Speaking of virgins ...

[Gharib]

... When did the Americans use nuclear weapons?

As much as I hate Bush's war, I don't recall him ever using nukes...

do the words Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring any bells?

 

[Sajdah]

Except, let's face it: most "Martyrdom operations" are targeting Civilians!

Practically all suicide bombers hold the same faith, and believe they're fulfilling their "duty" as a Martyr. It's not as Romantic or as innocent as you seem to put it: that it's merely a cause of brave, glorious freedom fighters using thier bodies as a force for liberation.

Come on, you have to admit it's incredibly naive to think like that?

If it was such a "glorious" thing to do then your Prophet Mo' would've blown himself up during his lifetime for the "liberation" of the Arabian lands.

Please, tell me when you learn how to talk with others and respect them, to answer your question!

 

[Sajdah]

looks like i was wrong.

that article was helpfull sister, i now see how it is, Allah does judge us in our intentions and us humans judge one another in our actions, and unfortunately i made a wrong judgement, i mixed the true martyrs with those who kill our innocent brothers and sisters of islam.

jazak allahu khairan sister. may Allah reward you and all those martyrs with jannatul firdaus.

Ameen.....Thank you brother .......
May Allah increase you in knowledge and Iman!

 

[Aquitaine]

Please, tell me when you learn how to talk with others and respect them, to answer your question!

You don't mind me saying you have a naive outlook on suicide bombers, yet you're bothered about me abbreviating one name?

Hahahahaha!


Anyways, back to the topic at hand: suicide bombings.

To my knowledge, most of them involve/target civilians, in densly-populated areas. Of course, the actions of Blair/Bush are responsible for the deaths of countless innocent Iraqi civilians, but it's only realistic to acknowledge that the Iraqis also suffer greatly from other Muslims fighting one-another: blowing up Mosques and Markets in civilian areas.

No suicide bomber is a "liberator" or "Martyr", and by suggesting they are actually damages the reputation of your religion, Sajdah.

 

[Sajdah]

You don't mind me saying you have a naive outlook on suicide bombers, yet you're bothered about me abbreviating one name?

Hahahahaha!

Perhaps when you write the name of the prophet peace be upon him properly, you would be able to express your views in a better way!

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: suicide bombings.

To my knowledge, most of them involve/target civilians, in densly-populated areas. Of course, the actions of Blair/Bush are responsible for the deaths of countless innocent Iraqi civilians, but it's only realistic to acknowledge that the Iraqis also suffer greatly from other Muslims fighting one-another: blowing up Mosques and Markets in civilian areas.

No suicide bomber is a "liberator" or "Martyr", and by suggesting they are actually damages the reputation of your religion, Sajdah.

You said it your self, "most" of them, not 'all' of them!

 

[Ozzie]

I would like to know,

As a female, do I get 75 female virgins?
or 75 male virgins.

Not that it REALLY matters.

I'd just like to know is all.
(for the sake of my mental picture)

Virgins are difficult. Can one own them?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

do the words Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring any bells?

I didn't realize that these were Islamic cities. Please explain further.

 

[Aquitaine]

[/FONT]

Perhaps when you write the name of the prophet peace be upon him properly, you would be able to express your views in a better way!





You said it your self, "most" of them, not 'all' of them!

Well it depends on what you view as "liberating", subconsciously I thought of cases where say for example, Afghanistans shot down Russia helicopters during the Soviet occupation, or when Military targets have been blown up etc.

But regardless, every week in Iraq alone there is usually a suicide bombing, and where are they located? Busy Markets and Town Centres. I feel sorry for the Iraqi people, but blowing themselves up to kill Sunni/Shi'ite Civilians is no more "liberating" than the actions of Bush & Blair.

It's funny how we constantly hear people talk of these "Western Crusaders deliberately targetting Muslims" in relation to the casualities of war, yet not a single Muslim voice has yet to condemn the deliberate targetting of Muslim Iraqi civilians by....... Muslim Iraqi Civilians.

Instead, with them it's all "Glorious Freedom Fighters fulfilling their duty as Martyrs, liberating their people!" Pffft.

And you want these people to go to Paradise!? These people who (depending on whether you're Sunni or Shi'ite) wouldn't hesitate to blow you up - in the name of God?

 

[Sajdah]

Well it depends on what you view as "liberating", subconsciously I thought of cases where say for example, Afghanistans shot down Russia helicopters during the Soviet occupation, or when Military targets have been blown up etc.

But regardless, every week in Iraq alone there is usually a suicide bombing, and where are they located? Busy Markets and Town Centres. I feel sorry for the Iraqi people, but blowing themselves up to kill Sunni/Shi'ite Civilians is no more "liberating" than the actions of Bush & Blair.

It's funny how we constantly hear people talk of these "Western Crusaders deliberately targetting Muslims" in relation to the casualities of war, yet not a single Muslim voice has yet to condemn the deliberate targetting of Muslim Iraqi civilians by....... Muslim Iraqi Civilians.

Instead, with them it's all "Glorious Freedom Fighters fulfilling their duty as Martyrs, liberating their people!" Pffft.

And you want these people to go to Paradise!? These people who (depending on whether you're Sunni or Shi'ite) wouldn't hesitate to blow you up - in the name of God?

Look, the Martyr operations aim to target enemies, like the US troops in Iraq, or Afghanistan, and zionists who are occupying palestine...No one is defending what is happening in Iraq nowadays, in fact the situation there is very complex, and this whole mess happened because of Bush&Blair......They sent their troops to ruin the country, and to make the people fighting each other........So I'm basically talking about those who are defending their country....And defending one's lands is a legitimate right to all humans...The difference here is "HOW".....You know that wars in Iraq or palestine are not equivalent.... Iraqis and palestinians are using very primitive weapons, and the other side uses all modern weapons....So self sacrifice operations (Martyr operations) came here to achieve the goal of defending and liberating their countries...This is the only way they have to use to liberate their countries!

 

[Aquitaine]

Look, the Martyr operations aim to target enemies, like the US troops in Iraq, or Afghanistan, and zionists who are occupying palestine...No one is defending what is happening in Iraq nowadays, in fact the situation there is very complex, and this whole mess happened because of Bush&Blair......They sent their troops to ruin the country, and to make the people fighting each other........So I'm basically talking about those who are defending their country....And defending one's lands is a legitimate right to all humans...The difference here is "HOW".....You know that wars in Iraq or palestine are not equivalent.... Iraqis and palestinians are using very primitive weapons, and the other side uses all modern weapons....So self sacrifice operations (Martyr operations) came here to achieve the goal of defending and liberating their countries...This is the only way they have to use to liberate their countries!

Damn right it's complex, and that's the whole point - it's far too simplistic and naive to view it as "Western forces = evil, Suicide bom..... sorry, Martyrs = good".

End of the day, the average Iraqi has to deal with a Hell of a lot; first they were under the rule of a tyrant (Saddam), then Bush/Blair illegally invaded the country and opened a power vacuum between the Sunnis and Shi'ites. So there's the war, the occupation, and the power struggle.

Now you can continue to call these people who do deliberately target Civilians in suicide attack "Glorious MArtyrs" all you wan't, but at the end fo the day they're no worse than the Allied troops occupying the area. All Allied troops could leave Iraq tomorrow, and the country would still be seeing bloodshed via the continued violence between Shi'ites and Sunnis.

So tell me then, which ones are the Glorious Martyrs - the Sunni suicide bombers targetting Shi'ites, or the Shi'ite suicide bombers targetting Sunnis?

Both I'm sure, are merely trying to "liberate" their land..... from oneanother.

Oh and don't start the whole "Zionist occupying Muslim land" stuff, that's nonesense. It's no-body's land, before it was under British rule, before that it was udner Ottoman rule, then Israelite rule etc.

Trying to cling onto apparent "ownership" of land is pointless unless you're actually in control of the territory at the present time (until you get it stolen from you, basically). Otherwise we may aswell be saying that England belongs to the Romans, and parts of China belong to the Japanese and Mongols, oh and that most of the Mediterranian belongs to the Italians etc.

But yeah, anyways if you please, answer the question as to which MArtyrs go to paradise, the Sunni ones or the Shi'ite ones?

Thank you, Paul.

 

[Gharib]

I didn't realize that these were Islamic cities. Please explain further.

i never said they were islamic cities. someone asked where amreica used atomic bombs and i refreshed their memorie. but no bells rang though.

 

[Gharib]

Ameen.....Thank you brother .......
May Allah increase you in knowledge and Iman!

amin to that inshallah.

 

[Sajdah]

Damn right it's complex, and that's the whole point - it's far too simplistic and naive to view it as "Western forces = evil, Suicide bom..... sorry, Martyrs = good".

Generally speaking, yes western forces are evil, and Iraq is a living example....Martyr operations are good if they were fulfilling their original role, which is fighting oppression, and injustice.....Using such operations with Muslims or innocents are no more good...Like targeting secular governments in Muslim countries, or targeting tourists in Egypt....etc. It is extremism and no one consider it as a good thing!

End of the day, the average Iraqi has to deal with a Hell of a lot; first they were under the rule of a tyrant (Saddam), then Bush/Blair illegally invaded the country and opened a power vacuum between the Sunnis and Shi'ites. So there's the war, the occupation, and the power struggle.

Correct!

Now you can continue to call these people who do deliberately target Civilians in suicide attack "Glorious MArtyrs" all you wan't, but at the end fo the day they're no worse than the Allied troops occupying the area. All Allied troops could leave Iraq tomorrow, and the country would still be seeing bloodshed via the continued violence between Shi'ites and Sunnis.

I don't remember that I said anything of that sort......

So tell me then, which ones are the Glorious Martyrs - the Sunni suicide bombers targetting Shi'ites, or the Shi'ite suicide bombers targetting Sunnis?

The conflict between Sunna and Shia exists even before the Martyr operations, throughout history, there is a bloody conflict between the two sects over political, and religious differences!

Both I'm sure, are merely trying to "liberate" their land..... from oneanother.

That conflict will end when the two parties understand the differences between them in the correct framework

Oh and don't start the whole "Zionist occupying Muslim land" stuff, that's nonesense. It's no-body's land, before it was under British rule, before that it was udner Ottoman rule, then Israelite rule etc.

It is nobody's land? how so? What about the people are living in this land?! May I say that it's too naive POV?! Zionists are occupiers, they are claiming a land to be theirs, and kicking out half of its original inhabitants, and massacring the other half...Is it your understanding of "RULE"?!

Trying to cling onto apparent "ownership" of land is pointless unless you're actually in control of the territory at the present time (until you get it stolen from you, basically). Otherwise we may aswell be saying that England belongs to the Romans, and parts of China belong to the Japanese and Mongols, oh and that most of the Mediterranian belongs to the Italians etc

You have to tell that to Zionists who came in 1948 declaring palestine as their homeland, and claiming that they are regaining their promised "Lands"!!

.But yeah, anyways if you please, answer the question as to which MArtyrs go to paradise, the Sunni ones or the Shi'ite ones?

I don't know, I'm not God to judge people and to know who will enter paradise and who will not...

Thank you, Paul

You're welcome

 

[Aquitaine]

Generally speaking, yes western forces are evil, and Iraq is a living example....Martyr operations are good if they were fulfilling their original role, which is fighting oppression, and injustice.....

Well, I'd say in relation to Iraq the Western Leadership was definitely evil, the troops are only going there because they've been deployed their and lied to. If Soldiers ruled the World, there would be World Peace.

Martyr operations are based almost entirely around suicide bombing: the sacrifice that makes one a Martyr - the giving up of thier own lives, is the perfect "justification" for suicide bombings. And when we look at what's actually going on, that is exactly what takes place: Muslims, strapping bombs to themselves and going to a Mosque, Library or Market place and detonating. Strapping bombs to children or Women and sending them through, or going as Martyrs themselves, whilst they take a massive load of innocent Iraqis with them.

It's not "liberating" at all, it's just causing more mess and creating more dead bodies.

Using such operations with Muslims or innocents are no more good...Like targeting secular governments in Muslim countries, or targeting tourists in Egypt....etc. It is extremism and no one consider it as a good thing!

I got the impression that was what you were calling "Glorious Martyrdom". Regardless though, that's exactly what happens.

On the other hand though, the Iraqis don't seem to have much of a choice: the Coalition forces shouldn't even be in there, and now that Saddam has been toppled, the Sunni/Shi'ite power struggle is opened. Personally, if I was an Iraqi I'd probably just take my family and flee North where (apparently) it's a Hell of a lot safer.
In the West there isn't much we can do, perhaps if we truely did live in a Democracy (which would've prevented the Iraq war, since the majority voted against it) then we could end the war and arrest Blair, but we all know that's never gonna happen.

I don't remember that I said anything of that sort......

Again, the whole "Glorious Martyrs" and "using themselves as a weapon for good" led me to bleieve you were referring to suicide bombers.

The conflict between Sunna and Shia exists even before the Martyr operations, throughout history, there is a bloody conflict between the two sects over political, and religious differences!

Yes, but...... which ones are the Glorious Martyrs liberating their land? Is it the Sunni's when they kill Shi'ites or the Shi'ites when they kill Sunnis? Both are struggling, both have Jihad, both are ....... fighting with Allah on their side, so which ones are the glorious Martyrs?

That conflict will end when the two parties understand the differences between them in the correct framework

LOL, but you could use the same arguement for every nation/group/army who're fighting. It doesn't remove the fact that both of these faction of the Religion of Peace are Martyring themselves, each believing they'll go to Paradise and recieve 72 ....... raisins(?).

It is nobody's land? how so? What about the people are living in this land?! May I say that it's too naive POV?!

Fair enough, you can see me as naive if you want, but the way I think about it is...... if you consider our vast history, it's full of conquest and different borders. England was once under Roman rule for example. Most of Asia was under Mongolian rule, most of the Mediterranian was under Roman/Byzantine/Ottoman rule. God I could contine forever, at the amount of different groups and people that have "claimed" territory for themselves, and then had it taken from them.

From my observation, the only thing that matters is who's got the bigger army. If country A has a bigger army than country B, and country A says that area X is thier land, then it's thier land - untill country C comes along and takes it from them etc. Even our homelands could one day end up under someone else's rule.

The region that people call "Palestine" is no-ones land, just like Israel is no-ones land. It's all just..... land. But the Israelis have bigger guns, better tanks, and faster aircraft - and guess what, they're in control of a significant portion of that region, and they've been so for over 60 years. That's nothing new, it happens all over the world.

But to say that it "belongs" to the "Palestinians" is none-sense. If anything, if you're going to use that argument, then it belongs to the British...... no wait, the Ottomans........ no wait, the Israelites...... and how ever amny other nations have themselves "claimed" that land as their own property.

Besides, the "Zionist" never "stole" the land, they were given it by the UN. That territory once "belonged" to the British Empire before Israel was established. Shortly after Israel was established, 3 Muslim nations attacked it and Israel won, and took more land afterwards, but then gave most of it back.

Regardless, it is land, and their are people living there, that's all that matters. For the time being (untill some other country claims it) Israel belongs to the Israelis.

Zionists are occupiers, they are claiming a land to be theirs

Who's land are they occupying? The Palestinians? The British? The Ottoman? The old Israelites land?

To whom does that land belong to? It's ownership has changed many many times, for a very long time (just like every other piece of land on this planet).

You have to tell that to Zionists who came in 1948 declaring palestine as their homeland, and claiming that they are regaining their promised "Lands"!!

I'm glad you mentioned that because they were doing the exact same as you're doing: claiming an area of land as their own "rightfull property". Also, the UN actually split up British territory and gave it to the Jews to create Israel. It's not as if the Jews just came and took it, they were given it by the (at that time) rulers of that land.

I don't know, I'm not God to judge people and to know who will enter paradise and who will not...

Will George Bush go to Paradise?

Paul Rusco.

 

[Draka]

I just love all this BS about guys who strap bombs on themselves and walk into buildings with daycares in them and blow everyone up. Yup, what "glorious martyrs" they are. Cowardly sacks of dung in my view. I'm wanting to know, as if this is all "the west's" fault and the "west" is evil and all that trash, what the hell happened on September 11, 2001? I suppose we started that too? I suppose those a-holes who hijacked airplanes and ran them into buildings where thousands of innocent people were killed were all "martyrs for the cause"? How is it that we get attacked on our soil, by SUICIDE bombers/hijackers and WE turn out to be the bad guys in this equation and make it so that more suicide bombers are somehow, justified? There is no glory in blowing up yourself and killing women and children in a marketplace. There is no glory in taking out men at work trying to earn a living for their families. There is no glory in blowing yourself up...just stupidity.

 

[Neo-Logic]

I'm quiet amazed that this light-hearted thread has taken on a deep political undertone.

Keep going!! I want to see if we can somehow end up with Sarah Palin, as I hypothesize, all things crazy inevitably does.