst men" or the "artistic god" to show how superior they are to others in a certain way.

Regarding spiritual bodies:

JW's believe that spiritual beings can materialise in physical form.

Jesus was a perfect man therefore his body was perfect. He would have lived forever if he wasn't killed. So when he died, he was raised from the dead and his physical body became a spirit, as JW's believe that he was raised spiritually. So his spiritual body and physical body are the same thing because the spirit and body aren't necessarily separate for spirit beings, which is why it disappeared and he ascended.

Unlike perfect Jesus, sinful humans have to have new bodies because their bodies now are corrupted and they die. So both the physical body and spiritual body has to be made new and the old body has to be discarded.

With regards to the Archangel spirit being injected into human form:

As I said, the spirit and body aren't separate in JW theology. They believe that when a person dies then they die, no spirit survives. What God does is that he remembers the existence of the person and recreates that in resurrected form. So since spirits are just bodies in spirit form, when the Archangel spirit became Jesus, the spirit actually became physical, like a transmutation from metaphysical to material, thus the body became capable of dying. So when Jesus got killed, he really died, there was no spirit separate from the body to ascend back to heaven.

If you want to really know what JW's believe in depth, you must not study their regular publications or questions from readers, because they give extremely basic answers. You must read their "Insight into the Scriptures" encyclopedia which is extremely comprehensive and well referenced and technical. You should read related topics like "ressurection", "Spirit", "Jesus", "Angels" etc.

Also remember that the way you use a word is not necessarily how they use it. Spirit to you is not what they believe a spirit to be.

i might be sketchy on remembering this topic but I doubt it. I stand to correction by JW's.

 

[Harel13]

But as an ex-JW this was my thinking on the matter and what i read in "Insight into the Scriptures

You're an ex-JW? Man, I should've just gone straight to you...

 

[Harel13]

Jesus is a god in terms of relative power as he is the most second most powerful being in the universe. Satan is a god because he controls the world at present. Our bellies can be our god because of the power it has over us if we give into greed. The term god is a relative term so none of them are literal gods. The literal God is Jehovah. We use the bibles use of god in the relative sense in common language in reference to someone being a "god amongst men" or the "artistic god" to show how superior they are to others in a certain way.

Very, very interesting. So any sort of concept, even an abstract one, that holds sway over us, can be referred to as a 'god'? So in this sense, for example, if x does y because Zeus seemingly wants y done, then Zeus has sway over x and in some sense, is, in fact, a god?

So when Jesus got killed, he really died, there was no spirit separate from the body to ascend back to heaven.

What God does is that he remembers the existence of the person and recreates that in resurrected form.

This kind of reminds me of what has always bugged me about how cloning is usually presented in fiction - say an evil person wants some form of immortality, so he clones himself. That clone, however, at least to anyone who believes in souls, may be that same evil person down to the DNA, but is still not that person - because they have a different soul.
It sounds as though the reborn Jesus - and anyone else who may be resurrected, aren't inherently those same people that they are based on. Say x dies. The being that is resurrected isn't x but actually x2 - a separate individual.

 

[Deeje]

You're an ex-JW? Man, I should've just gone straight to you...

Well, there’s a problem right there.....why go to an “ex” to find out about someone or something that they abandoned? Have you ever been on the receiving end of an “ex’s” opinion of you?

There are two sides to every story, so a verdict should be reserved until both sides are heard......no?

The reason for your questions must also be taken into consideration.....if your motive is to gain information, then fair enough....but if the motive is to gain ammunition for future ridicule, then what is the point? Every answer will be skewed to imply what was never said.

With that taken into consideration, I will review your questions as one who chose to become a JW 48 years ago. OK?

 

[Vouthon]

@Harel13 I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, so I await with great interest replies to your questions from our JW posters, such as @Deeje.

Nonetheless, since you raised the topic of this doctrine adhered to by our JW friends and opened it up for general debate - namely, that Jesus is to be thought of as the incarnation of the archangel Michael as opposed to the Second Person of the Triune God (JWs are, of course, non-Trinitarian Christians) - I thought it might be worthwhile tracing the origins of the concept, while we wait for the JWs to enter the fray.

The belief that Christ is an "archangel" is attested by the early church father Epiphanius in the fourth century, who attributed it to a sect among the Ebionite branch of early Christianity: one of two strains in the early church (the other being the Nazarenes) that were known to be Torah-observant and majority Jewish in extraction.

Ebionites used a significantly amended version of the Gospel of Matthew (in addition to the Tanakh) and apparently had none of the other New Testament books in their 'canon'. They are described by one scholar of antiquity, as having been "Hebrew/Aramiac speaking Ebionites who shared James the Just’s positive attitude toward the temple, used only Matthew’s Gospel and accepted all the prophets". We also know that they rejected the Virgin Birth, believing in the purely human origins of Jesus from the sexual union of his father Joseph and mother Mary (unlike JWs).

One of the 'Ebionite' sects are described as follows:

They do not say that he was born of God the Father, but that he was created as one of the archangels, that he rules both the angels and all those things created by the Almighty.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.16.4-5
​

However, unlike modern JWs these Ebionites actually held that Jesus himself was neither an archangel nor God (as the Trinitarian Catholics taught) but rather a mere man elevated by God and infused at his baptism with the spirit of an archangel:

For since they wish Jesus to be in reality a man, as I have said before, Christ came in him having descended in the form of a dove and was joined to him (as already we have found among other heresies also), and became the Christ from God above, but Jesus was born from the seed of man and woman.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.14.4-5​

Another group of Ebionites - who seem to have occupied the mainstream of the movement - preached an entirely human Jesus Christ (as a unitary person) without any reference to this angelic doctrine and they, moreover, denied his pre-existence in any form. From some of the early Fathers of the second - third centuries:

The Ebionaeans, however, acknowledge that the world was made by Him Who is in reality God, but they propound legends concerning the Christ similarly with Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They live conformably to the customs of the Jews, alleging that they are justified. according to the law, and saying that Jesus was justified by fulfilling the law. And therefore it was, (according to the Ebionaeans,) that (the Saviour) was named (the) Christ of God and Jesus, since not one of the rest (of mankind) had observed completely the law. For if even any other had fulfilled the commandments (contained) in the law, he would have been that Christ. And the (Ebionaeans allege) that they themselves also, when in like manner they fulfil (the law), are able to become Christs; for they assert that our Lord Himself was a man in a like sense with all (the rest of the human family).

— Hippolytus of Rome, Refutation of All Heresies 7.22

The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ. For they considered him a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of a man with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the ceremonial law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone and by a corresponding life. There were others, however, besides them, that were of the same name, but avoided the strange and absurd beliefs of the former, and did not deny that the Lord was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit. But nevertheless, inasmuch as they also refused to acknowledge that he pre-existed, being God, Word, and Wisdom, they turned aside into the impiety of the former, especially when they, like them, endeavored to observe strictly the bodily worship of the law. These men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle, whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest. The Sabbath and the rest of the discipline of the Jews they observed just like them, but at the same time, like us, they celebrated the Lord’s days as a memorial of the resurrection of the Saviour. Wherefore, in consequence of such a course they received the name of Ebionites, which signified the poverty of their understanding. For this is the name by which a poor man is called among the Hebrews.

— Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Chp. 27​

As to these translators it should be stated that Symmachus was an Ebionite. But the heresy of the Ebionites, as it is called, asserts that Christ was the son of Joseph and Mary, considering him a mere man, and insists strongly on keeping the law in a Jewish manner

(Nicene Fathers, The Translator Symmachus, Chp. 17)

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

— Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.26.2​

God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. But not as some allege, among those now presuming to expound the Scripture, [thus:] "Behold, a young woman shall conceive, and bring forth a son," Isaiah 7:14 as Theodotion the Ephesian has interpreted, and Aquila of Pontus, both Jewish proselytes. The Ebionites, following these, assert that He was begotten by Joseph; thus destroying, as far as in them lies, such a marvellous dispensation of God, and setting aside the testimony of the prophets which proceeded from God.​

Adversus Haereses (Book V, Chapter 1)

​

The Jehovah's Witnesses are, thus, a bit similar to the 'angelogical' Ebionites - a form of Christianity which does have an ancient pedigree in Christian theological speculation.

My personal theory is that this 'angelic' Christology (a form of Arianism, really, which carefully differentiated non-divinised Jesus from the one God, Yahweh) developed in the first instance amongst Jewish Christians as a means of exalting Jesus as Messiah - and giving him a semi-divine status - but without equating him in some sense with 'God', in a way that would dilute Judaic unitarian monotheism, as St. Paul seemed to do in his letter to the Philippians:

though he [Jesus] was in the form of God,
he did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.

(Philippians 2:6-11)
​

And in Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 8:6

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

​

(The above statement is not thought by scholars to have been invented by Paul, rather they believe he was referencing an already well-known creed of the primitive church, which tells us that early Christians had already come to regard Jesus as a pre-existent divine agent of creation co-eternal with God, here incorporating him into the shema.)

 

[Harel13]

Have you ever been on the receiving end of an “ex’s” opinion of you?

Yes, in fact. Just today there was something like that. I meant no disrespect - the opposite. I find @Israel Khan to be an agreeable RFer, which, unfortunately, cannot be said about all RFers. So if he has some knowledge about JW teachings, I guess I could have just headed over to him, without being on the receiving end of some of the drama that goes on here on occasion.

but if the motive is to gain ammunition for future ridicule, then what is the point? Every answer will be skewed to imply what was never said.

Man. I should've thought to ask that before we had those JW/Judaism threads awhile back.

But no. In this case, I'm interested in the information.

With that taken into consideration, I will review your questions as one who chose to become a JW 48 years ago. OK?

You don't have to answer if you don't want. That's perfectly okay and reasonable too.

 

[Terry Sampson]

The being that is resurrected isn't x but actually x2 - a separate individual.

But in JW's version of resurrection, x2 is a very good clone, because it's done by the Master Cloner.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, so I await with great interest replies to your questions from our JW posters, such as @Deeje.

Nonetheless, since you raised the topic of this doctrine adhered to by our JW friends and opened it up for general debate - namely, that Jesus is to be thought of as the incarnation of the archangel Michael as opposed to the Second Person of the Triune God (JWs are, of course, non-Trinitarian Christians) - I thought it might be worthwhile tracing the origins of the concept, while we wait for the JWs to enter the fray.

The belief that Christ is an "archangel" is attested by the early church father Epiphanius in the fourth century, who attributed it to a sect among the Ebionite branch of early Christianity: one of two strains in the early church (the other being the Nazarenes) that were known to be Torah-observant and majority Jewish in extraction.

Ebionites used a significantly amended version of the Gospel of Matthew (in addition to the Tanakh) and apparently had none of the other New Testament books in their 'canon'. They are described by one scholar of abtiquity, as having been "Hebrew/Aramiac speaking Ebionites who shared James the Just’s positive attitude toward the temple, used only Matthew’s Gospel and accepted all the prophets". We also know that they rejected the Virgin Birth, believing in the purely human origins of Jesus from the sexual union of his father Joseph and mother Mary (unlike JWs).

One of the 'Ebionite' sects are described as follows:

They do not say that he was born of God the Father, but that he was created as one of the archangels, that he rules both the angels and all those things created by the Almighty.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.16.4-5
​

However, unlike modern JWs these Ebionites actually held that Jesus himself was neither an archangel nor God (as the Trinitarian Catholics taught) but rather a mere man elevated by God and infused at his baptism with the spirit of an archangel:

For since they wish Jesus to be in reality a man, as I have said before, Christ came in him having descended in the form of a dove and was joined to him (as already we have found among other heresies also), and became the Christ from God above, but Jesus was born from the seed of man and woman.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.14.4-5​

Another group of Ebionites - who seem to have occupied the mainstream of the movement - preached an entirely human Jesus Christ (as a unitary person) without any reference to this angelic doctrine and they, moreover, denied his pre-existence in any form. From some of the early Fathers of the second - third centuries:

The Ebionaeans, however, acknowledge that the world was made by Him Who is in reality God, but they propound legends concerning the Christ similarly with Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They live conformably to the customs of the Jews, alleging that they are justified. according to the law, and saying that Jesus was justified by fulfilling the law. And therefore it was, (according to the Ebionaeans,) that (the Saviour) was named (the) Christ of God and Jesus, since not one of the rest (of mankind) had observed completely the law. For if even any other had fulfilled the commandments (contained) in the law, he would have been that Christ. And the (Ebionaeans allege) that they themselves also, when in like manner they fulfil (the law), are able to become Christs; for they assert that our Lord Himself was a man in a like sense with all (the rest of the human family).

— Hippolytus of Rome, Refutation of All Heresies 7.22

The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ. For they considered him a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of a man with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the ceremonial law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone and by a corresponding life. There were others, however, besides them, that were of the same name, but avoided the strange and absurd beliefs of the former, and did not deny that the Lord was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit. But nevertheless, inasmuch as they also refused to acknowledge that he pre-existed, being God, Word, and Wisdom, they turned aside into the impiety of the former, especially when they, like them, endeavored to observe strictly the bodily worship of the law. These men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle, whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest. The Sabbath and the rest of the discipline of the Jews they observed just like them, but at the same time, like us, they celebrated the Lord’s days as a memorial of the resurrection of the Saviour. Wherefore, in consequence of such a course they received the name of Ebionites, which signified the poverty of their understanding. For this is the name by which a poor man is called among the Hebrews.

— Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Chp. 27​

As to these translators it should be stated that Symmachus was an Ebionite. But the heresy of the Ebionites, as it is called, asserts that Christ was the son of Joseph and Mary, considering him a mere man, and insists strongly on keeping the law in a Jewish manner

(Nicene Fathers, The Translator Symmachus, Chp. 17)

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

— Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.26.2​

God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. But not as some allege, among those now presuming to expound the Scripture, [thus:] "Behold, a young woman shall conceive, and bring forth a son," Isaiah 7:14 as Theodotion the Ephesian has interpreted, and Aquila of Pontus, both Jewish proselytes. The Ebionites, following these, assert that He was begotten by Joseph; thus destroying, as far as in them lies, such a marvellous dispensation of God, and setting aside the testimony of the prophets which proceeded from God.​

Adversus Haereses (Book V, Chapter 1)

​

The Jehovah's Witnesses are, thus, a bit similar to the 'angelogical' Ebionites - a form of Christianity which does have an ancient pedigree in Christian theological speculation.

My personal theory is that this 'angelic' Christology (a form of Arianism, really, which carefully differentiated non-divinised Jesus from the one God, Yahweh) developed in the first instance amongst Jewish Christians as a means of exalting Jesus as Messiah - and giving him a semi-divine status - but without equating him in some sense with 'God', in a way that would dilute Judaic unitarian monotheism, as St. Paul seemed to do in his letter to the Philippians:

though he [Jesus] was in the form of God,
he did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.

(Philippians 2:6-11)
​

And in Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 8:6

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

​

(The above statement is not thought by scholars to have been invented by Paul, rather they believe he was referencing an already well-known creed of the primitive church, which tells us that early Christians had already come to regard Jesus as a pre-existent divine agent of creation co-eternal with God, here incorporating him into the shema.)

We can always count on you for all the awesome background historical information, @Vouthon.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Harel13 :

For what it's worth, I think it extremely unfortunate that your post was not directed to "JW only ..."

 

[Harel13]

But in JW's version of resurrection, x2 is a very good clone, because it's done by the Master Cloner.

Still isn't the same exact person, to my understanding.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 :

For what it's worth, I think it extremely unfortunate that your post was not directed to "JW only ..."

Good point. I'll remember that for next time. Thanks.

 

[Eyes to See]

Jesus himself had this conversation with the religious leaders of his day. For they wanted to murder him for blasphemy because he called himself the son of God. And he even told them that before Abraham lived he was alive.

Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”  Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.-John 8:57-59.

The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”  Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?-John 10:33-36.

That scripture Jesus quoted them is from Psalm 82:1:

“I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

Verse 6:

God takes his place in the divine assembly;
In the middle of the gods he judges.

In the Psalm Jehovah was talking to the elder men of Israel that had the responsibility of judging the people. God designated them the title "gods" or "godlike ones" in the fact that they acted as God's representatives in judging cases and holding power.

So even Jehovah God himself recognizes that there are other god-like beings, or "gods." In the Psalm he called human judges gods. Certainly, in comparison to humans angels certainly can be looked at as gods in the sense that they are higher than us. It would not be improper from this standpoint to consider the firstborn of all creation a god, or godlike one. If you think about it, we could be considered gods, or god-like to our pets. We provide for them, give them food and water, and they don't do anything to help furnish it, for the most part.

When Jehovah sent Moses to Pharaoh Moses did not want to speak. So Jehovah said that he would send Aaron, Moses' older brother as his spokesman. And that Moses would be god, and Aaron would take the place of Moses in speaking to Pharaoh:


He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.-Exodus 4:16.

God is a title and while there is only one Almighty God who created all things, even in the Hebrew the title god, just as lord could be designated to others that act in the position of god or given authority from God to act on his behalf.

In fact now that I think of it, even the three angels that appeared to Abraham were referred to as God Jehovah. As were other angels at certain times in the Bible.


When the apostle John called Jesus "a god" or "a godlike one" he was not wrong in so doing. But he was not elevating Jesus to the status of Jehovah God. In fact in the very same chapter John stated that Jesus was "a god" he also stated that no man has ever seen God:

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.-John 1:18.

There in John 1:18 John clearly states that no one has ever seen God, but then he says that Jesus, the "only-begotten god" has explained him to us.

Jesus is the only-begotten because he was the first and only direct creation by Jehovah God. By means of Jesus Jehovah created all other things. So that no matter what it is, the things invisible and the things visible all things were created through Jesus, the only-begotten and for Jesus:

That is what scripture says here:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.-Colossians 1:15-16.


----

When Jesus came to earth from the spirit realm where he existed before the universe at Jehovah's side he did not descend as an angel, and did not materialize a human body. The scripture states that Jesus was transferred from God's side and put inside the womb of Mary and was born a human child. That is he was no longer a spirit. God transferred the life of Jesus miraculously to the womb of Mary and he was born a human child and grew up as a human. And when he died he ceased to exist. Just as what happens to all other humans when they die. After parts of three days he was resurrected in a heavenly spirit body in which he was able to return to heaven to Jehovah's side. After Jesus' resurrection when he appeared as a human to his disciples this is when he materialized a human body. This would explain how he was able to appear before them in a locked room on different occasion and was able to appear to them in a form they did not recognize.

When Jesus was dead sometime during those parts of three days God dematerialized his dead human body. He did not allow it to see decay.

You cannot simply just go to heaven because you die. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus. First you must be "born again" or "born from above."

Jesus did not have free access to heaven after he was born a human until he presented himself to do God's will and was baptized with water and holy spirit. That baptism made way for him to return to heaven. Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again. No one will go to heaven unless they are born again from the holy spirit. That is they are adopted as sons of God and justified on the basis of Jesus' shed ransom. All humans that go to heaven have to die. They need to be transformed just as Jesus was, this is the new creation. When they die at God's time they will be raised in incorruptible and immortal spirit bodies in the imagine of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.

Before Jesus was raised to heaven there was only one person that possessed immortality. That was Jehovah God. That gift was granted Jesus after he died faithfully. All the anointed chosen and faithful that remain so down to the end also partake of divine nature and will go to heaven in spirit bodies far higher than the angels or the Devil. In that respect you can also say that they will be gods, or godlike ones.

The quality of their life is indesctrubible. They will never decay, they are able to live from within themselves unlike the other angels. It appears that this quality of life they possess in the from of God is also too powerful for humans to look upon. For it is said that Jesus Christ is too bright for a human to look at directly:

Scripture explains the nature of Jesus this way:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.-1 Timothy 6:14-16.

Jesus was the only one gifted immortality. But when the anointed Christian congregation is raised to heavenly spirit life they also put on immortality and will be like Jehovah God and Jesus Christ:

For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”-1 Corinthians 15:53-55.


Those of us who have been called and chosen to reign in heaven right now cannot see Jehovah God or Jesus Christ just as they are, as they are spirits, and are too brilliant for our eyes to look upon. Jehovah told Moses that no one could look upon his face and live. But when we die and we are given the immortal spirit bodies then we will see him, that is God into his eyes, and we will see him and know him just as he is. For just as we bare the physical, then we will bare the spiritual. And just as he is we will be:

For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.-1 Corinthians 13:12.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Still isn't the same exact person, to my understanding.

I agree, but it makes for intriguing speculation regarding how it is that "the unique identity, personality, and memories" of X can be uploaded/downloaded/transferred or duplicated in X2, don'tcha think?

 

[Harel13]

I agree, but it makes for intriguing speculation regarding how it is that "the unique identity, personality, and memories" of X can be uploaded/downloaded/transferred or duplicated in X2, don'tcha think?

Actually, that's not a shocker to me. I mean, come on, this is god we're talking about. He can do anything.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus himself had this conversation with the religious leaders of his day. For they wanted to murder him for blasphemy because he called himself the son of God. And he even told them that before Abraham lived he was alive.

Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”  Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.-John 8:57-59.

The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”  Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?-John 10:33-36.

That scripture Jesus quoted them is from Psalm 82:1:

“I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

Verse 6:

God takes his place in the divine assembly;
In the middle of the gods he judges.

In the Psalm Jehovah was talking to the elder men of Israel that had the responsibility of judging the people. God designated them the title "gods" or "godlike ones" in the fact that they acted as God's representatives in judging cases and holding power.

So even Jehovah God himself recognizes that there are other god-like beings, or "gods." In the Psalm he called human judges gods. Certainly, in comparison to humans angels certainly can be looked at as gods in the sense that they are higher than us. It would not be improper from this standpoint to consider the firstborn of all creation a god, or godlike one. If you think about it, we could be considered gods, or god-like to our pets. We provide for them, give them food and water, and they don't do anything to help furnish it, for the most part.

When Jehovah sent Moses to Pharaoh Moses did not want to speak. So Moses said that he would send Aaron, Moses' older brother as his spokesman. And that Moses would be god, and Aaron would take the place of Moses in speaking to Pharaoh:


He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.-Exodus 4:16.

God is a title and while there is only one Almighty God who created all things, even in the Hebrew the title god, just as lord could be designated to others that act in the position of god or given authority from God to act on his behalf.

In fact now that I think of it, even the three angels that appeared to Abraham were referred to as God Jehovah. As were other angels at certain times in the Bible.


When the apostle John called Jesus "a god" or "a godlike one" he was not wrong in so doing. But he was not elevating Jesus to the status of Jehovah God. In fact in the very same chapter John stated that Jesus was "a god" he also stated that no man has ever seen God:

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.-John 1:18.

There in John 1:18 John clearly states that no one has ever seen God, but then he says that Jesus, the "only-begotten god" has explained him to us.

Jesus is the only-begotten because he was the first and only direct creation by Jehovah God. By means of Jesus Jehovah created all other things. So that no matter what it is, the things invisible and the things visible all things were created through Jesus, the only-begotten and for Jesus:

That is what scripture says here:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.-Colossians 1:15-16.


----

When Jesus came to earth from the spirit realm where he existed before the universe at Jehovah's side he did not descend as an angel, and did not materialize a human body. The scripture states that Jesus was transferred from God's side and put inside the womb of Mary and was born a human child. That is he was no longer a spirit. God transferred the life of Jesus miraculously to the womb of Mary and he was born a human child and grew up as a human. And when he died he ceased to exist. Just as what happens to all other humans when they die. After parts of three days he was resurrected in a heavenly spirit body in which he was able to return to heaven to Jehovah's side. After Jesus' resurrection when he appeared as a human to his disciples this is when he materialized a human body. This would explain how he was able to appear before them in a locked room on different occasion and was able to appear to them in a form they did not recognize.

When Jesus was dead sometime during those parts of three days God dematerialized his dead human body. He did not allow it to see decay.

You cannot simply just go to heaven because you die. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus. First you must be "born again" or "born from above."

Jesus did not have free access to heaven after he was born a human until he presented himself to do God's will and was baptized with water and holy spirit. That baptism made way for him to return to heaven. Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again. No one will go to heaven unless they are born again from the holy spirit. That is they are adopted as sons of God and justified on the basis of Jesus' shed ransom. All humans that go to heaven have to die. They need to be transformed just as Jesus was, this is the new creation. When they die at God's time they will be raised in incorruptible and immortal spirit bodies in the imagine of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.

Before Jesus was raised to heaven there was only one person that possessed immortality. That was Jehovah God. That gift was granted Jesus after he died faithfully. All the anointed chosen and faithful that remain so down to the end also partake of divine nature and will go to heaven in spirit bodies far higher than the angels or the Devil. In that respect you can also say that they will be gods, or godlike ones.

The quality of their life is indesctrubible. They will never decay, they are able to live from within themselves unlike the other angels. It appears that this quality of life they possess in the from of God is also too powerful for humans to look upon. For it is said that Jesus Christ is too bright for a human to look at directly:

Scripture explains the nature of Jesus this way:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.-1 Timothy 6:14-16.

Jesus was the only one gifted immortality. But when the anointed Christian congregation is raised to heavenly spirit life they also put on immortality and will be like Jehovah God and Jesus Christ:

For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”-1 Corinthians 15:53-55.


Those of us who have been called and chosen to reign in heaven right now cannot see Jehovah God or Jesus Christ just as they are, as they are spirits, and are too brilliant for our eyes to look upon. Jehovah told Moses that no one could look upon his face and live. But when we die and we are given the immortal spirit bodies then we will see him, that is God into his eyes, and we will see him and know him just as he is. For just as we bare the physical, then we will bare the spiritual. And just as he is we will be:

For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.-1 Corinthians 13:12.

Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.

If I understand you correctly, then is my argument correct that no resurrected person is really, inherently, the same person that they're based off of, for that person died - meaning, was wiped from existence, and this new person is just that - a new person, containing a backup file of the first person's memories, personality, etc?

 

[Eyes to See]

Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.

If I understand you correctly, then is my argument correct that no resurrected person is really, inherently, the same person that they're based off of, for that person died - meaning, was wiped from existence, and this new person is just that - a new person, containing a backup file of the first person's memories, personality, etc?

According to that reasoning we are all new people every 7 years or so. For the human body is constantly replacing itself. Nothing of you that was you physically still exists from when you were a child. The same is true in the resurrection. Either to life on earth or to life in heaven.

Those resurrected to life on earth in the future will have the same memories and personalities, they will be the same people, but in new perfect bodies.

I've pondered about what it will be like to be resurrected to heavenly spirit life. Not only will one retain the language they have, or languages, and thoughts, and experiences and personality from before. They are also given a new spirit body. And just as all creatures have basic instincts and functions built into their bodies, even the animals, certainly the angels, and the anointed have basic instincts built into their spirit bodies that humans cannot understand. No doubt they will be raised with an understanding of the heavenly tongue Jehovah God speaks in. Just as God created Adam with the ability to speak and with language already programmed so those of us who are raised to heaven will no doubt have the language of the angels programmed in us. We won't have to learn it, we will automatically know how to speak it.

They travel in ways we cannot comprehend as the fundamental laws of our universe do not apply to them, they can travel vast distances very quickly. They can see and hear in ways humans have no comprehension. All of these things will be an innate part of a spiritual creature. Will we who have been called to heaven have to learn those functions or will they come as second nature?

 

[Terry Sampson]

I mean, come on, this is god we're talking about. He can do anything.

Neat! An Orthodox Jew who thinks Jesus' incarnation could be true.