"Sovereign citizens" run afoul of the law

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I must have spent about 2 hours last night watching numerous "sovereign citizen" videos and specifically how they interacted with police during ordinary traffic stops. It was mesmerizing because the unfortunates involved had caused themselves a huge amount of duress due to an extremely superficial understanding of law and the power of authorized police officers.

Video after video, person after person, sounded like they were quoting from the same book. They all used the same weird terms (instead of "driving", they were "traveling"). Inevitably these went into similar cases before judges where the special snowflakes tried this song and dance on a judge. Let's say that, though extremely polite, strangely so, in fact, the judges were not swayed by their excuse for critical legal thought. And yes, all the folks I saw chose to represent themselves. Like, what could possibly go wrong in a court of law representing yourself?

I have selected 2 videos. The 1st is an extreme little female who is downright perky, at first... till she gets herself arrested. Her raving gives the word delusional new emphasis and meaning. The 2nd video is of some guy called Mike the Cop and he gives his 2 cents on the "sovereign citizen" phenomena.

Just when you thought you had seen and heard everything too.

WARNING!!! During her meltdown she begins swearing loudly, hysterically and repeatedly. In contrast, the police officer is so calm, cool and collected that it is amazing.

Me? I would be pistol whipping these folks much sooner, LOL. (No, you probably don't want me as a cop.)

The amusing and informative Mike the Cop explanation

My question is mainly, "Where on earth are these people getting the idea that this sort of action is reasonable or that it is a good idea to obstruct police in this way?"

As I said, they all chant the same drivel. My personal favorite is telling the police, "I do not consent!"
Yep, they really care if you want to be searched. LOL.


Any comments? @Revoltingest @Nous

And here I though my first thread of the New Year was going to be on Intersectionality. Jeeez. The plans of mice and er, um, mice.

But... but... gold fringing on flags!

Seriously though, the couple of times I've encountered actual real life sovereign citrizens, I ask them to show me where the laws they are invoking are written down, not just parrot their learned magic phrases, but actually show me or give a citation that can be looked up, and this invariably stumps them.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Sounds like the sort who try to establish "micronations": Category:Micronations - Wikipedia

Most people who start micronations do so for fun, and don't take themselves particularly seriously. There are exceptions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But... but... gold fringing on flags!

Seriously though, the couple of times I've encountered actual real life sovereign citrizens, I ask them to show me where the laws they are invoking are written down, not just parrot their learned magic phrases, but actually show me or give a citation that can be looked up, and this invariably stumps them.

Your post led to this site, one worthy of Sheldon Cooper of the The Big Bang Theory:

What's up with gold fringe on flags? - Fun Flag Facts

And damn the OP for starting a brand new guilty pleasure of mine.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most people who start micronations do so for fun, and don't take themselves particularly seriously. There are exceptions.

In high school, one of my friends declared his car a sovereign nation.

His nation had only two laws:

- no shoes without socks
- if you burp, you have to say what it tasted like

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

In high school, one of my friends declared his car a sovereign nation.

His nation had only two laws:

- no shoes without socks
- if you burp, you have to say what it tasted like

Lonely planet did a micronations guide a few years back. There was a guy in it who declared his carava a micronation, and some high schoolers who formed a micronation government without any actual territory.

I myself am a proud citizen of Rheinbergen Fürstentum Rheinbergen - Welcome to Rheinbergen

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lonely planet did a micronations guide a few years back. There was a guy in it who declared his carava a micronation, and some high schoolers who formed a micronation government without any actual territory.

I myself am a proud citizen of Rheinbergen Fürstentum Rheinbergen - Welcome to Rheinbergen

I also heard about some people in Rome who declared their church and its grounds a micronation.

Vatican City - Wikipedia

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I also heard about some people in Rome who declared their church and its grounds a micronation.

Vatican City - Wikipedia

Vatican City is fairly small, but it wasn't self declared, and it is internationally recognized.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Vatican City is fairly small, but it wasn't self declared, and it is internationally recognized.

I guess I should've included some sort of smilie to indicate it was a joke.

 

[Mister Emu]

AM I BEING DETAINED?

I've always assumed it is a performance protest against the ever expanding power of the state, could be wrong. Seems a rather fruitless and potentially harmful way of going about it though.

 

[Revoltingest]

AM I BEING DETAINED?

I've always assumed it is a performance protest against the ever expanding power of the state, could be wrong. Seems a rather fruitless and potentially harmful way of going about it though.

It's fruitful if one gets satisfaction from being a martyr.

 

[Stevicus]

Your post led to this site, one worthy of Sheldon Cooper of the The Big Bang Theory:

What's up with gold fringe on flags? - Fun Flag Facts

And damn the OP for starting a brand new guilty pleasure of mine.

I thought about this, but while the arguments make sense, I remember reading about a case where a "sovereign citizen" was in court and requested that the judge replace the flag with gold fringe and put in a flag without gold fringe. The judge apparently got rather testy about it and adamantly refused to switch the flags. It seems to me that if it has no legal basis, why not just switch the flag? What's the big deal?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I thought about this, but while the arguments make sense, I remember reading about a case where a "sovereign citizen" was in court and requested that the judge replace the flag with gold fringe and put in a flag without gold fringe. The judge apparently got rather testy about it and adamantly refused to switch the flags. It seems to me that if it has no legal basis, why not just switch the flag? What's the big deal?

Do you think the judge has a supply of flags without fringes back in his chambers? It's a ridiculous request, and should have been quietly and politely refused. If the sovereign citizen pressed the matter, the judge could always use the quite legal option of citing them for contempt of court (which could include fines and/or jail time), or of issuing summary judgment in their case.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you think the judge has a supply of flags without fringes back in his chambers? It's a ridiculous request, and should have been quietly and politely refused. If the sovereign citizen pressed the matter, the judge could always use the quite legal option of citing them for contempt of court (which could include fines and/or jail time), or of issuing summary judgment in their case.

Indeed, the judge (and to a lesser extent, police officers) could use these occasions as "teaching moments".

 

[Stevicus]

Do you think the judge has a supply of flags without fringes back in his chambers? It's a ridiculous request, and should have been quietly and politely refused. If the sovereign citizen pressed the matter, the judge could always use the quite legal option of citing them for contempt of court (which could include fines and/or jail time), or of issuing summary judgment in their case.

Yeah, although it would easily disprove any conspiracy theories about the gold fringe if they did. Again, if it doesn't mean anything, then there's no reason not to do it. It should be easy enough to find a flag without gold fringes. It's not as if they don't exist.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yeah, although it would easily disprove any conspiracy theories about the gold fringe if they did. Again, if it doesn't mean anything, then there's no reason not to do it. It should be easy enough to find a flag without gold fringes. It's not as if they don't exist.

Except that citizens and their elected officials seem to like gold-bordered flags in public offices, and flag manufacturers and retailers are more than glad to provide gold-fringed flags for anyone silly enough to want to buy them. In all my years, I can't recall a single school, other local government, city, county, state or federal office that does not have gold-fringed flags.

I recall while covering a local city council meeting, in a small rural community--to call it conservative would an understatement--a controversy had arisen because the council wanted to save a few bucks by buying simple, unbordered flags...and ended up with a near riot on their hands. Needless to say, the council decided it was in their best interest to spend a few bucks more for the THREE indoor display flags they needed--as well as buy some new very high quality flags for external display (increased from three to five, including new poles and display lighting)...

This was the same council that another time spent three hours (out of a marathon five hour meeting) discussing why they needed to buy a new truck for the city maintenance department...why couldn't they just keep ordering new parts for the 27 year old truck and have the local garage install them? Literally. Its was costing them many thousands of dollars a year in lost work time, and increasing costs to buy and install the parts on a vehicle that was held together with bailing wire and I kid you not, duct tape, and most of the time, could not be convinced to start or stay running at all. The city treasurer had to go over, three times during the meeting, how much it was costing and how much they would save by deep-sixing the 1957 model (that they had bought used from the state DOT sometime in the 1960s) and buying a new one. They finally approved it on a vote of 4-3.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, although it would easily disprove any conspiracy theories about the gold fringe if they did. Again, if it doesn't mean anything, then there's no reason not to do it. It should be easy enough to find a flag without gold fringes. It's not as if they don't exist.

The man being charged could have bought one without fringe of the same size and quality as those in the courtroom. The judges does not need to meet ridiculous demands.

 

[Stevicus]

Except that citizens and their elected officials seem to like gold-bordered flags in public offices, and flag manufacturers and retailers are more than glad to provide gold-fringed flags for anyone silly enough to want to buy them. In all my years, I can't recall a single school, other local government, city, county, state or federal office that does not have gold-fringed flags.

I've seen such flags quite often, although I've rarely encountered anyone who comments on them (other than "sovereign citizens") or cares one way or the other. It shouldn't really matter; a flag is a flag.

I recall while covering a local city council meeting, in a small rural community--to call it conservative would an understatement--a controversy had arisen because the council wanted to save a few bucks by buying simple, unbordered flags...and ended up with a near riot on their hands.

That seems really weird to me; even weirder than "sovereign citizens." Why should anyone care? I can see people getting upset over burning or defacing the flag, but I can't imagine why a gold fringe would really mean that much to anyone that they would get that upset if a flag didn't have gold fringe. From what I'm able to gather, it's just a superficial affectation which has no meaning whatsoever. It's not even actually a recognized part of the flag. We say "hooray for the red, white, and blue, not the red, white, blue, and yellow."

 

[Stevicus]

The man being charged could have bought one without fringe of the same size and quality as those in the courtroom. The judges does not need to meet ridiculous demands.

Of course not, but if it's no big deal either way, then there'd be no reason for any judges to make a fuss about it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I thought about this, but while the arguments make sense, I remember reading about a case where a "sovereign citizen" was in court and requested that the judge replace the flag with gold fringe and put in a flag without gold fringe. The judge apparently got rather testy about it and adamantly refused to switch the flags. It seems to me that if it has no legal basis, why not just switch the flag? What's the big deal?

And what next? Change the colour of the carpet? Why not if it's not legally important?

 

[Stevicus]

And what next? Change the colour of the carpet? Why not if it's not legally important?

But what difference should it make, especially if it's not legally important?