Southern Baptist V JW's debate on Hell

[Hockeycowboy]

That's already been brought up.
As for killing, Luke 19 presents a parable that features a character that bears stark resemblance to Christ. And has certainly been used to justify slaying "those who don't want Christ to reign over them." Which brings into question given Jesus' parables often portrayed characters who exhibit characteristics he approved of, such as the Good Samaritan, how do you know which parables to act out and which ones, if any, do you not act out? Are Christians supposed to literally hate their family members to follow Christ, or is that just one of those metaphors? The parable of Pearls and Hidden Treasure reflects upon Jesus' teaching to sell all your stuff and give the money to the poor (as the merchant found one good pearl and sold the rest). But do you literally pluck your eye out when it offends you? The Parable of the Sower reflects upon being "fishermen of men." But shouldn't you love god--the highest commandment--to live up to every last dot and tittle of the laws and prophets (which includes death for apostates)?

I think your deflecting. Question: You see my point but you really just don’t want to consider it, right?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Oh....so they only did it to get money?

Rather the currency they wanted, which was butts in seats? No. In all those years I never directly saw those methods actually lead to meeting attendance. The most successful witnesses in that category were ones that engaged their community in other ways. Like through community service.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Rather the currency they wanted, which was butts in seats? No. In all those years I never directly saw those methods actually lead to meeting attendance. The most successful witnesses in that category were ones that engaged their community in other ways. Like through community service.

What do JW’s get from “butts in seats”? Is there money there, to get out of “contribution plates” passed around?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What do JW’s get from “butts in seats”? Is there money there, to get out of “contribution plates” passed around?

Accolades from their fellow witnesses mostly. Successful pioneers get return visits, bible studies and meeting attendances. All of which is recorded in their logs. Or at least was when I was around.
There doesn't have to be money involved for solicitation.
Although donation requests are certainly part of the door to door pitch and every kingdom hall I've ever been to has a visible donation box.

But that's rather besides the point of my post which you replied to one sentence of.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Accolades from their fellow witnesses mostly. Successful pioneers get return visits, bible studies and meeting attendances. All of which is recorded in their logs. Or at least was when I was around.
There doesn't have to be money involved for solicitation.
Although donation requests are certainly part of the door to door pitch and every kingdom hall I've ever been to has a visible donation box.

But that's rather besides the point of my post which you replied to one sentence of.

Yes...what was it? Oh yeah, that we’d only ‘put a religious tract on a bleeding body.’

I call that “lying”. Doesn’t give the rest of your post much credibility.

“Accolades”, lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think your deflecting. Question: You see my point but you really just don’t want to consider it, right?

Thus far, it has been my question that has went unconsidered. As I've said many times already, all these different denominations do the same thing, which is have their own interpretation of the the Bible and providing their own handful or so of verses to support their position. We even reached the point where everyone was saying you can tell a Christian by their fruits being used to justify their position and dismiss the other. But it goes unanswered how anyone has it right. A "conclusion" of judging by fruits only leads us back to step one.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Thus far, it has been my question that has went unconsidered.

We even reached the point where everyone was saying you can tell a Christian by their fruits being used to justify their position and dismiss the other. But it goes unanswered how anyone has it right. A "conclusion" of judging by fruits only leads us back to step one.

“Everyone”? Who?
Anyone who does, should be questioned as to how they meet Christ’s commands.

First of all, we should find out - from the Scriptures, of course - ‘What are Christ’s commands?” (I’ve only found two actual commands.)

And, “Is there something that he said would ID his followers as a group?” Yes, it’s the quality of love...and to be an identifier, it must be unique to the world, don’t you think?

In my search, I’ve only found *one group* fitting these categories.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yes...what was it? Oh yeah, that we’d only ‘put a religious tract on a bleeding body.’

I call that “lying”. Doesn’t give the rest of your post much credibility.

“Accolades”, lol.

For a religious person you don't really understand analogies very well. And yes, JWs, as I mentioned, do the smallest amount of community service, charity, or actually helping other people besides trying to get them to join the club. It's one of the reasons I wish they would lose their tax exempt status. They believe they're doing the most important job in the world, but all it amounts to is leaving religious tracts on the dying body of those seriously struggling.

 

[Oeste]

I've been with a giving garden and food bank for two years, and volunteer for a suicide hotline. Also various political movements for aid programs which I doubt you'll care about

Oh....so they only did it to get money?

I think your deflecting. Question: You see her point but you really just don’t want to consider it, right?

That’s why Jesus said to “look at their fruitage” - Matthew 7 - not necessarily what they teach (since there are so many.)
So inform me...where does Christ tell his followers to kill their brothers?

There must be a Scripture for that, huh?

Apparently, as some have even allowed their children to bleed out on operating room tables or refuse blood transfusions. But as @Shadow Wolf was pointing out, it's all in the interpretation which for some groups appears strangely biased to how they like to point their fingers.

And, “Is there something that he said would ID his followers as a group?” Yes, it’s the quality of love...and to be an identifier, it must be unique to the world, don’t you think?

In my search, I’ve only found *one group* fitting these categories.

Vanity and hubris are not the categories we should look for. It's easy to love oneself or group.

You have neighbors who, as members of the armed forces, died, lost a spouse, son or daughter for your right to go door to door, point a finger, and leave leaflets that chide them for their sacrifice. Even when you do so, they leave no leaflet on your door or their neighbor's chiding you in return.

Others serve as police officers so that when you return home no one breaks into your house, disturbs your sleep, or accosts you while you ride the subway. They respond when you are threatened or call for help even though your members are not willing to do the same.

We are primarily interested in feeding people spiritually, even Jesus said that. (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4), but we also are known to help others during distressing events, caused by weather, etc

Then your Organization really needs to stop those "God is about to kill those Christians" themed publications, otherwise JW's, during a flood or earthquake, are not going to know if it's God invoking Armageddon or simply a natural disaster or calamity.

Wouldn't Jehovah be upset if you run out of your house, trying to save a Christian your publication just told you he wants to kill? Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution, and let the man fall into the crevice opening up in the middle of the street?

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Perhaps wait for an "Organizational response"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've been with a giving garden and food bank for two years, and volunteer for a suicide hotline. Also various political movements for aid programs which I doubt you'll care about

It was pretty nice getting to California and finding something to volunteer for that I care enough about to volunteer for.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

For a religious person you don't really understand analogies very well. And yes, JWs, as I mentioned, do the smallest amount of community service, charity, or actually helping other people besides trying to get them to join the club. It's one of the reasons I wish they would lose their tax exempt status. They believe they're doing the most important job in the world, but all it amounts to is leaving religious tracts on the dying body of those seriously struggling.

"Go, therefore, and make disciples.....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." -- Jesus' words @ Matthew 28:19-20.


Why? What made Jesus say this was so important that he put it as a command?

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ."
-- Jesus' prayer to Jehovah @ John 17:3.

It's great that people know Jesus is their Savior, unfortunately most don't know who the True God is: his Father (John 17:20). But that is imperative for eternal life!

Sorry you had a bad experience (Satan uses others' actions to test us), but that just reflects on imperfect people, not on Jehovah's teachings...they are perfect (Psalms 19:7); we are not Romans 3:23).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I think your deflecting. Question: You see her point but you really just don’t want to consider it, right?



Apparently, as some have even allowed their children to bleed out on operating room tables or refuse blood transfusions. But as @Shadow Wolf was pointing out, it's all in the interpretation which for some groups appears strangely biased to how they like to point their fingers.



Vanity and hubris are not the categories we should look for. It's easy to love oneself or group.

You have neighbors who, as members of the armed forces, died, lost a spouse, son or daughter for your right to go door to door, point a finger, and leave leaflets that chide them for their sacrifice. Even when you do so, they leave no leaflet on your door or their neighbor's chiding you in return.

Others serve as police officers so that when you return home no one breaks into your house, disturbs your sleep, or accosts you while you ride the subway. They respond when you are threatened or call for help even though your members are not willing to do the same.



Then your Organization really needs to stop those "God is about to kill those Christians" themed publications, otherwise JW's, during a flood or earthquake, are not going to know if it's God invoking Armageddon or simply a natural disaster or calamity.

Wouldn't Jehovah be upset if you run out of your house, trying to save a Christian your publication just told you he wants to kill? Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution, and let the man fall into the crevice opening up in the middle of the street?

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Perhaps wait for an "Organizational response"?

So, @Oeste, do you go out regularly to teach people God's Word?

Who would you be willing to kill in conflict? Me?? @Shadow Wolf?? I mean, if your government tells you to do it...I'd like to know your response, and what support you'd receive (if any)?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who would you be willing to kill in conflict? Me?? @Shadow Wolf?? I mean, if your government tells you to do it...I'd like to know your response, and what support you'd receive (if any)?

You don't find that immaturely extreme? Who he would rather kill? Where (and how) did you make such a violent leap to create this scenario?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You don't find that immaturely extreme? Who he would rather kill? Where (and how) did you make such a violent leap to create this scenario?

How many professed Christians have defied their governments in refusing to kill others, choosing to obey Christ instead??

Yes, killing is extreme, but that too doesn't impede professed Christian groups from joining the world in this way!

What do you think I was talking about? How do you define love, wherein it could include killing your brother? Or your enemy?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

"Go, therefore, and make disciples.....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." -- Jesus' words @ Matthew 28:19-20.


Why? What made Jesus say this was so important that he put it as a command?

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ."
-- Jesus' prayer to Jehovah @ John 17:3.

It's great that people know Jesus is their Savior, unfortunately most don't know who the True God is: his Father (John 17:20). But that is imperative for eternal life!

Sorry you had a bad experience (Satan uses others' actions to test us), but that just reflects on imperfect people, not on Jehovah's teachings...they are perfect (Psalms 19:7); we are not Romans 3:23).

Actions speak louder than words. Once again, I'd rather have one Baptist around working to uplift people out of their dire situation than ten JW telling them the best thing they can do is become a JW. It's gross, and I doubt Jesus would have approved.

Don't stop at words. Literally feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick. I respect and am inclined to stick around people who do a lot more.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Don't stop at words. Literally feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick. I respect and am inclined to stick around people who do a lot more.

Those things are just all parables, not meant to be taken literally, and isn't actually what Jesus meant.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'd rather have one Baptist around working to uplift people out of their dire situation than ten JW telling them the best thing they can do is become a JW.

That's all we do, huh?!?!

I can only deduce that in 10 years, you never bothered to learn anything, wow, that's a massive waste of time! Especially with so much information and spiritual gems that are provided through the organization for Jehovah's people!

To not avail yourself of the wisdom you had at your fingertips.... you must have been young, and without proper guidance.

Sad.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That's all we do, huh?!?!

I can only deduce that in 10 years, you never bothered to learn anything, wow, that's a massive waste of time! Especially with so much information and spiritual gems that are provided through the organization for Jehovah's people!

To not avail yourself of the wisdom you had at your fingertips.... you must have been young, and without proper guidance.

Sad.

And this, among other reasons, is why I left. And why I never saw this tactic work. And why the church is shrinking.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Those things are just all parables, not meant to be taken literally, and isn't actually what Jesus meant.

Apparently. Sheesh.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And this, among other reasons, is why I left. And why I never saw this tactic work. And why the church is shrinking.

Actually, you're wrong, we are growing!