Southern Baptist Convention says "no" to women pastors

[DNB]

And you are also not getting the message. You claim that all humans are spiritual -- and the actual evidence you personally possess is that you are "spiritual." But here's a challenge. Define "spiritual." What it actually means, how it can be identified, how you can tell when it is not present.

Let me provide a little book that might help you undestand, by the French philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville, called "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality." I know it quite well, by the way. (I won't provide a link, because you'll suppose I've chosen a supportive source.)

Now, the actual challenge is this: demonstrate how your view of "spirituality" must include the magic of a God or gods, and why Comte-Sponville's view of a godless spirituality must therefore be wrong.

See -- the real reason you are getting frustrated here is very simple: you have accepted as axiomatic that there is only one correct world-view -- and it is, by your own definition, your world-view. So when anybody disagrees with you, rather than look at why they disagree, you just punch back with another left-hook-spiritual to the jaw, and hope they'll fall to the mat.

Guess what -- the count hasn't even gotten to 1 yet.

Just the fact that you have to ask the question, after I've explained it fifty times, underscores my accusations against the atheists - blind as bats.
Spirituality: all men are capable of, and 90% have, worshipped and meditated upon the transcendent, the non secular. No other creature on earth does this, or can do this,

 

[DNB]

I don't understand the question. Could you elaborate?

No.

You're in control of your own feelings. Not me.

Well, I am feeling profoundly regretful right now.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Just the fact that you have to ask the question, after I've explained it fifty times, underscores my accusations against the atheists - blind as bats.
Spirituality: all men are capable of, and 90% have, worshipped and meditated upon the transcendent, the non secular. No other creature on earth does this, or can do this,

Blind as bats is something of an insult. How about I retort with "gullible as morons?"

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just the fact that you have to ask the question, after I've explained it fifty times, underscores my accusations against the atheists - blind as bats.
Spirituality: all men are capable of, and 90% have, worshipped and meditated upon the transcendent, the non secular. No other creature on earth does this, or can do this,

That is just a "So what?" argument. A So what argument is one that is so pointless that a simple "So what?" refutes it.

 

[DNB]

Blind as bats is something of an insult. How about I retort with "gullible as morons?"

How about you address my fifty-first response to your question?

BTW, you're getting closer to the point, finally - if there is no God, 'gullible as morons' is an understatement.

 

[DNB]

That is just a "So what?" argument. A So what argument is one that is so pointless that a simple "So what?" refutes it.

You're on my mental ignore list, like seriously.
Mind you, you always have been, but you just refreshed my memory.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Blind as bats is something of an insult. How about I retort with "gullible as morons?"

No, I believe you are able to rise above juvenile name-calling and false accusations as well as demonstrate a more mature character.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Men are spiritual - it manifests itself in many forms. Are you moral, then you're spiritual.

When the theist uses the word spiritual, he either means having to do with spirits like gods and angels, or he's placing fanciful speculation in the unfalsifiable on an even or greater footing with critical thought and empiricism, which he scoffingly calls materialistic, myopic, and scientism.

I will gladly engage you on any matter, IANS, provided you could at least claim that man is not comprised of solely physical matter, but has a dimension within him that transcends the secular.

My position is that reality (nature) is physical. It comprises energy, matter (and form), force, space, and time. Man. like everything else, is made of these. Everything that exists does so in space and time and interacts with other existent things, and that to say that something is undetectable by all detectors in all times and places is to call it nonexistent.

I can't get past first base with you people. For me to attempt to establish a predicate that all humans are spiritual creatures, not one of you seem to comprehend what that means?

How about you start by giving a good of definition of how you mean the word spiritual? I ask because I don't believe that most people using the word mean anything more specific than what I've described, and you're looking for how to reach the skeptic. This is how. Be clear. Support your claims with evidence where you can. Make sound arguments and offer rebuttal, by which I mean falsifying counterarguments, not mere dissent with handwaving, ad hominem, or what you believe instead without rebuttal.

Let you offer mine. Spiritual for me refers to the euphoric feeling of belonging and connectedness, oven accompanied by a sense of mystery, awe, and gratitude. It's antithesis is a sense of alienation (source: pink Floyd*). I can occur while gazing mindfully at the night sky, when a drop of starlight impacts the retina and contemplates how far it has come over how long and how we are related to it being made of stardust. It comes when transported by a passage of music, a stunning sunset, or during a good belly laugh. I can occur while gardening mindfully as one contemplates the connections between the flowers, pollinators, and birds and one's own connection to them. All is well in the world during these moments.

That's the spiritual experience - one I once mistook for the presence of the Holy Spirit thanks to a charismatic pastor, my first, who could make the room have this experience. It's an endogenous experience generated de novo in the brain frequently mistaken as something external being experienced.

=====

* These are all the opposite of the spiritual experience, of connectedness and belonging:
[1]
You are only coming through in waves
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying
When I was a child I had a fever
My hands felt just like two balloons
Now I've got that feeling once again
I can't explain you would not understand
This is not how I am

[2]
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say

[3]
How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
What have we found?
The same old fears
Wish you were here

I am feeling profoundly regretful right now.

You've chosen to play apologist to a panel of critical thinkers. That's got to be unpleasant. They're only interested in evidence and sound argument, and you offer vague, unevidenced ideas, like whatever spiritual means to you.

Yes, absolutely exasperated with the dullness, ... and especially, the defiance!

Defiance? To your apologetics? Maybe this isn't the right activity for you. The fact that you call it defiance and that it exasperates you is what I was referring to earlier - the asymmetry between the emotional apologist and the staid demeanor of the critical thinker. I never get exasperated or emotional when posting, because why would I? Because you disagree? I don't mind that. Because I often can't get through? Why would that anger or frustrate me? I don't expect to be understood by everybody, especially when discussing philosophical and scientific matters with the faithful as we do here.

I am told by atheists that religion is merely a concession in order to keep society from devolving into chaos.

That's not my take. Religion began from the bottom with people trying to understand and control their world, and so they invented gods, which appears to be a nearly universal human activity, and tried to appease them. The comes the priesthood to exploit that proclivity. You and I have discussed this before:

"Even today, being clergy is a great gig. No manual labor or hot sun. No education or training necessary if you want to open your own church. No government oversight. No expensive equipment needed. People bring you money every week to do nothing except tell them how to live. Instant respect and social status, although not so much as before."

How do you explain the billions of dollars spent on religious edifices, religious education, religious literature

This was also asked and answered in that same thread and post. Church is big business: "There's a church on every corner along with a bank, a gas station, and a fast food restaurant, and they're all there for the same reason. The marketing begins at the point of a sword with Roman legions, crusaders, and conquistadores and continues to this day with free Bibles in every hotel room and now Superbowl ads for Jesus."

How do you explain men going to the flames for their religious beliefs, the factions and dissentions within families, the honour killings, the sacrifices, the wars, etc, all in the name of religion?

How is that explained? People sometimes die for their mistaken beliefs, especially when believed fervently and zealously - like the people at Waco or the Heaven's Gate cult. Likewise with the killing and cruelty. That's to be expected in religions that define morality in terms of what they claim a god said and did.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

Does this sound like a fairy tale in men's minds, simply to stabilize society?

It sounds very human.

 

[DNB]

When the theist uses the word spiritual, he either means having to do with spirits like gods and angels, or he's placing fanciful speculation in the unfalsifiable on an even or greater footing with critical thought and empiricism, which he scoffingly calls materialistic, myopic, and scientism.

My position is that reality (nature) is physical. It comprises energy, matter (and form), force, space, and time. Man. like everything else, is made of these. Everything that exists does so in space and time and interacts with other existent things, and that to say that something is undetectable by all detectors in all times and places is to call it nonexistent.

How about you start by giving a good of definition of how you mean the word spiritual? I ask because I don't believe that most people using the word mean anything more specific than what I've described, and you're looking for how to reach the skeptic. This is how. Be clear. Support your claims with evidence where you can. Make sound arguments and offer rebuttal, by which I mean falsifying counterarguments, not mere dissent with handwaving, ad hominem, or what you believe instead without rebuttal.

Let you offer mine. Spiritual for me refers to the euphoric feeling of belonging and connectedness, oven accompanied by a sense of mystery, awe, and gratitude. It's antithesis is a sense of alienation (source: pink Floyd*). I can occur while gazing mindfully at the night sky, when a drop of starlight impacts the retina and contemplates how far it has come over how long and how we are related to it being made of stardust. It comes when transported by a passage of music, a stunning sunset, or during a good belly laugh. I can occur while gardening mindfully as one contemplates the connections between the flowers, pollinators, and birds and one's own connection to them. All is well in the world during these moments.

That's the spiritual experience - one I once mistook for the presence of the Holy Spirit thanks to a charismatic pastor, my first, who could make the room have this experience. It's an endogenous experience generated de novo in the brain frequently mistaken as something external being experienced.

=====

* These are all the opposite of the spiritual experience, of connectedness and belonging:
[1]
You are only coming through in waves
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying
When I was a child I had a fever
My hands felt just like two balloons
Now I've got that feeling once again
I can't explain you would not understand
This is not how I am

[2]
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say

[3]
How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
What have we found?
The same old fears
Wish you were here

You've chosen to play apologist to a panel of critical thinkers. That's got to be unpleasant. They're only interested in evidence and sound argument, and you offer vague, unevidenced ideas, like whatever spiritual means to you.

Defiance? To your apologetics? Maybe this isn't the right activity for you. The fact that you call it defiance and that it exasperates you is what I was referring to earlier - the asymmetry between the emotional apologist and the staid demeanor of the critical thinker. I never get exasperated or emotional when posting, because why would I? Because you disagree? I don't mind that. Because I often can't get through? Why would that anger or frustrate me? I don't expect to be understood by everybody, especially when discussing philosophical and scientific matters with the faithful as we do here.

That's not my take. Religion began from the bottom with people trying to understand and control their world, and so they invented gods, which appears to be a nearly universal human activity, and tried to appease them. The comes the priesthood to exploit that proclivity. You and I have discussed this before:

"Even today, being clergy is a great gig. No manual labor or hot sun. No education or training necessary if you want to open your own church. No government oversight. No expensive equipment needed. People bring you money every week to do nothing except tell them how to live. Instant respect and social status, although not so much as before."

This was also asked and answered in that same thread and post. Church is big business: "There's a church on every corner along with a bank, a gas station, and a fast food restaurant, and they're all there for the same reason. The marketing begins at the point of a sword with Roman legions, crusaders, and conquistadores and continues to this day with free Bibles in every hotel room and now Superbowl ads for Jesus."

How is that explained? People sometimes die for their mistaken beliefs, especially when believed fervently and zealously - like the people at Waco or the Heaven's Gate cult. Likewise with the killing and cruelty. That's to be expected in religions that define morality in terms of what they claim a god said and did.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

It sounds very human.

Man's mind is not preoccupied with the concern for survival, like every other creature on this planet.
There are spiritual factors that determine and dictate the majority of his actions, and these motives are what we refer to as the spiritual warfare that takes place in man's mind.

Whether a man feels empathy, antipathy or apathy towards another person's demise or situation, reflects where his heart is at. And it is this disposition that demonstrates his spiritual state.

Men do not always take positions of power or leadership for all the correct reason - competence and diligence do not form the basis of their decision. And it is the same catalyst that determines all other choices within their lives.
Pragmatism and practicality is not the impetus of man's goals and desires, it is rather the state of his heart - whether he chooses to be ambitious, greedy, ruthless and selfish, or altruistic, compassionate, hard-working, and make sacrifices.

This spirit within man exists in no other creatures on the planet.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No.

Well, I am feeling profoundly regretful right now.

Well, next time you're wondering why people don't want to engage with you ..... think about this interaction. I gave you a shot. And what did you come back with? Same old handwaving and juvenile name calling. That's not a conversation.

 

[DNB]

Well, next time you're wondering why people don't want to engage with you ..... think about this interaction. I gave you a shot. And what did you come back with? Same old handwaving and juvenile name calling. That's not a conversation.

Who gave who a shot???

 

[SkepticThinker]

Who gave who a shot???

Still nothing. :yawn:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When the theist uses the word spiritual, he either means having to do with spirits like gods and angels, or he's placing fanciful speculation in the unfalsifiable on an even or greater footing with critical thought and empiricism, which he scoffingly calls materialistic, myopic, and scientism.

I consider it to be one of dirtiest traits of Christians, and this that so very many of them can't keep their hands to themselves and claim things that don't belong to them, or place some fancifully twisted qualifer to say "hey, you're one of us too."
Many atheists do that irritating and poorly thought out, monotheist-centric garbage of "we're all atheists, I just believe in one less god than you," but that's not been an issue that wars and massacres have centered around.