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Some thoughts about evolution vs creation debates

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The Theory of Evolution is supported by close to 200 years of accumulated evidence in numerous scientific fields of study. There is no abandonment of this very strong theory. I fail to see how you can look at the evidence for the ToE and feel it is lacking, nor cn I see how you could lean towards creationism since it lacks a workable hypothesis, much less a tested theory.

My guess is that your perusal of "evidence" amounts to no actual reading of the research. If I'm wrong, my apologies. Provide specific research you feel is faulty and explain why.
The only part of evolution theory that I was questioning was the idea that all life on earth has a common ancestor in a single species, and I think that some researchers, possibly most of them, are not currently thinking that way. Some of them are thinking that the most recent common ancestor of all species might have been a pool of cells that no one would call a “species.”

I’m not sure I know what you mean by “creationism.” If you mean thinking of a Bible creation story as an actual physical description if some things that happened less than 10,000 years ago, I’m not leaning towards that at all. I do have a religious reason for my interest in this topic, but it has nothing to do with any Bible creation story.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The only part of evolution theory that I was questioning was the idea that all life on earth has a common ancestor in a single species, and I think that some researchers, possibly most of them, are not currently thinking that way. Some of them are thinking that the most recent common ancestor of all species might have been a pool of cells that no one would call a “species.”

I’m not sure I know what you mean by “creationism.” If you mean thinking of a Bible creation story as an actual physical description if some things that happened less than 10,000 years ago, I’m not leaning towards that at all. I do have a religious reason for my interest in this topic, but it has nothing to do with any Bible creation story.
Can you support this with a link? Articles on horizontal gene transfer are not evidence for multiple species at the beginning.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The only part of evolution theory that I was questioning was the idea that all life on earth has a common ancestor in a single species, and I think that some researchers, possibly most of them, are not currently thinking that way. Some of them are thinking that the most recent common ancestor of all species might have been a pool of cells that no one would call a “species.”
Can you support this with a link?

Histories of life: tree, web and ring models
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It just makes no sense to complain of biological knowledge being used unfairly against supposedly religious doctrine.

To call that an example of blaming the victim is an euphemism.

If doctrine wants to be respected, it has to earn that respect. That can't be achieved by sanctimonious arrogance.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Completely false.
...
ID is without a doubt a version of Christian creationism.
Uh...
NOPE.

Letter from Charles R. Darwin to Darwin, C. R. to J.F.W. Herschel, J. F. W. (May 23, 1861)
I am in a complete jumble on the point. One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed; yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this. For, I am not prepared to admit that God designed the feathers in the tail of the rock-pigeon to vary in a highly peculiar manner in order that man might select such variations & make a Fan-tail...

WORDS evolve, even those coined by skeptics of evolution. Consider "intelligent design," a phrase used for over a century by critics of Darwin but only recently bursting into prominence as both a concept and a movement intended to explain, its proponents say, the "irreducible complexity" of nature.

According to the Discovery Institute, a group based in Seattle that promotes intelligent design as an alternative to natural selection, the phrase may have first been used by an Oxford scholar, F. C. S. Schiller, who in 1897 wrote, "It will not be possible to rule out the supposition that the process of Evolution may be guided by an intelligent design."

Late 1800s
DARWIN, AND AFTER DARWIN - George John Romanes
Innumerable cases of the adaptation of organisms to their surroundings being the facts which now stand before us to be explained either by natural selection or by supernatural intention
, we may first consider a statement which is frequently met with—namely, that even if all such cases of adaptation were proved to be fully explicable by the theory of descent, this would constitute no disproof of the theory of design: all the cases of adaptation, it is argued, might still be due to design, even though they admit of being hypothetically accounted for by the theory of descent.
I have heard an eminent Professor tell his class that the many instances of mechanical adaptation discovered and described by Darwin as occurring in orchids, seemed to him to furnish better proof of supernatural contrivance than of natural causes; and another eminent Professor has informed me that, although he had read the Origin of Species with care, he could see in it no evidence of natural selection which might not equally well have been adduced in favour of intelligent design. But here we meet with a radical misconception of the whole logical attitude of science. For, be it observed, this exception in limine to the evidence which we are about to consider does not question that natural selection may be able to do all that Darwin ascribes to it. The objection is urged against his interpretation of the facts merely on the ground that these facts might equally well be ascribed to intelligent design. And so undoubtedly they might, if we were all simple enough to adopt a supernatural explanation whenever a natural one is found sufficient to account for the facts. Once admit the irrational principle that we may assume the operation of higher causes where the operation of lower ones is sufficient to explain the observed phenomena, and all our science and all our philosophy are scattered to the winds. ...

So much, then, for the illogical position that, granting the evidence in favour of natural descent and supernatural design to be equal and parallel, we should hesitate in our choice between the two theories. But, of course, if the evidence is supposed not to be equal and parallel—i. e. if it is supposed that the theory of natural selection is not so good a theory whereby to explain the facts of adaptation as is that of supernatural design,—then the objection is no longer the one which we are considering. It is quite another objection, and one which is not prima facie absurd. Therefore let us state clearly the distinct question which thus arises.
Innumerable cases of adaptation of organisms to their environments are the observed facts for which an explanation is required. To supply this explanation, two, and only two, hypotheses are in the field. Of these two hypotheses one is intelligent design manifested directly in special creation; the other is natural causation operating through countless ages of the past. Now, the adaptations in question involve an innumerable multitude of special mechanisms, in most cases even within the limits of any one given species; but when we consider the sum of all these mechanisms presented by organic nature as a whole, the mind must indeed be dull which does not feel astounded. For, be it further observed, these mechanical contrivances are, for the most part, no merely simple arrangements, which might reasonably be supposed due, like the phenomena of crystallization, to comparatively simple physical causes. On the contrary, they everywhere and habitually exhibit so deep-laid, so intricate, and often so remote an adaptation of means to ends, that no machinery of human contrivance can properly be said to equal their perfection from a mechanical point of view. Therefore, without question, the hypothesis which first of all they suggest—or suggest most readily—is the hypothesis of design. And this hypothesis becomes virtually the only hypothesis possible, if it be assumed—as it generally was assumed by natural theologians of the past,—that all species of plants and animals were introduced into the world suddenly. For it is quite inconceivable that any known cause, other than intelligent design, could be competent to turn out instantaneously any one of these intricate pieces of machinery, already adapted to the performance of its special function. But, on the other hand, if there is any evidence to show that one species becomes slowly transformed into another—or that one set of adaptations becomes slowly changed into another set as changing circumstances require,—then it becomes quite possible to imagine that a strictly natural causation may have had something to do with the matter.

Intelligent design - Wikipedia
Barbara Forrest writes that the intelligent design movement began in 1984 with the book The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories, co-written by creationist Charles B. Thaxton, a chemist, with two other authors, and published by Jon A. Buell's Foundation for Thought and Ethics.

Fred Hoyle (agnostic)
1950s

The second of Hoyle's nucleosynthesis papers also introduced an interesting use of the anthropic principle, which was not then known by that name. In trying to work out the routes of stellar nucleosynthesis, ....
Hoyle therefore predicted the values of the energy, the nuclear spin and the parity of the compound state in the carbon nucleus formed by three alpha particles (helium nuclei), which was later borne out by experiment.
This energy level, while needed to produce carbon in large quantities, was statistically very unlikely to fall where it does in the scheme of carbon energy levels. Hoyle later wrote:
Would you not say to yourself, "Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
— Fred Hoyle

In 1982 Hoyle presented Evolution from Space for the Royal Institution's Omni Lecture. After considering what he thought of as a very remote possibility of Earth-based abiogenesis he concluded:
If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of...

— Fred Hoyle

Intelligent Design is not creationism
...the substance of [Hoyl's] design argument was based on physical evidence rather than Scriptural authority and therefore should be judged on the physical evidence rather than on any hidden motives he may or may not have had.

A Brief History of Intelligent Design
A correct history will make it clear that “intelligent design” was not a term invented to avoid the Edwards ruling, but a project that has always been distinct from the core claims of creationism.


Defending Intelligent Design
Phillip Johnson is known as the father of intelligent design. The idea in its current form appeared in the 1980s, and Johnson adopted and developed it after Darwinian evolution came up short, in his view, in explaining how all organisms, including humans, came into being. Johnson taught law for over 30 years at the University of California at Berkeley and is the author of the book Darwin on Trial, in which he argues that empirical evidence in support of Darwin's theory is lacking.

The naturalism paradigm
NOVA: What is intelligent design?
Phillip Johnson: I would like to put a basic explanation of the intelligent-design concept as I understand it this way. There are two hypotheses to consider scientifically. One is you need a creative intelligence to do all the creating that has been done in the history of life; the other is you don't, because we can show that unintelligent, purposeless, natural processes are capable of doing and actually did do the whole job. Now, that is what is taught as fact in our textbooks. And to me it's a hypothesis, which needs to be tested by evidence and experiment. If it can't be confirmed by experiment, then you're left with the same two possibilities, and neither one should be said to be something like a scientific fact.

Wrong... again.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Uh...
NOPE.

Letter from Charles R. Darwin to Darwin, C. R. to J.F.W. Herschel, J. F. W. (May 23, 1861)
I am in a complete jumble on the point. One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed; yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this. For, I am not prepared to admit that God designed the feathers in the tail of the rock-pigeon to vary in a highly peculiar manner in order that man might select such variations & make a Fan-tail...

WORDS evolve, even those coined by skeptics of evolution. Consider "intelligent design," a phrase used for over a century by critics of Darwin but only recently bursting into prominence as both a concept and a movement intended to explain, its proponents say, the "irreducible complexity" of nature.

According to the Discovery Institute, a group based in Seattle that promotes intelligent design as an alternative to natural selection, the phrase may have first been used by an Oxford scholar, F. C. S. Schiller, who in 1897 wrote, "It will not be possible to rule out the supposition that the process of Evolution may be guided by an intelligent design."

Late 1800s
DARWIN, AND AFTER DARWIN - George John Romanes
Innumerable cases of the adaptation of organisms to their surroundings being the facts which now stand before us to be explained either by natural selection or by supernatural intention
, we may first consider a statement which is frequently met with—namely, that even if all such cases of adaptation were proved to be fully explicable by the theory of descent, this would constitute no disproof of the theory of design: all the cases of adaptation, it is argued, might still be due to design, even though they admit of being hypothetically accounted for by the theory of descent.
I have heard an eminent Professor tell his class that the many instances of mechanical adaptation discovered and described by Darwin as occurring in orchids, seemed to him to furnish better proof of supernatural contrivance than of natural causes; and another eminent Professor has informed me that, although he had read the Origin of Species with care, he could see in it no evidence of natural selection which might not equally well have been adduced in favour of intelligent design. But here we meet with a radical misconception of the whole logical attitude of science. For, be it observed, this exception in limine to the evidence which we are about to consider does not question that natural selection may be able to do all that Darwin ascribes to it. The objection is urged against his interpretation of the facts merely on the ground that these facts might equally well be ascribed to intelligent design. And so undoubtedly they might, if we were all simple enough to adopt a supernatural explanation whenever a natural one is found sufficient to account for the facts. Once admit the irrational principle that we may assume the operation of higher causes where the operation of lower ones is sufficient to explain the observed phenomena, and all our science and all our philosophy are scattered to the winds. ...

So much, then, for the illogical position that, granting the evidence in favour of natural descent and supernatural design to be equal and parallel, we should hesitate in our choice between the two theories. But, of course, if the evidence is supposed not to be equal and parallel—i. e. if it is supposed that the theory of natural selection is not so good a theory whereby to explain the facts of adaptation as is that of supernatural design,—then the objection is no longer the one which we are considering. It is quite another objection, and one which is not prima facie absurd. Therefore let us state clearly the distinct question which thus arises.
Innumerable cases of adaptation of organisms to their environments are the observed facts for which an explanation is required. To supply this explanation, two, and only two, hypotheses are in the field. Of these two hypotheses one is intelligent design manifested directly in special creation; the other is natural causation operating through countless ages of the past. Now, the adaptations in question involve an innumerable multitude of special mechanisms, in most cases even within the limits of any one given species; but when we consider the sum of all these mechanisms presented by organic nature as a whole, the mind must indeed be dull which does not feel astounded. For, be it further observed, these mechanical contrivances are, for the most part, no merely simple arrangements, which might reasonably be supposed due, like the phenomena of crystallization, to comparatively simple physical causes. On the contrary, they everywhere and habitually exhibit so deep-laid, so intricate, and often so remote an adaptation of means to ends, that no machinery of human contrivance can properly be said to equal their perfection from a mechanical point of view. Therefore, without question, the hypothesis which first of all they suggest—or suggest most readily—is the hypothesis of design. And this hypothesis becomes virtually the only hypothesis possible, if it be assumed—as it generally was assumed by natural theologians of the past,—that all species of plants and animals were introduced into the world suddenly. For it is quite inconceivable that any known cause, other than intelligent design, could be competent to turn out instantaneously any one of these intricate pieces of machinery, already adapted to the performance of its special function. But, on the other hand, if there is any evidence to show that one species becomes slowly transformed into another—or that one set of adaptations becomes slowly changed into another set as changing circumstances require,—then it becomes quite possible to imagine that a strictly natural causation may have had something to do with the matter.

Intelligent design - Wikipedia
Barbara Forrest writes that the intelligent design movement began in 1984 with the book The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories, co-written by creationist Charles B. Thaxton, a chemist, with two other authors, and published by Jon A. Buell's Foundation for Thought and Ethics.

Fred Hoyle (agnostic)
1950s

The second of Hoyle's nucleosynthesis papers also introduced an interesting use of the anthropic principle, which was not then known by that name. In trying to work out the routes of stellar nucleosynthesis, ....
Hoyle therefore predicted the values of the energy, the nuclear spin and the parity of the compound state in the carbon nucleus formed by three alpha particles (helium nuclei), which was later borne out by experiment.
This energy level, while needed to produce carbon in large quantities, was statistically very unlikely to fall where it does in the scheme of carbon energy levels. Hoyle later wrote:
Would you not say to yourself, "Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
— Fred Hoyle

In 1982 Hoyle presented Evolution from Space for the Royal Institution's Omni Lecture. After considering what he thought of as a very remote possibility of Earth-based abiogenesis he concluded:
If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of...

— Fred Hoyle

Intelligent Design is not creationism
...the substance of [Hoyl's] design argument was based on physical evidence rather than Scriptural authority and therefore should be judged on the physical evidence rather than on any hidden motives he may or may not have had.

A Brief History of Intelligent Design
A correct history will make it clear that “intelligent design” was not a term invented to avoid the Edwards ruling, but a project that has always been distinct from the core claims of creationism.


Defending Intelligent Design
Phillip Johnson is known as the father of intelligent design. The idea in its current form appeared in the 1980s, and Johnson adopted and developed it after Darwinian evolution came up short, in his view, in explaining how all organisms, including humans, came into being. Johnson taught law for over 30 years at the University of California at Berkeley and is the author of the book Darwin on Trial, in which he argues that empirical evidence in support of Darwin's theory is lacking.

The naturalism paradigm
NOVA: What is intelligent design?
Phillip Johnson: I would like to put a basic explanation of the intelligent-design concept as I understand it this way. There are two hypotheses to consider scientifically. One is you need a creative intelligence to do all the creating that has been done in the history of life; the other is you don't, because we can show that unintelligent, purposeless, natural processes are capable of doing and actually did do the whole job. Now, that is what is taught as fact in our textbooks. And to me it's a hypothesis, which needs to be tested by evidence and experiment. If it can't be confirmed by experiment, then you're left with the same two possibilities, and neither one should be said to be something like a scientific fact.

Wrong... again.
?

Do you think that you have challenged @Jose Fly 's statement?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
The most popular way of thinking now might be what some call a “primordial soup,” some pool of water with a variety of pre-life or early life forms trading genes back and forth. Some kinds and combinations of genes thrived more than others and were passed around. Somehow the genes started being passed around a lot less, and most new combinations were only by reproduction. I don’t see any researchers saying that there was ever a single organism that was the ancestor of all life on earth.

I haven’t done the research that I would want to do, to agree or disagree.
This looks to me like a misunderstanding. In the "primordial soup" - by which I presume you mean the pre-biotic chemical mixture from which replicating organisms arose for the first time - there were no "genes" at all.

A "gene' is part of an already highly sophisticated molecule that carries instructions to make some feature of the organism. If you don't have DNA, or even RNA, it is pretty meaningless to speak of "genes". Genes would have come into play much later in the process.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This article discusses some views of researchers in which there never was a single species or any single kind of living organism that was an ancestor of all life on earth.

https://joelvelasco.net/Papers/velasco_luca_tree.pdf
Yet it affirms, multiple times, that common ancestry appears to be correct. What it questions is the far more specific idea of the "tree of life", pointing out such things as lateral gene transfer can take place, i.e. a species on one "twig" can be linked laterally, rather than vertically by descent, to another.

So I don't at the moment see how this helps your claim - which I would dispute - that science is moving away from the idea of common ancestry.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Maybe so. What I mean is that there there might be constraints in the nature of matter and energy that have resulted in the same genes appearing in different life forms, even if they did not originate at the same time in the same pool.
That sounds like handwaving woo to me. It is, to say the least, a completely unevidenced speculation.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The most popular way of thinking now might be what some call a “primordial soup,” some pool of water with a variety of pre-life or early life forms trading genes back and forth. Some kinds and combinations of genes thrived more than others and were passed around.
This looks to me like a misunderstanding. In the "primordial soup" - by which I presume you mean the pre-biotic chemical mixture from which replicating organisms arose for the first time - there were no "genes" at all.

A "gene' is part of an already highly sophisticated molecule that carries instructions to make some feature of the organism. If you don't have DNA, or even RNA, it is pretty meaningless to speak of "genes". Genes would have come into play much later in the process.
The theory I described might not be a popular one after all, or even a well known one.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It seems like an unnecessary limiting assumption to me that the one that became predominant only appeared in one place.
But that is what the evidence strongly suggests. We do not see different parallel biochemistries existing today. We see one basic biochemical system in use for all life, from the simplest prokaryote bacterium to the whale or mankind.

There are some interesting variants, e.g. metabolism that does not use oxygen, but even in these, you still have most of the same biochemistry operating in the cell as for everything else. This is highly suggestive that one biochemical system came to dominate at at early stage and that any competing types were snuffed out, leaving no descendants today.

And it is not a "limiting assumption", any more than any other application of Ockham's Razor in science. If somebody were to come across evidence that some living organisms came from a different original biochemistry, then that would be fine. It would not be at all hard to accommodate within the theories of evolutionary biology. It would be very exciting, in fact, to imagine. But without any evidence, it is a fairly arid speculation.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
The theory I described might not be a popular one after all, or even a well known one.
No, this is nothing to do with "popularity". The theory you described does not exist.

Nobody else here has heard of it, and citations you have provided do not support it.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Gee. I wonder who feels "threatened by the notion of evolution".

I don't know... certainly not me. How about you?
You don't know? Okay. In that case, let me inform you then. They are none... zero. No one feels threatened by the notion of evolution.
Me? Can I lol? HAHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Allow me to inform you further. Everyone believes in evolution. We see it everyday.
The Darwinian idea, and worldview, however, is another story.
It's an idea that even scientist say is impossible... but you, among others believe it.
Now who in their right mind, would feel threatened by an impossibility? No one. Only someone who has lost their mind would... I think.

I don't think those who "insist that the Earth is between 6 and 10 thousand years old", are fools. They might be misled, but fools?

There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. But if you have plenty of opportunity to educate yourself and you refuse to, then you're a fool.
Seems strong, but on reflection, after listening to a talk, I realize that referring to someone as a fool, might be appropriate. Actually the speaker referred to you guys as fools, and quoted Proverbs 1:7.
So I get it.

Surely, you don't think that of scientists who work out things to the best of their ability... even though wrong.
How often have we humans been wrong? Does that make humans fools?
confused0067.gif


Again, absolutely nothing wrong with being uneducated... but if you continue to be willfully ignorant even after being educated then you're a fool.
It depends on what the person is being educated in. If someone is being educated in foolishness, surely, they are not foolish for rejecting it. The other person may believe the person is ignorant, whereas they are not, and that's really the part I was looking at.

Obviously, you think that what you believe is correct, and anyone who disagrees is a fool.
I guess it works both ways.

You sound quite :mad:. Reminds me of Dawkins... Only, he turns red.

Funny, because I'm not angry in the least. Perhaps you just listen as if you're just waiting to be insulted.
Ah. You say you are not angry, but.... I don't believe you. I would like to, but I have seen too many Atheist react to someone opposing their most loved ideology, and... if they are not angry, then I think we should hide under a rock, if they truly become angry... Actually, I don't think a rock would save us. Suicide might be better.

How did you get me in this though?
Nothing you said involves me. So I have absolutely no reason to feel insulted. By what?
I was just thinking of those guys whom I am sure many are just as sincere in their beliefs, as you are.
Nothing to do with me.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Respectfully, and I can't know this for a fact that my way is correct, but I interpret stories and scriptures as containing an element of metaphor. I'm willing to believe the Adam and Eve story is 50-99% metaphor. And if you were to ask me if I do the same to Hinduism, I do.... for example, I like that Krishna is depicted as being blue, because it helps me to look at pictures and determine who is being depicted, but I tend to think it's metaphor and that he may not have actually been blue.
Yeah, it's fun that Krishna is blue. It's cute and fun to me. Krishna in many pictures seems to me (my personal view only) to be representing what is possible in life: to be in a state of simple innocent enjoyment and harmony, delighted with the moment, being alive. It's what we all want, and can get if we go the right ways (various ways) to such. Of course, life has things like obligations, necessities and more which complicate matters, and thus philosophy or religion arrives to try to aid us. In the Garden of Eden story, they were in a timeless (Tree of Life is there) paradise, innocent, in natural bliss without effort. It's like Krisha without the image. Or maybe more about additional things, as the story very soon moves to deep real life issues like the birth of consciousness/loss of innocence event, and the break from trust in God, and all the painful outcomes that always causes everywhere for any culture for every individual, but is inevitable for all. Or so it seems. Krishna though would be the example to some degree of not falling. Adam still in the Garden (without the fall, without the break from God). Yes? Of course that's only a portion of the situation, but that's one parallel quality.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Respectfully, and I can't know this for a fact that my way is correct, but I interpret stories and scriptures as containing an element of metaphor. I'm willing to believe the Adam and Eve story is 50-99% metaphor. And if you were to ask me if I do the same to Hinduism, I do.... for example, I like that Krishna is depicted as being blue, because it helps me to look at pictures and determine who is being depicted, but I tend to think it's metaphor and that he may not have actually been blue.
Blue gods aside, what difference does it make if one believes Genesis 1 is literal, or a metaphor ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It looks to me like from the time of Darwin, sometimes people have tried to use evolution theories to discredit Christianity or some Christian beliefs. More recently some people who felt targeted by that started thinking that it was happening in public schools, and they have responded by trying to have evolution theory removed from the curriculum and/or have creation theory added, and by trying to discredit evolution theory. The debates here may or may not have some roots in that.

As I understand it, the creationism that’s being debated here includes thinking that one of the creation stories in the Bible is an actual physical description of how the universe, including the earth and all living creatures, were first created less than 10,000 years ago. I don’t claim to know if that’s true or not, but however that may be, I disagree with trying to have evolution theory removed from the curriculum or having creation theory added to it, and I disagree with trying to discredit evolution theory. Even if evolution theory is being used in public education to try to discredit some religious beliefs, I disagree with those ways of responding to that.

The arguments that I’ve seen here for thinking that all life on earth has a common ancestor look very weak to me, and it looks to me like many researchers, possibly most of them, have abandoned that idea in practice.
It seems as though public schools are omitting much now. Today's high school graduate is almost totally ignorant of history.

If history can be eliminated, I don't see why evolution can't be dropped as well.
 
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