Some thoughts...

[The Hammer]

After reading Serpens thread "Satanism FAQ," I figured I would procure some of the thoughts of others.
Satanism as laid out in the SB is always said to be atheistic in nature. I agree and disagree with this, since I am not an atheist and I stil consider myself a Satanist.
For starters I will quote the SB (By Anton Szandor LaVey), directly.

"It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of "God," as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best. Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him. God is, to some, benign -- to others, terrifying. To the Satanist "God" -- by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all -- is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far to impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live." -The Satanic Bible, page 40, 1st paragraph

Now to me this doesn't seem very atheistic at all. But if a person doesn't believe in an external deity and they worship only themselves then we can assume they are atheists, since I don't want to argue semantics.
Now while I agree with self-worship, I also worship Nature. And I am not Atheistic because I believe in a "god." But it is an impersonal energy, a force of nature, that encompasses both positive and negative energies and permeates through everything in the universe. Also known as Pantheism.
So the big question is does anyone here think that this makes me any more or less of a Satanist? My views are firm and will not be swayed, so don't try and change how I think, it will be futile. I am just trying to spark up some discussion, since this is sort of a slow sector of the forum.

-PEACE

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

So the big question is does anyone here think that this makes me any more or less of a Satanist? My views are firm and will not be swayed, so don't try and change how I think, it will be futile. I am just trying to spark up some discussion, since this is sort of a slow sector of the forum.

-PEACE

I don't think it makes you more or less. The problem here comes with defining Satanism. Now there are at least three or four different varieties I think, maybe more. I have only read the SB and haven't studied the others yet, but I'm sure you fit in one of the satanic paths just fine.

Another thing for intstance, I don't consider myself satanist. I am studying occultism in general right now. But I'll tell ya what, it seems outside of this forum I am the only one who doesn't see myself as studying satanism.

I go with what I learned in a religion class in college. I could dig up the quote from the text book if I really wanted to, but paraphrased it said that the religious identity of a person is identified by the individual/group. Messianic Jews for example, christians and jews can debate and call them confused christians all day long, but in the end they are still academically identified by how they identify themselves; as Jews.

So... you're cool. lol

 

[The Hammer]

I don't think it makes you more or less. The problem here comes with defining Satanism. Now there are at least three or four different varieties I think, maybe more. I have only read the SB and haven't studied the others yet, but I'm sure you fit in one of the satanic paths just fine.

Another thing for intstance, I don't consider myself satanist. I am studying occultism in general right now. But I'll tell ya what, it seems outside of this forum I am the only one who doesn't see myself as studying satanism.

I go with what I learned in a religion class in college. I could dig up the quote from the text book if I really wanted to, but paraphrased it said that the religious identity of a person is identified by the individual/group. Messianic Jews for example, christians and jews can debate and call them confused christians all day long, but in the end they are still academically identified by how they identify themselves; as Jews.

So... you're cool. lol

You have a point. I don't think it makes me any more or less either, but there are those who would disagree, lol.
Occultism, huh... It is definately an interesting study. During my inter-belief period (when I considered myself an Atheist), I studied a lot on the occult. It was eventually what led me to the SB to begin with. Although it took a couple of years to get to that point. I spent a lot of time looking into Wicca and how people performed rituals, first. I read just about anything on religion I can get my hands on now. Which is how I came up with my, different, views. I did the unthinkable, every religious persons worst nightmare, I pick and choose what I agree with from whatever I can and incorporate it into my life. Haha.
I am going to stop here, because I am gettin goff topic from my own post.:slap:

PEACE

 

[Bitterfly]

I also worship Nature.

Why do you worship something that doesn't care about you?

Appreciation and worship are two different things.

 

[The Hammer]

Why do you worship something that doesn't care about you?

Appreciation and worship are two different things.

You have a point. I was using worship as a stronger form of respect and reverance for... See what happens when I type before I think? I don't worship nature in the sense of it being a deity; I hold a large amount of respect for, highly revere, and admire nature. I enjoy its raw and exquisite power and beauty.

 

[Bitterfly]

This is going to come across as biting criticism but here goes;

That your "unshakable beliefs" seem to buckle after only a little prodding, and the tone of your post, I think that you are a pretty confused person, perhaps young as well. You can't wriggle like an eel and say, "Oops I forgot to think!" when you feel silly and uncertain. You're only kidding yourself. If you had a strong foundation and sense of yourself and what you believe, you wouldn't be second-guessing yourself or looking for other people to validate your religious identity.

Satanism is not something you can cherry pick from. You are probably identifying with completely opposing trains of thought when you try to be a religious eclectic, grabbing onto bits and pieces of concepts if they "sound good". If you want to find out if you are a Satanist, you need to do a lot of reading; read all of LaVey's books and the books listed as his sources in The Satanic Witch and The Church of Satan. Magus Gilmore's new book The Satanic Scriptures is very good as well.

If you are unable to call yourself a Satanist after reading those books (Don't decide before you've done your reading! Identifying with something you don't fully understand is silly) then at least you will have learned more about yourself and learned how to keep looking for your own answers.

 

[The Hammer]

This is going to come across as biting criticism but here goes;

That your "unshakable beliefs" seem to buckle after only a little prodding, and the tone of your post, I think that you are a pretty confused person, perhaps young as well. You can't wriggle like an eel and say, "Oops I forgot to think!" when you feel silly and uncertain. You're only kidding yourself. If you had a strong foundation and sense of yourself and what you believe, you wouldn't be second-guessing yourself or looking for other people to validate your religious identity.

Satanism is not something you can cherry pick from. You are probably identifying with completely opposing trains of thought when you try to be a religious eclectic, grabbing onto bits and pieces of concepts if they "sound good". If you want to find out if you are a Satanist, you need to do a lot of reading; read all of LaVey's books and the books listed as his sources in The Satanic Witch and The Church of Satan. Magus Gilmore's new book The Satanic Scriptures is very good as well.

If you are unable to call yourself a Satanist after reading those books (Don't decide before you've done your reading! Identifying with something you don't fully understand is silly) then at least you will have learned more about yourself and learned how to keep looking for your own answers.

To each their own, I will play the advocate for a minute and say that yes you can cherry pick from any religion you want, and call it whatever you want. You say you can't cherry pick from Satanism and I disagree, you can.
I don't, but you can. But it is just a semantics arguement, and it doesn't quite hold any weight.

I have read all (I think all) of LaVey's works, and Magus Peter Gilmore's book as well. I will make a list to make sure I got them all: The Satanic Witch, The Devil's Notebook, Satan Speaks!, The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Bible Greater Magic Rituals(I forget the exact name of it, I haven't read it in a while, and I am being to lazy to go grab it from my rack to check.), and The Satanic Scriptures. And yes, I was still able to call myself a Satanist after reading them all. Now I haven't read the books listed as his sources, yet. I plan on it, but I have 10 other books that I just ordered and I am waiting to arrive.

I don't take criticism harshly, unless it is an ad hominem attack, but then it's not criticism now is it? You didn't sway my "unshakable beliefs," you just made me reevaluate the way I explained myself. And I am not trying to find someone to validate my beliefs for me either, I was just trying to strike up conversation and discussion out of pure boredom; six weeks at sea without seeing land begins to wear on you after a while ya know?

You can still consider me young, I'm only 22 years old. But I am not confused on what I believe by any means. If you would like I can post, more in depth, what it is I believe if you are curious. I have a copy of an email I sent my gf, detailing my views to her, as she wanted to know since we will be moving in together soon.

 

[Bitterfly]

Sure that sounds like it'd be perdy cool maaaan

Did you wait to tell her you were into a kinda "spooky" religion until you knew you were moving in together? It's not the first time I've heard of Satanists having to be all sneaky with their other half

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

This is going to come across as biting criticism but here goes;

That your "unshakable beliefs" seem to buckle after only a little prodding, and the tone of your post, I think that you are a pretty confused person, perhaps young as well.

I think you just described 90% of the population. lol.

You can't wriggle like an eel and say, "Oops I forgot to think!" when you feel silly and uncertain. You're only kidding yourself. If you had a strong foundation and sense of yourself and what you believe...

Anyone who does serious study and gives serious thoguht to thier beliefs will go through a long period of this you describe. I have been there for 22 years. (I'm 22). When I have found my foundation on a belief I know it and I make it clear. When I don't have a foundation yet I make that clear as well. It can be good to stay open to reevaluating yourself though. I like the concept of remanefestation. Always growing and changing for the better.

 

[The Hammer]

Sure that sounds like it'd be perdy cool maaaan

Did you wait to tell her you were into a kinda "spooky" religion until you knew you were moving in together? It's not the first time I've heard of Satanists having to be all sneaky with their other half

No, I did not wait to tell her. She knew pretty soon after we started dating that I was a Satanist, I am open with my beliefs. But her knowledge of it was limited, and she is wary on the subject of religious discussion, due to past experience. She had religion forced on her when she was younger and doesn't like to discuss it. I convinced her to let me explain my views to her because I wanted her to understand where I am coming from, and what I believe before we move in together.

Here is my more detailed version of my views for your viewing pleasure:

I never quite had religion forced on me, but I was baptized (at 13) into something that I didn’t quite understand (Catholicism). And 3 years later turned completely away from it, and followed Buddhism for about a year (maybe more). But I started to realize that I was not Buddhist, because the ways of self-denial (Solitary lifestyle, living with only what is necessary, etc...) was not for me. But I do still meditate, which is something that I practiced while studying Buddhism. During this time I considered myself an atheist, but still went on to study many forms of belief systems, which is how I stumbled into the Pagan (aka New Age) stuff that I read so much on now. And a lot of things made sense to me. I Guess I can break down in general what it is that I call my beliefs.

Satanism is really only one part of what I believe. But I do consider myself a Satanist.

The things that I follow from Satanism are thus:
A person is their own “god,” which to me means they are the only person in control of their life, and that they need to take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences for them, be they good or bad. Self-preservation: You should never give up on life no matter what the circumstances are, be it to an attacker or a disease or something else entirely. I believe life is too precious to give up on. I abhor herd-conformity among the masses; people try to hard to fit in and it is almost funny in a sad sort of way. I say be happy with who and what you are and don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise. No one is willing to admit it, but I believe people worship their television sets. TV is the new American God and no one can even see it. I won’t go into the details why here because I am sure I have told you before. Be prideful and confident. Be proud of who and what you are (as stated above, lol), but never allow your pride to become counter-productive. Having pride is one thing, having an over inflated ego and an attitude to match because of it is another. Show respect when in another’s territory. If a guest in your territory bothers you, tell them; if they continue anyway, show him the same disrespect. Don’t make sexual advances unless given the mating signal. And don’t harm children and animals.
These are the sins of Satanism, and I do avoid these to the best of my abilities: Stupidity, Pretentiousness, Solipsism, Self-deceit, Herd Conformity, Lack of Perspective, Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies, Counterproductive Pride, and Lack of Aesthetics. If you want clarification on what any of them mean just ask, I know that a few of them aren’t self explanatory. Oh, and the last thing, indulgence not compulsion, as a rule. There is more to it, this is only a brief rundown, but it would take too long to explain via email, it is easier to just refer you to the Church of Satan website www.churchofsatan.com/home.html, and let you look around for yourself.
As for the rest of my views here is what they are (please bear with me a little while longer I know that I am rambling on):
Happiness above all else, is the most important thing in life. Do what makes you happy, and do what you can to make others happy; so long as it does not interfere with your own. I believe that life is to be lived in moderation. This applies to a wide spectrum of things, but it is a reason why I don’t have a problem with certain drugs and alcohol. I say as long as you don’t let them control your life then they are fine. I am not going to say that I haven’t gotten out of hand with them before though, but I also won’t touch them again. Well I still drink, but I won’t use drugs again. I believe that moderation is also, in a sense, a way to keep your life in balance. Too many people think of the world in dualities such as right/wrong, good/evil, Republican/Democrat, Liberal/Conservative, Democracy/Communism, environmentalist/polluter, etc. I don’t believe that either side is correct, but that there is always a third answer to be found for every problem, it is the answer that combines both of the other sides into a reasonable solution, or it is the explanation that no one wants to hear.
We should live in complete balance with nature, not against it. Nature is our friend and caretaker, for we are forever lifelong partners (Pardon the verbose writing style; I am copying this from other things that I have written.). But nature is also a foe to be reckoned with, for if treated wrongly it will surely reclaim what is its own. It provides us with everything we need to survive happy and healthily; food, clothing, shelter, medicine, etc. But if taken advantage of or abused it will turn against us; as evidenced in today’s world. What we do, positive and negative, to our natural surroundings is reciprocated towards us. Also do not kill an animal unless attacked or for food/clothing. Nature is to be respected, honored and revered above all else.
My views on “god” are a little different then most as well. I believe that what humanity has been calling “god” for so long is really an impersonal energy, not a deity. I believe this energy flows through all things in the universe, and is the energy that one calls upon during rituals, and other things that have been deemed metaphysical or supernatural. It is the basic energy that holds the entire universe together; it is not good, and it is not evil… It is a force of nature that we have yet to understand. This energy is what gives us our consciousness and self awareness, and it is what departs us when we pass away. This departure of the energy after death is what has been seen as Chi, Prana, and the Soul, among other things. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, this energy leaves us at death and is returned to nature (Nature being the universe, the stars, planets etc. as well as what is here on earth). It is what I believe gives Buddhism and other faiths the impression of a cycle of death and reincarnation. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed it has to be used again, right? I believe that the closest we ever come to “god” is in nature, away from modern society, because this is where the strongest concentration of this energy is. It is why so many Pagan/New Age religions follow a path structured around nature worship. But I do not call this energy God, I use the term “god” as a descriptor for easier understanding; I do not personally have a name for this energy, yet.

PEACE

 

[The Hammer]

Anyone who does serious study and gives serious thoguht to thier beliefs will go through a long period of this you describe. I have been there for 22 years. (I'm 22). When I have found my foundation on a belief I know it and I make it clear. When I don't have a foundation yet I make that clear as well. It can be good to stay open to reevaluating yourself though. I like the concept of remanefestation. Always growing and changing for the better.

I went through self-evaluation and re-evaluation for a good 7 years. I am pretty confident I have settled down for a while though. I probably will change in someway again, but that is just the nature of life. I read too much to have my views not change. But despite what has changed Satanism has been at the core for what I believe for at least the last 4 years.

 

[Sireal]

I think you just described 90% of the population. lol.



Anyone who does serious study and gives serious thoguht to thier beliefs will go through a long period of this you describe. I have been there for 22 years. (I'm 22). When I have found my foundation on a belief I know it and I make it clear. When I don't have a foundation yet I make that clear as well. It can be good to stay open to reevaluating yourself though. I like the concept of remanefestation. Always growing and changing for the better.

Excellent concept St. Tigeress. Remanifest is one of the Words of the Aeon of Set. As you state it is an acquisition of more articulate and accurate real knowledge of the Self and then putting that knowledge to use in ones own life in an initiatory way thereby changing the s/Self. Remanifestation occurs post Xeper-the awakening to new aspects of Self and the realization that one has Become something more...and if one keeps doing it...who know where one might end...or begin....

Sireal wishes you a Fine Evening

 

[zenzero]

Friend Hammer,

Some thoughts...

Thoughts come from the *MIND*
The mind can argue anyway it likes and still be logical.
Religion is all about the *STILL MIND*.
There there is neither god or satan and both are mind creation.
Love & rgds

 

[Sireal]

Friend Hammer,



Thoughts come from the *MIND*
The mind can argue anyway it likes and still be logical.
Religion is all about the *STILL MIND*.
There there is neither god or satan and both are mind creation.
Love & rgds

But Psyche is not Mind. What then?

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Yeah it doesn't bother me when people get "on the fence," or shake easily like it bothers others. With some things I shake, with others I don't. It is never a bad thing to be reevaluating your path and remanefesting your thoughts, whether the inspiration come from you or others. I've never seen that as sign of weakness as long as the person progresses and eventually plants thier feet.

 

[The Hammer]

But Psyche is not Mind. What then?

Well since psyche is defined as: "The mind or self as a functional entity."
Then the psyche is the mind...
But out of curiosity what is your definition of psyche? Since you say that the psyceh and the mind are seperate.

 

[The Hammer]

Friend Hammer,



Thoughts come from the *MIND*
The mind can argue anyway it likes and still be logical.
Religion is all about the *STILL MIND*.
There there is neither god or satan and both are mind creation.
Love & rgds

While I agree with you, to an extent. I would like to know what you mean by "STILL MIND" being what religion is about? It sounds to me a rather Buddhist concept. It reminds me of some Zen Meditation stuff that I looked into a while back. I am going to assume that is where you are coming from since your SN is zenzero.

 

[Erebus]

LaVeyan Satanists are very much divided in their beliefs about whether Satanism is inherently atheistic or not. In my eyes many Satanists have become dogmatic in their approach to defining what Satanism is or isn't while simultaneously forgetting the underlying principles of it.
Have a read through the book of Belial, you'll notice that LaVey remains somewhat "on the fence" about whether or not magic exists in a supernatural sense, I found his description of god to be equally ambiguous and therefore open to interpretation.
Form your own beliefs and opinions about topics such as god and the supernatural, if your beliefs improve your life then keep them and ignore anybody who tells you that you are not a "proper" Satanist for holding them. People will inevitably use TSB in different ways, some people need a concrete religion to follow and will believe in TSB to the letter, others will accept the basic Satanic doctrine but will form their own opinions about everything else. Neither approach is "wrong" so long as it works for you as an individual.

 

[The Hammer]

LaVeyan Satanists are very much divided in their beliefs about whether Satanism is inherently atheistic or not. In my eyes many Satanists have become dogmatic in their approach to defining what Satanism is or isn't while simultaneously forgetting the underlying principles of it.
Have a read through the book of Belial, you'll notice that LaVey remains somewhat "on the fence" about whether or not magic exists in a supernatural sense, I found his description of god to be equally ambiguous and therefore open to interpretation.
Form your own beliefs and opinions about topics such as god and the supernatural, if your beliefs improve your life then keep them and ignore anybody who tells you that you are not a "proper" Satanist for holding them. People will inevitably use TSB in different ways, some people need a concrete religion to follow and will believe in TSB to the letter, others will accept the basic Satanic doctrine but will form their own opinions about everything else. Neither approach is "wrong" so long as it works for you as an individual.

Very much my own opinion as well. I have a less structured and more supernatural view of Satanism than most. I merely used this topic to try and get more people active in this side of the religious forums; it is fairly slow here.
It seems to have worked to an extent, there are at least some people posting in this topic.