Some scientists believe the universe is conscious

[Audie]

Science should ask the question "Is the universe conscious?" if and only if it has observed some cosmic activity which might suggest cognition. The universe doesn't appear to know things. Its a philosophical idea only not a scientific one.

As a practical matter, it would have to be gazillion local consciousnesses, as communication over
all that volume would be a prob.

in the event, it’s nothing but the most idle sort of speculation.

withnall the real things to learn about it seems a waste.

 

[wellwisher]

Informative article on scientists theorizing and attempting to show that the universe has consciousness.

Some Scientists Believe the Universe Is Conscious

Sounds like a bad trip ... but what if it's true?

www.popularmechanics.com

The extra features need for consciousness and life, are both based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. Energy is important to life and consciousness, but energy moves in the opposite direction; energy tries to decrease. The mountains solidify into rocks, which are the minerals at their lowest energy. But entropy continues its effects through erosion to make dirt. With entropy increase, all over the universe, all of matter has this prime directive and future of change toward complexity, that can be loosely defined as universal consciousness; simultaneity.

Consciousness, as connected to the brain, is also fundamentally based on entropy. In this case, the neurons by pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions are actually bucking the natural push, toward higher entropy. This ion pumping and exchange lowers ionic entropy. The brain sets up pools of entropic potential, which then creates an enhanced entropic call of nature, that goes beyond what is seen by inanimate objects. It is this enhanced entropic potential, that is the basis for life and consciousness.

Life does this through the action of water, on the organics molecules of life. Water lowers the entropy of these organic materials, by folding, packing, and merging, to lower the surface tension in the water; water and oil effect. The organics end up with this added entropic potential, beyond inanimate matter. This is the enhancement for catalysis; change needs to occur on these surfaces. The brains takes this one step further, segregating ions, which impacts the water, thereby amplifying the water effect even more.

The analogy for this enhance entropic potential or the lowering the entropy to enhance the local 2nd law potential of inanimate matter, is like running a race, where you get to start on a hill and can run downhill to gain speed for the start of the race. Consciousness is about these enhanced signals, triggering the brain faster and further than expected of robotic inanimate matter. This allows consciousness to exceed nature; civilization.

This can be modeled with the simple Physics principle of space-time and separated space and separated time. Our material universe is limited to the laws of space-time, where space and time are tethered and work together. Relativity can curve and expanse space-time but it its remain connected. This includes the 2nd law and the rest of the laws of Physics. Separated space and time, has fewer limits and far more possibilities. Separated space and time can be proven with the experiments of Heisenberg. I call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle. Space and time were not working together, since the more precise you measure one, the other was further off. They appeared more independent.

Separated space and time has a connection to consciousness. Through the imagination, we can think of things that are not part of space-time. For example, fake news is not provable by science in space-time. However, it exists as thought, that can induce some to think this real and part of space-time. That is why it is called fake news. Fiction works the same way, often being a combination of real; historical fiction, and imagination. Innovation also is connected to separated space and time, in the sense that it begins as an idea, not yet part of space-time, nor does it follow logically from the natural potentials of inanimate matter and odds; iPhone. But once the innovation becomes real and tangible, it becomes connected to space-time, yet was spawned where space and time were not connected. The brain can process separated space and time as well as understand reality within space-time. Science tries to keep these separate.

The concepts of will and choice, is about being able to alter the future in space-time, via separated space and time. The alternative path may start out as fictional, since the path may be new and untested. Yet, the entropic potential of the brain can cast a die to the future, with the new future slowly taking form within space-time. Entropic potential offers a way to trick the fate within inanimate matter, by being one step ahead of space-time.

Part of what makes us conscious is connected to an aspect of the brain stem, which causes arousal. If the brain triggers this aspect of the brain stem, your awareness become more focused in the here and now. This is often used by the brain to fulfill an effect called sensory expectation. Sensory expectation is what is seen in separated space and time, now has a subliminal target in real time space-time reality, which catches your attention. This is often considered connected to ESP but is more logical than that.

We have two centers of consciousness. The other center or inner self, is much older and is connected to the main frame aspects of the brain. It can process further and faster and can help ego consciousness interface space-time with separated spaces and time. I remember once in graduate school finals, being Engineering, it was an open book test that allowed you to bring any reference materials. The problems would be applied problems, so you still needed ingenuity to solve the problems. I went to the university library, the day before and had an urge to bring an obscure book. That book had three of the four problems all worked out. This was synchronicity between space-time and separated space and time, and had that brain stem arousal effect for sensory expectation. I followed the hunch and aced the final.

 

[RestlessSoul]

This represents a vague unexplainable 'arguing from ignorance' as to what you think science can and cannot explain. It is a philosophical belief that begins with the assumption that "consciousness as a given" which is not a sufficiently scientific skeptical approach to a theory and hypothesis which is questioned until potentially falsified,

The bold above does not represent the current scientific understanding of consciousness of the complex nervous system of higher animals.

There is as yet no scientific understanding of how consciousness arises from complex nervous systems, anymore than there is scientific understanding of how living organisms arise from complex chemistry.

 

[Audie]

There is as yet no scientific understanding of how consciousness arises from complex nervous systems, anymore than there is scientific understanding of how living organisms arise from complex chemistry.

“ No understanding” is just not true.

And-

Things do happen. Out of sight, before our time,
beyond our understanding. But they happen whether we understand them or not.

At one time people could only wonder why the sun rises.

And come up with weird n wacky, totally wrong, magical
explanations.

The real explanation came slowly, pieces at a time.
All along the way the religious / wof woo crowd would say

“You falsely so called scientists understand nothing about the sun.”


And held out long after the dread materialist
explanation was found.


How are you any different.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is as yet no scientific understanding of how consciousness arises from complex nervous systems,

Absolute statements such as "no understanding" are false right off. I believe you are intentionally ignorant of the science related to the brain, I doubt you have the academic qualification to make the assumption you cling to. The fact that there are unanswered questions as in all sciences does not negate the current research and discoveries concerning the relationship of consciousness and the brain

Skeptics rely on the assumption that Consciousness involves the belief that in some way the brain and mind are two different identities in the belief in a form of Dualism, which there is no evidence of any such assumption or belief.

The following reference goes into detail concerning the contemporary research and discoveries involving consciousness and the brain,

Brain, Mind and Consciousness

Neuropsychological research on the neural basis of behavior generally asserts that brain mechanisms ultimately suffice to explain all psychologically described phenomena. This assumption stems from the idea that the brain consists entirely of material particles and fields, and that all causal...

www.google.com

Brain, Mind and Consciousness
Advances inNeuropsychological research on the neural basis of behavior generally asserts that brain mechanisms ultimately suffice to explain all psychologically described phenomena. This assumption stems from the idea that the brain consists entirely of material particles and fields, and that all causal mechanisms relevant to neuroscience can be formulated solely in terms of properties of these elements. Contemporary basic physical theory differs from classic physics on the important matter of how consciousness of human agents enters into the structure of empirical phenomena. The new principles contradict the older idea that local mechanical processes alone account for the structure of all empirical data. Contemporary physical theory brings directly into the overall causal structure certain psychologically described choices made by human agents about how they will act. This key development in basic physical theory is applicable to neuroscience. Brain, Mind and Consciousness: Advances in Neuroscience Research explores this new framework. Neuroscience Research
By Petr Bob · 2011

anymore than there is scientific understanding of how living organisms arise from complex chemistry.

Again as above your intentional ignorance of science is profound based on a religious agenda.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Absolute statements such as "no understanding" are false right off. I believe you are intentionally ignorant of the science related to the brain, I doubt you have the academic qualification to make the assumption you cling to. The fact that there are unanswered questions as in all sciences does not negate the current research and discoveries concerning the relationship of consciousness and the brain

Skeptics rely on the assumption that Consciousness involves the belief that in some way the brain and mind are two different identities in the belief in a form of Dualism, which there is no evidence of any such assumption or belief.

The following reference goes into detail concerning the contemporary research and discoveries involving consciousness and the brain,

Brain, Mind and Consciousness

Neuropsychological research on the neural basis of behavior generally asserts that brain mechanisms ultimately suffice to explain all psychologically described phenomena. This assumption stems from the idea that the brain consists entirely of material particles and fields, and that all causal...

www.google.com

Brain, Mind and Consciousness
Advances inNeuropsychological research on the neural basis of behavior generally asserts that brain mechanisms ultimately suffice to explain all psychologically described phenomena. This assumption stems from the idea that the brain consists entirely of material particles and fields, and that all causal mechanisms relevant to neuroscience can be formulated solely in terms of properties of these elements. Contemporary basic physical theory differs from classic physics on the important matter of how consciousness of human agents enters into the structure of empirical phenomena. The new principles contr


Again as above your intentional ignorance of science is profound based on a religious agenda.

Re

 

[shunyadragon]

The extra features need for consciousness and life, are both based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. Energy is important to life and consciousness, but energy moves in the opposite direction; energy tries to decrease. The mountains solidify into rocks, which are the minerals at their lowest energy. But entropy continues its effects through erosion to make dirt. With entropy increase, all over the universe, all of matter has this prime directive and future of change toward complexity, that can be loosely defined as universal consciousness; simultaneity.

Consciousness, as connected to the brain, is also fundamentally based on entropy. In this case, the neurons by pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions are actually bucking the natural push, toward higher entropy. This ion pumping and exchange lowers ionic entropy. The brain sets up pools of entropic potential, which then creates an enhanced entropic call of nature, that goes beyond what is seen by inanimate objects. It is this enhanced entropic potential, that is the basis for life and consciousness.

Life does this through the action of water, on the organics molecules of life. Water lowers the entropy of these organic materials, by folding, packing, and merging, to lower the surface tension in the water; water and oil effect. The organics end up with this added entropic potential, beyond inanimate matter. This is the enhancement for catalysis; change needs to occur on these surfaces. The brains takes this one step further, segregating ions, which impacts the water, thereby amplifying the water effect even more.

The analogy for this enhance entropic potential or the lowering the entropy to enhance the local 2nd law potential of inanimate matter, is like running a race, where you get to start on a hill and can run downhill to gain speed for the start of the race. Consciousness is about these enhanced signals, triggering the brain faster and further than expected of robotic inanimate matter. This allows consciousness to exceed nature; civilization.

This can be modeled with the simple Physics principle of space-time and separated space and separated time. Our material universe is limited to the laws of space-time, where space and time are tethered and work together. Relativity can curve and expanse space-time but it its remain connected. This includes the 2nd law and the rest of the laws of Physics. Separated space and time, has fewer limits and far more possibilities. Separated space and time can be proven with the experiments of Heisenberg. I call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle. Space and time were not working together, since the more precise you measure one, the other was further off. They appeared more independent.

Separated space and time has a connection to consciousness. Through the imagination, we can think of things that are not part of space-time. For example, fake news is not provable by science in space-time. However, it exists as thought, that can induce some to think this real and part of space-time. That is why it is called fake news. Fiction works the same way, often being a combination of real; historical fiction, and imagination. Innovation also is connected to separated space and time, in the sense that it begins as an idea, not yet part of space-time, nor does it follow logically from the natural potentials of inanimate matter and odds; iPhone. But once the innovation becomes real and tangible, it becomes connected to space-time, yet was spawned where space and time were not connected. The brain can process separated space and time as well as understand reality within space-time. Science tries to keep these separate.

The concepts of will and choice, is about being able to alter the future in space-time, via separated space and time. The alternative path may start out as fictional, since the path may be new and untested. Yet, the entropic potential of the brain can cast a die to the future, with the new future slowly taking form within space-time. Entropic potential offers a way to trick the fate within inanimate matter, by being one step ahead of space-time.

Part of what makes us conscious is connected to an aspect of the brain stem, which causes arousal. If the brain triggers this aspect of the brain stem, your awareness become more focused in the here and now. This is often used by the brain to fulfill an effect called sensory expectation. Sensory expectation is what is seen in separated space and time, now has a subliminal target in real time space-time reality, which catches your attention. This is often considered connected to ESP but is more logical than that.

We have two centers of consciousness. The other center or inner self, is much older and is connected to the main frame aspects of the brain. It can process further and faster and can help ego consciousness interface space-time with separated spaces and time. I remember once in graduate school finals, being Engineering, it was an open book test that allowed you to bring any reference materials. The problems would be applied problems, so you still needed ingenuity to solve the problems. I went to the university library, the day before and had an urge to bring an obscure book. That book had three of the four problems all worked out. This was synchronicity between space-time and separated space and time, and had that brain stem arousal effect for sensory expectation. I followed the hunch and aced the final.

Ramble, ramble, rattle, rattle, clinkity clink clink.

 

[shunyadragon]

Re

Your vocabulary includes one consonant and one vowel.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Your vocabulary includes one consonant and one vowel.

Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Obvious.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Ramble, ramble, rattle, rattle, clinkity clink clink.

Pot, meet kettle

 

[Audie]

It ought not be that difficult to agree a definition of consciousness; something to do with awareness, I’d have thought. The difficulty for the natural sciences is that awareness isn’t a physical entity which can be examined objectively. Indeed, all of conscious experience is necessarily subjective, and we each have direct, empirical access only to our own. I cannot see what’s in your mind nor view the world through your eyes, however effectively you may communicate your experiences in words or other media. So we’re left with trying to evaluate a phenomenon without material substance.

Ought not?

 

[shunyadragon]

It ought not be that difficult to agree a definition of consciousness; something to do with awareness, I’d have thought. The difficulty for the natural sciences is that awareness isn’t a physical entity which can be examined objectively. Indeed, all of conscious experience is necessarily subjective, and we each have direct, empirical access only to our own. I cannot see what’s in your mind nor view the world through your eyes, however effectively you may communicate your experiences in words or other media. So we’re left with trying to evaluate a phenomenon without material substance.

It is not difficult to define consciousness at at all; It is far more than simply awareness. It is the interaction of the brain and the body, between others and the surrounding environment. This has been adequately explained by science despite unanswered question.

There is absolutely no evidence of a phenomenon without material substance except in your imagination.

 

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Obvious.

Yes the obvious of the limits of your vocabulary to a grunt, The reference reflects the intentional ignorance of your assertion "no understanding."

 

[shunyadragon]

Pot, meet kettle

Yes it takes two to make the noise @RestlessSoul and @wellwisher

 

[Wandering Monk]

I wonder: often people whose brains have been severely damaged will exhibit a change in personality. I saw this even after my dad had a minor stroke. This would seem to indicate that how we interact with the world and how we perceive it are entirely physical phenomena that can be explained without invoking spiritual or supernatural elements.

 

[wellwisher]

Ramble, ramble, rattle, rattle, clinkity clink clink.

You may be a little rusty to follow.

The problem with the current life sciences, is they do not take into account water, as well as I can. I have an extra variable that can allow logic to replace organic-centric dice and cards. Water packs and folds protein to minimize surface tension. In the case of water this increases water entropy, but it lower organic entropy. The organics have an entropic potential; bioactivity. This is simple and provable.

I also believe the best place to define consciousness, to observe one's own consciousness from the inside. Observation from the outside leaves out too much detail, since you essentially have a black box. Reality needs an open box. I have more internal data than anyone beyond some old timer mystics. In terms of scientists.

Entropy makes the most sense as main dynamic variable for both life and consciousness, since the perpetual movement toward increasing complexity; 2nd law, increases with time; we call it evolution. An animal may have one food; one energy source, but it can still evolve via entropy/change.

The confusion often comes from people not understanding entropy. It is a real and measurable variable. The problem appear based on how entropy is explained. Entropy is not energy. Energy= entropy times temperature. The temperature aspect is where the statistical explanation for entropy appears to come from, if you make the mistake of treating entropy as energy. But by itself, entropy is a state variable, meaning for any given state of matter, it has a constant entropy value. Entropy is a measurable constant which can be seen in any Chemistry handbook.

You can treat a glass of water, at the nanoscale, as connected to water and statistical mechanics. That is fine, but the sum of all that diversity and activity adds to a constant entropy value. When I say entropic potential, all I have done is change the constant to a smaller or lower constant entropy. Temperature comes in if we need to know the energy difference (S1-S2) times T. Warm blooded animals have a larger free energy change than cold blooded, for the same changes. Movement toward lower entropy states have more free potential in warm blooded but this cost more energy, up front.

We can look at the human brain as a collective state of given entropy; constant.; set point. Consciousness is more like the flux between entropy states, since it is less that the start or finish, but caught up in the journey between.

 

[Revoltingest]

Informative article on scientists theorizing and attempting to show that the universe has consciousness.

Some Scientists Believe the Universe Is Conscious

Sounds like a bad trip ... but what if it's true?

www.popularmechanics.com

Your linked article is for members only (not me).
To believe it as science, I'd expect them to define
consciousness, & to have tested the universe for it.
Has this been done? Or is it just belief without rigor?

 

[shunyadragon]

You may be a little rusty to follow.

The problem with the current life sciences, is they do not take into account water, as well as I can. I have an extra variable that can allow logic to replace organic-centric dice and cards. Water packs and folds protein to minimize surface tension. In the case of water this increases water entropy, but it lower organic entropy. The organics have an entropic potential; bioactivity. This is simple and provable.

I also believe the best place to define consciousness, to observe one's own consciousness from the inside. Observation from the outside leaves out too much detail, since you essentially have a black box. Reality needs an open box. I have more internal data than anyone beyond some old timer mystics. In terms of scientists.

Entropy makes the most sense as main dynamic variable for both life and consciousness, since the perpetual movement toward increasing complexity; 2nd law, increases with time; we call it evolution. An animal may have one food; one energy source, but it can still evolve via entropy/change.

The confusion often comes from people not understanding entropy. It is a real and measurable variable. The problem appear based on how entropy is explained. Entropy is not energy. Energy= entropy times temperature. The temperature aspect is where the statistical explanation for entropy appears to come from, if you make the mistake of treating entropy as energy. But by itself, entropy is a state variable, meaning for any given state of matter, it has a constant entropy value. Entropy is a measurable constant which can be seen in any Chemistry handbook.

You can treat a glass of water, at the nanoscale, as connected to water and statistical mechanics. That is fine, but the sum of all that diversity and activity adds to a constant entropy value. When I say entropic potential, all I have done is change the constant to a smaller or lower constant entropy. Temperature comes in if we need to know the energy difference (S1-S2) times T. Warm blooded animals have a larger free energy change than cold blooded, for the same changes. Movement toward lower entropy states have more free potential in warm blooded but this cost more energy, up front.

We can look at the human brain as a collective state of given entropy; constant.; set point. Consciousness is more like the flux between entropy states, since it is less that the start or finish, but caught up in the journey between.

Nothing new.Ramble, ramble, rattle, rattle, clinkity clink clink.

 

[shunyadragon]

Your linked article is for members only (not me).
To believe it as science, I'd expect them to define
consciousness, & to have tested the universe for it.
Has this been done? Or is it just belief without rigor?

True this is what I call backdoor philosophy. You define what you believe as your conclusion, and then go back and make things fit with a high fog index.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Science should ask the question "Is the universe conscious?" if and only if it has observed some cosmic activity which might suggest cognition. The universe doesn't appear to know things. Its a philosophical idea only not a scientific one.

I remember reading a piece somewhere that if the universe is going to be akin with a larger macro organism that is conscious , of which we are 'inside' of we would need to identify some kind of neural network similar to a brain and or nervous system that would suggest a more complex form of consciousness exists much like ourselves where our cells can communicate enabling our consciousness utilizing an amazing means of collective communication.