Some Qs about the JW view of Jesus and angels

[Harel13]

Neat! An Orthodox Jew who thinks Jesus' incarnation could be true.

Oh brother.

 

[Harel13]

According to that reasoning we are all new people every 7 years or so. For the human body is constantly replacing itself. Nothing of you that was you physically still exists from when you were a child. The same is true in the resurrection. Either to life on earth or to life in heaven.

Interesting point.
Because the body and the spirit are one in the JW view?

 

[Deeje]

As my brother has already addressed your questions, I hope my answers can add to the discussion....

1. If Jesus is an angel and is also defined as a 'god' - does that mean that all angels are 'gods'?

Since Jesus used this term to refer to human judges in Israel who had divine authority, there seems to be a problem with our understanding of the word “god” in English.

Is there any room to say that various pagan gods are also powerful beings in this sense (bad, good, whatever)?

Yes, the same word is used to describe foreign “gods” as well as satan.

Since the Biblical definition of a “god” has to be understood according to the language used, referring to Jesus as “a god” (small “g”) has to be in line with the meaning of the Greek word “theos”.

This word in Greek means “a mighty one” and as the Greeks were polytheistic, they had no word for the monotheistic God of the Jews. All their gods had names and were individually addressed by their names, but they were just collectively known as “the gods”.
Since the Jews had stopped using the divine name, there was only one way to refer to this nameless God in a way that differentiated him from all others. That was to use the definite article “the” (ho).

In English we use the same terminology to identify someone famous from someone who has the same name but is not the person we are referring to. e.g. if someone was going to a gathering and saw “Brad Pitt” on the guest list, they might ask “is that THE Brad Pitt?”

So using the most obvious verse where there is inference that Jesus is God, we find an interesting difference in the English translation of the Greek in John 1:1.

From an interlinear we see that the definite article (ho) is used with reference to God but not in reference to Jesus.
It reads “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God, and the Word was god.” So two divine beings are mentioned in this verse but only one is “THE God”.

From this I gathered that: In order to reach heaven, a spirit needs a spirit body. To remain on earth, a spirit needs a physical body. If pre-mortal Jesus was an angel, i.e. a spiritual being in heaven that was injected into a human body, that means, presumably (correct me if I'm wrong), that when he died, his spirit should have returned to heaven automatically as the archangel Michael while his body stayed behind. Yet JW teachings are that god didn't leave Jesus' body to rot, so he resurrected him.

This implies belief in a conscious, separate part of humans that is believed to depart from the body at death. The Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul or spirit. Humans are material beings who were designed to live on earth. The fact that we have a spiritual aspect to our nature just means that we have a unique capacity in our makeup that needs to worship (unlike the animals).....our consciousness naturally gravitates to both material and spiritual concepts.

So there is no spirit that goes to heaven at death. All humans are in their graves awaiting the promised resurrection. Even Job spoke of this.

Jesus was the first human to experience a resurrection “in the spirit”. No one went to heaven before he did. And after him, no one was to go to heaven until his return.

A prophesy concerning Jesus body not being left to decay in his tomb was fulfilled by his resurrection. No body was in the tomb. Jesus did not resurrect himself.....he was literally dead until his Father restored his life.

Which means: a. that a heavenly spirit (Jesus/Michael) that is meant to dwell in heaven and is defined by that fact that it/he already has a spirit-body, received a renewed physical body. b. that a pre-mortal spirit-being didn't, in fact, return automatically to heaven post-mortal-life, and needed further divine assistance.

Jesus had his lifeforce transferred to the womb of a Jewish “maiden” as it was prophesied. Jesus had to be born as a human to offer his perfect, sinless body to atone for the perfect sinless life that was stolen from all of us by our forefather, Adam. As indicated by the blood sacrifices in Israel, blood atones for sin.

Jesus has many roles and a different name in each one....he was a spirit being before his human birth, (Michael) carried out his mission successfully by redeeming the human race with his blood, and returned to heaven to his God and Father after completing his assignment. He did not have to be God to offer his life on our behalf....he just needed to be sinless, so he could not have been a sinful son of Adam....he had to be a perfect son of God.

2. If Jesus went to heaven as a spirit-being (that same being that had already existed in heaven previously), why would he need his physical body?
If he didn't have his physical body, does that mean his body did, in fact, rot into the earth?
If he did have his physical body, does that mean he had two bodies simultaneously? How does that work exactly? Does he exist in two places at the same time?

There is a great deal of confusion surrounding this question because Jesus was seen in the flesh after his resurrection. Jesus was raised as a spirit, but as the Bible indicates, spirits can manifest in fleshly bodies. Angels visited Abraham and Lot in physical bodies. It has to be noted that nowhere in the Christian scriptures is Jesus said to dwell with his apostles after his death and resurrection, as he had done for the previous three and a half years. It says that he “appeared” to them....they found him standing among them in a locked room......and on one occasion, he “disappeared” before their eyes after breaking bread when they recognised him. Many times he spoke with his disciples and they did not recognise him.

The Bible answers all these questions but false beliefs that have crept into both Judaism and Christianity have skewed the truth, but Jesus said to expect this....humans being what humans are.

 

[Eyes to See]

Interesting point.
Because the body and the spirit are one in the JW view?

It took me a minute to understand your statement.

The Bible states that a soul is a living being of flesh and the breath of life.

A spirit, such as God Jehovah, or an angel is not a soul. They are spirits, that is invisible living beings that reside in the invisible spirit realm.

Souls are living beings that live on the physical plane and have flesh and need breath to live.

And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person (the word here translated person is nephish which can also be translated soul).-Genesis 2:7.

The Bible teaches that a living human is a soul. And that soul when it sins it will die. And death is cessation of existence.

The soul who sins is the one who will die.-Ezekiel 18:4.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all.-Ecclesiastes 9:5.

The spirit that returns to Jehovah when a person dies is all that he is all of his memories, everything that makes that person who he was while alive. If God did not have that memory with him he could not resurrect a person from death.

Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.-Ecclesiastes 12:7.

 

[Harel13]

Thanks for replying.

Since the Jews had stopped using the divine name

This again? Thought we've been over this. Old habits die hard, I guess.

The Bible answers all these questions but false beliefs that have crept into both Judaism and Christianity have skewed the truth

And again, but sure. Point fingers.

There is a great deal of confusion surrounding this question because Jesus was seen in the flesh after his resurrection. Jesus was raised as a spirit, but as the Bible indicates, spirits can manifest in fleshly bodies. Angels visited Abraham and Lot in physical bodies. It has to be noted that nowhere in the Christian scriptures is Jesus said to dwell with his apostles after his death and resurrection, as he had done for the previous three and a half years. It says that he “appeared” to them....they found him standing among them in a locked room......and on one occasion, he “disappeared” before their eyes after breaking bread when they recognised him. Many times he spoke with his disciples and they did not recognise him.

In conclusion, yes, his body did rot in the ground, is that it?

 

[Harel13]

It took me a minute to understand your statement.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. This is new territory for me.

A spirit, such as God Jehovah, or an angel is not a soul. They are spirits, that is invisible living beings that reside in the invisible spirit realm.

So Jesus was a spirit who transformed into a soul?

The spirit that returns to Jehovah when a person dies is all that he is all of his memories, everything that makes that person who he was while alive

I am confused: didn't you just explain that a person is a living, fleshy soul? Where'd this spirit that returns to god come from?

 

[Deeje]

Thanks for replying.

This again? Thought we've been over this. Old habits die hard, I guess.

And again, but sure. Point fingers.

In conclusion, yes, his body did rot in the ground, is that it?

Well thank you for your ‘persecuted Jew’ response....you just demonstrated exactly why it is so difficult to touch nerves without knee jerks.
Actions have reasons.
The Jews had stopped using the divine name, period....so from the Greek perspective, the reason was moot. I did not mention any reason...did I? You ran with that but my response had nothing to do with why the name was no longer used.

Skewing the truth is what humans do best and when a nerve is touched, emotional responses add nothing to the discussion....why do we bother with threads like this when land mines are everywhere? Sheesh! We are as used to being misunderstood and persecuted as you are.

Your personality change is on a hair trigger. Not bothering anymore.

 

[Eyes to See]

Neat! An Orthodox Jew who thinks Jesus' incarnation could be true.

I know what you meant but I would like to add something here if you don't mind. The Bible does not teach that Jesus was incarnated. It teaches that Jesus transferred from God's side to the womb of Mary where he was born a human child.

The idea that he was incarnated means that he was a spirit materialized in human form. But the Bible definitely tells us he was no longer an invisible spirit when he was transferred to the womb of Mary. He was 100% human. And was born a human and grew up as a human. He was unique in that he did not have Adam as his father as all other humans. His direct Father was Jehovah God, thus he did not inherit sin and imperfection from Adam when born as a human.

Thus he was a perfect human. Not a spirit incarnate, or God incarnate. He was not God. He is God's only-begotten son. When on earth he was a perfect human. Not a spirit incarnate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Harel13 Well spotted

I can’t wait to see whether JWs have a good answer or whether they just engage in more mental gymnastics.

I've always considered them to be interesting and worthy of respect.

 

[Eyes to See]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. This is new territory for me.

So Jesus was a spirit who transformed into a soul?

I am confused: didn't you just explain that a person is a living, fleshy soul? Where'd this spirit that returns to god come from?

Understandable questions. And I apologize for the tone Deeje started using with you. There is a scripture that clearly states:

But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.-1 Peter 3:15.

When giving an explanation of our understanding of scripture to anyone that asks us to we should do it with a "mild temper" and "deep respect" of the other person. I hope never to come across as anyway other than having the deepest respect for you and your views, and everyone else's. A Christian is commanded to be able to make a response to anyone demanding of them an explanation for their faith.


In the Bible the word spirit means many things. It can refer to invisible persons that are spirits. God is a spirit. It can mean what is in a person's heart. For example, worshiping God with spirit and truth, we need to do so whole-heartedly. It can refer to a mental inclination of a person or a group of people. The Bible refers to the spirit of the world that operates in the sons of disobedience, this is a predominate mental attitude of disobedience.

That scripture I quoted talking about a man's spirit returning to God is not referring to an invisible spirit person. We have seen that humans are flesh and breath air, or souls. You are reading into the word something that is not there.

I just made a comment to Terry Sampson about incarnation. You are correct in your understanding of my explanation to you about Jesus being an invisible spirit, an angel, and then being transferred to the womb of Mary and becoming a human, a living soul.

 

[Terry Sampson]

But the Bible definitely tells us he was no longer an invisible spirit when he was transferred to the womb of Mary. He was 100% human.

I do believe, if memory serves me, that you are the first and only person that I have ever met who invited me to believe that Jesus was 100% human when he was "transferred to"/installed in Mary's womb.
Your belief that Jesus was 100% human prior to, upon, or even after transfer or installation and my definition of the minimum requirements for being 100% human differ, irreconcilably, which tells me that you and I don't even have a starting point to begin a debate, much less a discussion.
But I appreciate your well-tempered telling me that. Thanks.

 

[Eyes to See]

I do believe, if memory serves me, that you are the first and only person that I have ever met who invited me to believe that Jesus was 100% human when he was "transferred to"/installed in Mary's womb.
Your belief that Jesus was 100% human prior to, upon, or even after transfer or installation and my definition of the minimum requirements for being 100% human differ, irreconcilably, which tells me that you and I don't even have a starting point to begin a debate, much less a discussion.
But I appreciate your well-tempered telling me that. Thanks.

Thank you for that as well.

I find it most curious though. I could find a reference point we both could start with very easily. And it has to do with justice. God's justice required that for the perfect human life that Adam* lost another perfect human life needed to be given as a ransom or atonement. If a life of higher value was given then it would not have met the requirement of justice. True in the Law animals were accepted as atonement of sin, but only for one time. Animals are inferior to humans. Angels are superior to humans. Many animals needed to be sacrificed over and over to atone for sins.

Jesus is called the last Adam. That could not be so if he was not a perfect human.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Jesus is called the last Adam. That could not be so if he was not a perfect human

It would take me far afield from the primary topic of this thread to explain why I can agree with your claim that Jesus was perfect. But my post #11 to Harel @ Questions is about the shortest way that I can explain why I do not agree with your claim that Jesus was 100% human if God was as involved in his conception as you say He was.

@Eyes to See: Bold, blue, italic words posted after you read the first version of this post.

 

[Eyes to See]

I really enjoyed the stimulating discussion here, Harl13 and Terry Sampson. And that was a dignified link Jayhake. Life calls me elsewhere for now.

 

[Harel13]

And I apologize for the tone Deeje started using with you.

No need to apologize. It's nothing new.

You are reading into the word something that is not there.

Good to know. Thank you.

 

[Deeje]

No need to apologize. It's nothing new.

LOL our new friend does not know our history.... If he did, he'd know that you and I have often bounced off one another.....

 

[Samael_Khan]

You're an ex-JW? Man, I should've just gone straight to you...

If you ever want to chat about that stuff then it is cool with me.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Very, very interesting. So any sort of concept, even an abstract one, that holds sway over us, can be referred to as a 'god'? So in this sense, for example, if x does y because Zeus seemingly wants y done, then Zeus has sway over x and in some sense, is, in fact, a god?

Yes, in the same sense as the other gods like Dagon and Baal were considered gods in the early old testament. But if Zeus doesn't exist, then the concept of Zeus is a god to them. Eyes to See explained it well when referring to judges being referred to as God. It is a biblical concept.

This kind of reminds me of what has always bugged me about how cloning is usually presented in fiction - say an evil person wants some form of immortality, so he clones himself. That clone, however, at least to anyone who believes in souls, may be that same evil person down to the DNA, but is still not that person - because they have a different soul.
It sounds as though the reborn Jesus - and anyone else who may be resurrected, aren't inherently those same people that they are based on. Say x dies. The being that is resurrected isn't x but actually x2 - a separate individual.

Consider it more like Souls and sleeves in Altered Carbon (If you have watched that). When one dies their consciousness is information which gets shipped up to the sky and the downloaded into a new body. It is a question of whether consciousness alone makes a person.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, in fact. Just today there was something like that. I meant no disrespect - the opposite. I find @Israel Khan to be an agreeable RFer, which, unfortunately, cannot be said about all RFers. So if he has some knowledge about JW teachings, I guess I could have just headed over to him, without being on the receiving end of some of the drama that goes on here on occasion.

And the drama is already starting to happen. The flawed reasoning in her post is that a believer isn't biased. One has to logically consider both views, the believer and the ex, to determine the truth and they must have evidence to back it up.

Thanks for the approval

 

[Harel13]

Consider it more like Souls and sleeves in Altered Carbon (If you have watched that). When one dies their consciousness is information which gets shipped up to the sky and the downloaded into a new body. It is a question of whether consciousness alone makes a person.

Haven't watched, but this perspective makes sense.

Yes, in the same sense as the other gods like Dagon and Baal were considered gods in the early old testament. But if Zeus doesn't exist, then the concept of Zeus is a god to them. Eyes to See explained it well when referring to judges being referred to as God. It is a biblical concept.

Last year I read what I considered an innovative book. The author, a doctor in philosophy I think, and a rabbi, had a developed a theory that just about any idea or concept - be it a fairytale, Spiderman, the Yeti, people wishing for a hoverboard - that holds any sort of sway over our minds - can be considered real. Of course, he goes on to redefine what "real" means and that gets complicated, but eventually he mentioned Greek mythology as an example. Those stories may not have actually happened in the classic definition of reality, but in a certain way, those characters actually do exist.
It sounds like this is more or less the same.