Spain -Al Andalus

[TashaN]

I came across an interesting concept they had back then called "La Convivencia" and it means "The Coexistence" in Spanish.

a Convivencia ("the Coexistence") is a term used to describe the situation in Spanish history from about 711 to 1492 – concurrent with the Reconquista ("Reconquest") – when Jews, Muslims, and Catholics in Spain lived in relative peace together within the different kingdoms (during the same time, however, the Christian push to the south into Moorish land was ongoing). The phase often refers to the interplay of cultural ideas between the three groups, and ideas of religious tolerance. Toledo was a center of la Convivencia.

From: La Convivencia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Convivencia – the Spanish word for living together harmoniously. It’s also the term used to describe the co-existence of different faiths in medieval Spain. For the Christians, Moors (Moslems)and Jews who had to do the co-existing, the code of convivencia was about tolerance. In places like Toledo, Córdoba and Granada it meant more than that: mutual respect and an appreciation of science and scholarship created towns which were more agreeable to live in than medieval Paris or London.

Spain, Al-Andalus, was under Moslem rule for more than 700 years, during which time religious toleration ebbed and flowed between the opposing poles of admiration and hostility. A process of Christian reconquista gradually gathered speed over centuries until Fernando and Isabel, los Reyes Católicos, initiated a ruthless programme of ethnic cleansing. This began by making everyday life difficult for Moors and Jews and culminated in forced conversions to Christianity and exile.

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Sensual and beguiling these songs may be, but it would be naïve and dangerous to romanticise convivencia. These days, everyone you talk to in Spain has a different take on it. For some it represents an agreeable exchange of cultura y gastronomía, others see it as a sort of apartheid. One thing is clear: it was a concept of its time, nothing to do with today’s well-meaning, amorphous jargon about multiculturalism or celebrating diversity. By the time most of this music was written, convivencia was waning, and as several of the lyrics make clear, Moors (Muslims) and Christians fought each other valiantly and fiercely. But it’s encouraging to be reminded of how hard they also tried to get on together, each tolerating, respecting and sometimes enjoying each other’s traditions. Convivencia has a lot to teach us today.

From: Fred [Label] Ltd - Art, Artist, Gallery, London, Fred Mann

Don't forget also to read: Poetry and La Convivencia

 

[Darkwater]

Tis only a space in time,a dam in time to be ,eh...

mmmmmmmmmm

where have you been anyway Tash?

 

[TashaN]

Been busy with my final exams. I have finished everything now, thank God, that's why i came back to discuss some of the stuff i have been missing for a while.

 

[England my lionheart]

How do people view the Islamic period in Spain ? in another thread i called it an occupation, TahaN said the Muslims were there because they were welcomed and asked to be there.

Without turning it into a slanging match and trying to keep it historical, what justification is there in either claim?


Tariq ibn Ziyad or Taric bin Zeyad (Arabic: طارق بن زياد‎, d. 720), known in Spanish history and legend as Taric el Tuerto (Taric the one-eyed), was a Berber Muslim and Umayyad general who led the conquest of Visigothic Hispania in 711 under the orders of the Umayyad Caliph Al-Walid I. According to the historian Ibn Khaldoun, Tariq Ibn Ziyad was from a Berber tribe of Algeria. Tariq ibn Ziyad is considered to be one of the most important military commanders in Iberian history. He was initially the deputy of Musa ibn Nusair in North Africa, and was sent by his superior to launch the first thrust of a conquest of the kingom of Hispania (comprising modern Spain and Portugal). Some claim that he was invited to intervene by the heirs of the Visigothic King, Wittiza, in the Visigothic civil war.


Tariq ibn Ziyad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

keeping it in a historical light do we have as TashaN and Lava claim Islamic expansion in the Iberian peinsular at the behest of the people there,or to protect them form harm or persecution or is this just invasion and occupation.




and folks please remember this is not an "attack Islam" thread but a genuine enquiry stemmimg from discussions concerning the spread of Islam and Christianity through History i am in no way being critical of Islam in my stance just critical of the historical portrayal of Islamic expansion being somehow "philanthropic"

It was definately invasion,Tariq-ibn zayed led a small force that won a decisive victory at the battle of Guadalete,a year later the main force arrived and Iberia was conquered over the next seven years.

 

[England my lionheart]

Something beautiful that did come from the invasion was the AlHambra Granada an amazing place

 

[Vile Atheist]

Muslims in Al-Andalus allowed the practice of other religions, but imposed a very high tax on them for doing so. Furthermore, many Muslims got around rules and regulations in Islam by delegating tasks and services to non-Muslims.

Not only that, the enlightment of the Muslim world was brought into Europe through Portugal and Spain. It helped to bring Europe out of the Dark Ages.

But Muslims were welcomed there? Not so. It was plain and simple occupation. Visigoths, Suevi, and Vandals, among other tribes lived there after the Western Roman Empire collapsed. Lots of Celtic and Germanic tribes.

They were killed and displaced either back into France or they went elsewhere. The good thing about the Reconquista is that it gave birth to my ancestral nation of Portugal

 

[Kyniklos]

Al-Andalus lasted seven centuries, so it had ups and downs. The Umayyad period has nothing to do with the Almoravid one, e.g. Under the Caliphate, that lasted less than 100 years, the culture flourished in all possible ways. The same happened in the Taifas era, but after the Berber invasion the shine switched off.

It was an interesting epoch of Spain, but there are many myths around it. Jews and Christians lived as Dhimmis so they were obliged to pay special taxes. They were second-class citizens, in fact. When Almoravid and Almohade tribes occupied Al-Andalus, the coexistence amongst the communities became more difficult and even affected the Muslims themselves. Averroes, for instance, had to flee because of the intolerance of the Berber regimen and the same happened to Maimonides.

 

[Baydwin]

What's interesting now is how the Spanish try to play down their Muslim past, old mosques have become churches and the average man or woman on the street would be hard pressed to admit any Islamic influence on their society.

 

[Kyniklos]

What's interesting now is how the Spanish try to play down their Muslim past, old mosques have become churches and the average man or woman on the street would be hard pressed to admit any Islamic influence on their society.

Well, the modern Spain is the result of the Reconquista so it's not strange the attitude you set out. I'm sure the average Pepe doesn't consider Averroes as a Spaniard since he belonged to the enemy culture. I think we should surpass that approach but without going to the other extreme. These days with the Political Correctness and revisionism dominating, there are folks and many organizations who think and encourage the idea that the Al-Andalus was very cool and almost a paradise on earth. It'd better a middle ground.

 

[Valjean]

It may have begun as an invasion/occupation, but the two communities eventually learned to live together harmoniously in most places. It was those fundamentalist nuts Phillip of Aragon and, especially, Isabella of Castile that screwed it all up.

 

[kai]

It may have begun as an invasion/occupation, but the two communities eventually learned to live together harmoniously in most places. It was those fundamentalist nuts Phillip of Aragon and, especially, Isabella of Castile that screwed it all up.

Actually The Reconquista began almost immediately after the Islamic conquest and passed through major phases before its completion.

 

[zorrro]

This could be both!! Both, a conquest and an invited invasion. History has shown us several instances where certain groups were invited to help (Romans to help Herod, eg.) and then the invited persons become the conquerors. some have commented that there was a direct order from a Caliph to conquer Spain. I beleive this to be factual. If the Moors were invited that I would also like to review and consider. Nonetheless, the entered Spain. Later, they decided to be conquerors because if history serves me well, they invaded France and had a large battle that defeated the Moors from taking over France and other parts of Europe. If they were invited they sure acted as conquerors. A historical fact is that the Vikings invaded Islamic Spain by sailing up a certain river. The only european country documented as having defeated and turned back a (the) Viking invasion is of the Moors defeating the Vikings. The Celtic influence and perhaps Viking influence is deeply shown in Basque country of Spain. Nonetheless, the Moors did turn into conquerors - quickly. any one know what type of Islam they practiced??

 

[zorrro]

Historically, both the Moors and the Jews were monotheistc. Believers in one true God!! True Christianity started this way also - one God. Later Greek influences and adulteration ended up making God - a Trinity. I believe the good relationship between these two cultures in Spain was a direct result of the belief in one true God by both religions. I believe the Moors (Mohamadens) respected Abraham and several of the Jewish key players. Thus respect for Judaism. Historically, the Jews and Arabs are brothers because they come from one descendant - Abraham.

 

[England my lionheart]

The only european country documented as having defeated and turned back a (the) Viking invasion is of the Moors defeating the Vikings.

Not true,King Harold of England and his Army defeated a Viking invasion in 1066 at the battle of Stamford Bridge before marching south to meet the Norman invasion at the battle of Hastings.

 

[Onkara]

any one know what type of Islam they practiced??

They could have been Kharijite, having derived from the Berber People and Tariq ibn Ziyad.

 

[dmgdnooc]

The only european country documented as having defeated and turned back a (the) Viking invasion is of the Moors defeating the Vikings.

Not true,King Harold of England and his Army defeated a Viking invasion in 1066 at the battle of Stamford Bridge before marching south to meet the Norman invasion at the battle of Hastings.

Harold defeated one Northman army at Stamford Bridge and fell before another Northman army at Hastings.
7,000 Northmen conquered and held England's more than 2,000,000 inhabitants in thrall. Which is telling comment on the viciously ruthless tactics used to maintain the occupation.
　
That sort of enforced occupation by the use of terror tactics against the native population does not appear to feature in the Islamic conquest and occupation of Spain.
Quite the contrary; reasonable terms were offered for a cooperative and peaceful transition of government.
And that seems to have remained the over-riding sentiment throughout the period.
　
Dhimmitude was of course a feature of the Islamic law that the conquerors brought with them but perhaps this should be seen in the light of the times where anti-semitic laws filled the statute books of Europe.
Many English lost their freedom altogether being swallowed up as serfs and permanently attached to a Norman Baron's manor. It would seem that the 8th century Germanic Spaniard was better off than the 11th century Englishman.