Some Thoughts on Catholicism and the Current State of Things

[pearl]

Personally, I do think that the issue of not having female priests should be revisited as conditions now are much different than they were 2000 years ago.

True, but I do not see this happening, not with Francis. The issue would cause a major schism not unlike Vatican II itself.

 

[metis]

True, but I do not see this happening, not with Francis. The issue would cause a major schism not unlike Vatican II itself.

I agree as he already has lots of clergy who are on a different page.

As you well know, the Church has changed over the centuries, but it tends to do so very s-l-o-w-l-y, which I think is generally a good thing so as to not go with every craze that might be going around. However, otoh, it can sometimes also be frustrating.

 

[Glaurung]

Personally, I do think that the issue of not having female priests should be revisited as conditions now are much different than they were 2000 years ago.

Ordaining women to Holy Orders is a red line for me. I could not remain in communion with Rome if it were it to try such a thing. Fortunately, I don't think even Francis would dare try given Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

Judgement is not to us to make, but to God alone.

Only God can judge a soul. But we can judge an objective state of grave matter and thus exclude from the sacraments those who knowingly and obstinately persist in such a state.

 

[pearl]

Only God can judge a soul. But we can judge an objective state of grave matter and thus exclude from the sacraments those who knowingly and obstinately persist in such a state.

Then you are denying the very strength to overcome the sin. And one must be able to acknowledge the sin in good conscience. Not simply sinners calling out other's sin.

 

[metis]

Ordaining women to Holy Orders is a red line for me. I could not remain in communion with Rome if it were it to try such a thing.

Why, may I ask?

 

[metis]

But we can judge an objective state of grave matter and thus exclude from the sacraments those who knowingly and obstinately persist in such a state.

But the Eucharist is for us sinners, so why cut them and us off? Are we and/or the priest to have a headcount at mass as to determine who are the "true believers" versus the "sinners"?

 

[Glaurung]

Then you are denying the very strength to overcome the sin. And one must be able to acknowledge the sin in good conscience. Not simply sinners calling out other's sin.

Someone who intentionally persists in an objective state of grave matter (especially if it's public) is not seeking to overcome their sin.

Why, may I ask?

Holy Orders being reserved to men is an infallible teaching of the Church. If the Church were to ordain women anyway it would disprove the Church's indefectibility. It would expose the Catholic Church as but another man made sect.

But the Eucharist is for us sinners, so why cut them and us off? Are we and/or the priest to have a headcount at mass as to determine who are the "true believers" versus the "sinners"?

To take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin. 1 Corinthians 11:29

It is an act of charity to withhold the sacrament from someone known to be in an objective state of grave matter because to allow said persons to commit sacrilege only compounds their state of sin. Go to confession and then present yourself for communion.

 

[metis]

Holy Orders being reserved to men is an infallible teaching of the Church. If the Church were to ordain women anyway it would disprove the Church's indefectibility. It would expose the Catholic Church as but another man made sect.

The probable reasons why only men could become priests fall into three areas:
1.women were mostly not literate then.
2.priests sometimes had to travel to different villages, thus a female priest could be subject to potential rape.
3.Jewish society was VERY patriarchal.

Obviously, conditions have changed over the last 2000 years, thus certain teachings can and often have changed with different conditions-- ask Galileo about that.

To take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin. 1 Corinthians 11:29

It is an act of charity to withhold the sacrament from someone known to be in an objective state of grave matter because to allow said persons to commit sacrilege only compounds their state of sin. Go to confession and then present yourself for communion.

Generally, in today's Catholicism we refer it as "serious sin", not "mortal sin".

Thus, maybe let God sort this out as Pope Francis basically has stated because we all sin. Plus, we do confess our sins at mass during the liturgy prior to taking the Eucharist.

IOW, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

[pearl]

Obviously, conditions have changed over the last 2000 years, thus certain teachings can and often have changed with different conditions-- ask Galileo about that.

I remember when John Paul II instructed the PBC to research the NT as to what evidence there was indicative of any language for or against the ordination of women. The council made the decision that the NT was neutral.
So he actually forbade any further discussion.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ordaining women to Holy Orders is a red line for me. I could not remain in communion with Rome if it were it to try such a thing.

I think the 90% of Catholics couldn't either.

 

[metis]

I remember when John Paul II instructed the PBC to research the NT as to what evidence there was indicative of any language for or against the ordination of women. The council made the decision that the NT was neutral.
So he actually forbade any further discussion.

Interesting. Do you have any links to this as I'd like to pursue it in some depth if possible?

 

[metis]

I think the 90% of Catholics couldn't either.

Change bothers many. I remember one of my Catholic neighbors who almost left the Church when the mass was changed to the use of the vernacular, and she was absolutely furious.

 

[Estro Felino]

Change bothers many. I remember one of my Catholic neighbors who almost left the Church when the mass was changed to the use of the vernacular, and she was absolutely furious.

It's not a matter of sexism. It's to underline that man and woman are different and complementary. And according to the Church teachings, men were given a certain role.

 

[metis]

It's not a matter of sexism. It's to underline that man and woman are different and complementary. And according to the Church teachings, men were given a certain role.

For reasons that are now very different, and the Church has made many theological adjustments over the years, such as priests being allowed to marry in the earlier centuries.

 

[pearl]

Interesting. Do you have any links to this as I'd like to pursue it in some depth if possible?

I will have to check some books. It was Raymond Brown who at the time had a seat on the Commission who actually gave the final vote.
For now, this is the only site I found, but it is certainly tilted towards approval,
but it does relate accurately those on the Commission at the time.
Report of the Pontifical Biblical Commission: 1975 — Women's Ordination Worldwide (womensordinationcampaign.org)

 

[metis]

I will have to check some books. It was Raymond Brown who at the time had a seat on the Commission who actually gave the final vote.
For now, this is the only site I found, but it is certainly tilted towards approval,
but it does relate accurately those on the Commission at the time.
Report of the Pontifical Biblical Commission: 1975 — Women's Ordination Worldwide (womensordinationcampaign.org)

Thanks so much for this and, btw, Fr. Brown is my favorite Catholic theologian.

 

[pearl]

Thanks so much for this and, btw, Fr. Brown is my favorite Catholic theologian.

One of mine too. He certainly did have his enemies in the Church, but much to their, chagrin he always remained within Catholic orthodoxy.

 

[metis]

One of mine too. He certainly did have his enemies in the Church, but much to their, chagrin he always remained within Catholic orthodoxy.

Yes, I'm aware that he was reprimanded at times, but that's not unusual for an intellectual such as he.

 

[syo]

my relationship with it

My relation with catholics is nonexistant.

 

[metis]

My relation with catholics is nonexistant.

By choice or chance?