Special Pleading and the PoE (Part 2)

[night912]

It is also logical that an all-knowing being who created humans would know what is best for humans.

Let's not forget the obvious illogical part of this as well. It's illogical to assume that an omnipotent and omniscient god with free will has to create a world that is what's best for humans. An all knowing god knows what the best world to create for humans because he knows what's best for humans, but there's no requirement for such a being to have created this world as such.

A person with free will who knows that rape is immoral, can still rape someone. With that being said, unless you are saying that God doesn't have free will, not omnipotent, and/or is subservient to humans or at least, what's best for them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's not forget the obvious illogical part of this as well. It's illogical to assume that an omnipotent and omniscient god with free will has to create a world that is what's best for humans. An all knowing god knows what the best world to create for humans because he knows what's best for humans, but there's no requirement for such a being to have created this world as such.

A person with free will who knows that rape is immoral, can still rape someone. With that being said, unless you are saying that God doesn't have free will, not omnipotent, and/or is subservient to humans or at least, what's best for them.

God does not have free will like human free will which implies choosing between more than one option. God already knows everything so he does not have to choose, and as soon as God wills something it is done.

God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to to. My belief is that Cod created humans out of love so that is why He wants what is best for humans. I also believe that one of God's immutable attributes is benevolence, but God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, according to the following quote. God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

 

[samtonga43]

That is true, all the Manifestations of God can say they are God in the sense that they perfectly reflect all of God's attributes, and they are also God's complete Servants.....
..... but that does not mean that Baha'u'llah actually wrote what is in those quotes you posted, and that is the issue at hand.
I have asked Truthseeker9 to look into this matter further.

Your head is in the sand, Tb. As someone else pointed out, the Athar-i-Qalam-i-A'la are letters written by the B.man.

I understand why the quotes you object to are not included in the 'official' translation; think about it.

You really ought to face facts, otherwise you will continue to live in a land of make-believe.

 

[samtonga43]

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.”

(Excepteth of course to those who hath not beeneth the recipients of the gifts he hath bestowed on those he favors, but those from whom he withholdeth his blessings.)

 

[Trailblazer]

Your head is in the sand, Tb. As someone else pointed out, the Athar-i-Qalam-i-A'la are letters written by the B.man.

I understand why the quotes you object to are not included in the 'official' translation; think about it.

You really ought to face facts, otherwise you will continue to live in a land of make-believe.

I do not have to face anything because I already know the truth about Baha'u'llah, which is all that matters.
No calumny you can dig up on the internet is going to change who Baha'u'llah is.
So I suppose you think the UHJ is is hiding something for us? Been down that road before, not going down it again.

The land of make-believe you live in is that Jesus is the only way and the final and last Word of God.
You cannot change what God foreordained with your beliefs, all you can do is continue to believe them.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

 

[Trailblazer]

(Excepteth of course to those who hath not beeneth the recipients of the gifts he hath bestowed on those he favors, but those from whom he withholdeth his blessings.)

God does not guide those who reject Him because God honors their free will.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

God does guide those who make efforts but unfortunately that is very few people.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

 

[samtonga43]

I do not have to face anything because I already know the truth about Baha'u'llah, which is all that matters.

You believe you ‘know’ the truth about the B.man. However, knowledge is all about facts, and you have none. This is simple logic.

No calumny you can dig up on the internet is going to change who Baha'u'llah is.

Is? Present tense? He’s dead and gone, and he was the kind of man who thought he was God. There are many of these around – mostly in’sheltered’ accommodation. He said he was God. Look it up. No digging necessary. Stop denying facts.

So I suppose you think the UHJ is is hiding something for us? Been down that road before, not going down it again.

Yes the UHJ IS hiding something for you. (Now there’s a Freudian slip, if ever I saw one).

The land of make-believe you live in is that Jesus is the only way and the final and last Word of God. You cannot change what God foreordained with your beliefs, all you can do is continue to believe them.

Right back at ya.

 

[samtonga43]

God does not guide those who reject Him because God honors their free will.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

God does guide those who make efforts but unfortunately that is very few people.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

Ah! Are you fearful that you are not making enough effort on behalf of the B.man? Hmmm...

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe you ‘know’ the truth about the B.man. However, knowledge is all about facts, and you have none. This is simple logic.

I have more facts about Baha'u'llah than you will ever have about Jesus, given you gave no facts about Jesus.
Most scholars concede to that fact that Jesus existed and many concede that the crucifixion was a real event, but no scholars concede to anything else about Jesus, including His alleged miracles.

By stark contrast, the life and history of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have been documented by historians, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are known to be authentic and they are even displayed in museums. By contrast there are no "Writings" of Jesus and we can never even know if He said any of what was attributed to Him in the gospels.

Is? Present tense? He’s dead and gone, and he was the kind of man who thought he was God. There are many of these around – mostly in’ sheltered’ accommodation. He said he was God. Look it up. No digging necessary. Stop denying facts.

Baha'u'llah is no more dead than Jesus is. Both their bodies are dead and both their souls ascended to heaven when their bodies died and both are at the Right Hand of God.

No, Baha'u'llah did not think or say he was God. You have no facts. All you have are alleged quotes from Baha'u'llah and I cannot find either of those quotes anywhere on the Internet.

I do not have to look it up. You are the one who is making the claim so you are responsible to prove it. Otherwise it is only a bald assertion.

It is rather ironic that you are whining about Baha'u'llah claiming to be God when it is you who insists that Jesus is God. Jesus never claimed to be God anymore than Baha'u'llah claimed to be God, because neither one of them is God.

Logically speaking, if Jesus did not think He was God then Jesus was not God, because Jesus would have to have known He was God if He was God. Jesus never claimed to be God because He was not God.

Yes the UHJ IS hiding something for you. (Now there’s a Freudian slip, if ever I saw one).

Right back at ya.

I meant to say from and you know it. No, it is not a Freudian slip, just another one of my typos.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed being God. He also never said He was lonely and felt sorry for Himself and He would never say "All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs" because in innumerable passages He wrote that there is only one true God.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity.” Gleanings, p. 167

“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God.” Gleanings, p. 174

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah! Are you fearful that you are not making enough effort on behalf of the B.man? Hmmm...

Do I look like I am not making enough effort? Just look at how many posts I have posted on this forum. Of course they are not all about my religion, but a good number of them are. And this is not my first rodeo, before I came here I was on various other forums for a good five years. Unfortunately, this is my life now because I cannot get my old life back. Baha'u'llah has evicted me from my life.

 

[Truthseeker]

Your head is in the sand, Tb. As someone else pointed out, the Athar-i-Qalam-i-A'la are letters written by the B.man.

I understand why the quotes you object to are not included in the 'official' translation; think about it.

You really ought to face facts, otherwise you will continue to live in a land of make-believe.

What you are quoting in the Athar-i-Qalam-i-A'la is consistent with what is alreadt translated. As quoted before:

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden” — all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Íqán", 196

I guess, you have not remembered what the quote was originally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your head is in the sand, Tb. As someone else pointed out, the Athar-i-Qalam-i-A'la are letters written by the B.man.

I understand why the quotes you object to are not included in the 'official' translation; think about it.

You really ought to face facts, otherwise you will continue to live in a land of make-believe.

I really should not be doing your homework for you, since you are the one who is making the false claims, but I tried to search for any text containing any phrases in those quotes on the internet and there were none. Anyone can say something is written in a letter, but can they produce the original letter or even a source that is re searchable? No they cannot because Baha'u'llah never said those things.
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But I did find some other examples of what people do when they are seeking to misrepresent and discredit Baha'u'llah.

On the quora.com website, Baha’u’llah misquoted and thus misrepresented in the The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas

1. Baha’u’llah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, “There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise.”

2. He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity.”

3. In Aqdas, page 8, Baha’u’llah says, “We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books.”

Where in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he claim to be a 'prophet'? - Quora

So, being the researcher I am, I went looking for those, because the Aqdas is online in the Baha'i Reference Library, which is the official translation. Unlike the Bible, there is only one official translation of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, not hundreds.

More than 450 translations into English have been written.

Bible translations into English - Wikipedia
.
1. Baha’u’llah mentions in Aqdas, page 43, “There is no God but I the Honored, the Wise.”

• The quora website posting says it is on page 43 of the Aqdas, but it is not ANYWHERE in the Aqdas.

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

There is no God but I – not found

This is what was found in the query:
Results: 1 - 10 of 13
Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

Of Results 1-13, #2 and #12 are the only quotes that resemble “There is no God but I”

#2 Please read the paragraph in context.

Baha'u'llah was quoting God, not talking about Himself when He wrote: “Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.”

Then Baha'u'llah is talking about God when He says there is no God but Him, the Omnipotent Ruler of the worlds

O peoples of the world! Give ear unto the call of Him Who is the Lord of Names, Who proclaimeth unto you from His habitation in the Most Great Prison: “Verily, no God is there but Me, the Powerful, the Mighty, the All-Subduing, the Most Exalted, the Omniscient, the All-Wise.” In truth, there is no God but Him, the Omnipotent Ruler of the worlds. Were it His Will, He would, through but a single word proceeding from His presence, lay hold on all mankind. Beware lest ye hesitate in your acceptance of this Cause—a Cause before which the Concourse on high and the dwellers of the Cities of Names have bowed down. Fear God, and be not of those who are shut out as by a veil. Burn ye away the veils with the fire of My love, and dispel ye the mists of vain imaginings by the power of this Name through which We have subdued the entire creation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 63-77

#12 Please read the paragraph in context.

Again, when Baha'u'llah wrote Who proclaimeth the truth: “Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised” He was quoting what God said.

Be watchful lest the concerns and preoccupations of this world prevent you from observing that which hath been enjoined upon you by Him Who is the Mighty, the Faithful. Be ye the embodiments of such steadfastness amidst mankind that ye will not be kept back from God by the doubts of those who disbelieved in Him when He manifested Himself, invested with a mighty sovereignty. Take heed lest ye be prevented by aught that hath been recorded in the Book from hearkening unto this, the Living Book, Who proclaimeth the truth: “Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.” Look ye with the eye of equity upon Him Who hath descended from the heaven of Divine will and power, and be not of those who act unjustly.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 63-77

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Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Sorry. Your search for the Honored, the Wise produced no results. Possible reasons for this include:

• No matches for your search query exist in the books you searched.
• Your search query contains typographical errors.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

2. He again writes in Aqdas, page 144 “Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity.”

• The quora website posting says it is on page 144 of the Aqdas, but it is not ANYWHERE in the Aqdas.

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Sorry. Your search for Accept whatever is commanded by Baha produced no results. Possible reasons for this include:

• No matches for your search query exist in the books you searched.
• Your search query contains typographical errors.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Results: 1 - 1 of 1

The Lord of Eternity – not found
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3. In Aqdas, page 8, Baha’u’llah says, “We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books.”

• The quora website posting says it is on page 8 of the Aqdas, but it is not ANYWHERE in the Aqdas.

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Sorry. Your search for We have sent down all the Messengers and we have revealed all the Books produced no results. Possible reasons for this include:

• No matches for your search query exist in the books you searched.
• Your search query contains typographical errors.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Sorry. Your search for we have revealed all the Books produced no results. Possible reasons for this include:

• No matches for your search query exist in the books you searched.
• Your search query contains typographical errors.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

Query: Advanced Search | Search Help

Sorry. Your search for and we have revealed all the Books produced no results. Possible reasons for this include:

• No matches for your search query exist in the books you searched.
• Your search query contains typographical errors.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

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These are just a few of many examples of how calumniators TRY to misrepresent and discredit Baha'u'llah....

But not on my watch because I am onto them and will expose them every chance I get, because that is my job.

 

[samtonga43]

I have more facts about Baha'u'llah than you will ever have about Jesus, given you gave no facts about Jesus.

Face it, Tb; neither of us have facts. But where I say that I believe, you say that you know.
Which one of us is more logical?

Most scholars concede to that fact that Jesus existed and many concede that the crucifixion was a real event, but no scholars concede to anything else about Jesus, including His alleged miracles. By stark contrast, the life and history of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have been documented by historians, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are known to be authentic and they are even displayed in museums.

What does ‘known to be authentic’ mean? Does it mean that what the B.man wrote is factually true?

By contrast there are no "Writings" of Jesus and we can never even know if He said any of what was attributed to Him in the gospels.

Correct. We can never know. Think about this, Tb.

No, Baha'u'llah did not think or say he was God. You have no facts. All you have are alleged quotes from Baha'u'llah and I cannot find either of those quotes anywhere on the Internet.
I do not have to look it up. You are the one who is making the claim so you are responsible to prove it. Otherwise it is only a bald assertion.

I can’t prove it, but you have been shown the evidence. Now it’s up to you. I don’t hold out much hope.
"...it is difficult to avoid the suspicion that he [Baha'u'llah] himself made much more radical claims (than the claim that he was instructed by God to bring a message); in other cases he writes in the first-person as God speaking. The following statements are, I think, explicit enough to serve as examples: 'he who speaks in the most great prison (i.e. Acre) is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being'.
Denis MacEoin
M.A. in Persian, Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh and a PhD in Persian and Islamic studies at King's College, Cambridge. Former Bahai.
View source for Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And as Truthseeker quoted:
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.
Found on the internet!
Q. E. D.

It is rather ironic that you are whining about Baha'u'llah claiming to be God when it is you who insists that Jesus is God. Jesus never claimed to be God anymore than Baha'u'llah claimed to be God, because neither one of them is God.

Translation of ‘whining’ from Tb language = Communicating info. which Tb does not wish to know.

Logically speaking, if Jesus did not think He was God then Jesus was not God, because Jesus would have to have known He was God if He was God. Jesus never claimed to be God because He was not God.

I see that you still cannot understand why Jesus never said the words “I am God”. It’s your context problem again.

I meant to say from and you know it. No, it is not a Freudian slip, just another one of my typos.

Same thing. A Freudian slip is an unintentional error (typo in this case) which reveals subconscious feelings.

But not on my watch because I am onto them and will expose them every chance I get, because that is my job.

Your job? How cultish of you...

 

[night912]

God does not have free will like human free will which implies choosing between more than one option. God already knows everything so he does not have to choose, and as soon as God wills something it is done.

God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to to. My belief is that Cod created humans out of love so that is why He wants what is best for humans. I also believe that one of God's immutable attributes is benevolence, but God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, according to the following quote. God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

And you just contradicted yourself by saying that God is both capable and incapable of choosing.

God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to to. My belief is that Cod created humans out of love so that is why He wants what is best for humans. I also believe that one of God's immutable attributes is benevolence, but God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, according to the following quote. God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

That's begging the question in regards to God's attribute of benevolence.

God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

And God can show no favor if he wants to because he is omnipotent. God could do just about anything he wants to because he is omnipotent, so why even bring this up if it does not help your argument, especially when "omnipotent" is not the focus what's being debated.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you just contradicted yourself by saying that God is both capable and incapable of choosing.

I did contradict myself so thanks for catching that and pointing it out.

I said: God does not have free will like human free will which implies choosing between more than one option. God already knows everything so he does not have to choose, and as soon as God wills something it is done.

Then I said: God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to to. My belief is that Cod created humans out of love so that is why He wants what is best for humans. I also believe that one of God's immutable attributes is benevolence, but God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, according to the following quote. God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

I said that God already knows everything so He does not have to choose, and then I said God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so, and that is contradictory.

However, when I said God already knows everything so He does not have to choose I meant that God because God's knowledge is all-encompassing God has always known what He would choose. That means that at some point before humans came into existence God did choose to make that happen by willing it to happen, even though He already knew what He would choose before He willed it.

That's begging the question in regards to God's attribute of benevolence.

No, what I said is not begging the question because I was not assuming the conclusion of an argument:

To beg a question means to assume the conclusion of an argument—a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy, in which an arguer includes the conclusion to be proven within a premise of the argument, often in an indirect way such that its presence within the premise is hidden or at least not easily apparent.[1]

Begging the question - Wikipedia

I was only stating a religious belief, and as a religious belief what I stated below can never be proven true or false.
People can choose to believe God is benevolent or not, that is their choice.

I said: God would not have to create a world that is best for humans unless he chose to do so because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to to. My belief is that Cod created humans out of love so that is why He wants what is best for humans. I also believe that one of God's immutable attributes is benevolence, but God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, according to the following quote. God can show favor if He wants to because He is omnipotent.

And God can show no favor if he wants to because he is omnipotent. God could do just about anything he wants to because he is omnipotent, so why even bring this up if it does not help your argument, especially when "omnipotent" is not the focus what's being debated.

What you just said is very true. God can do anything He wants or does not want to do because He is omnipotent.

It is related to benevolence because, as I said, I believe God might be more benevolent towards some people than others, and the reason that God can show favor is because He is omnipotent, which implies that He can do anything He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

 

[Trailblazer]

Face it, Tb; neither of us have facts. But where I say that I believe, you say that you know.
Which one of us is more logical?

I say I know because I know. This has nothing to do with logic. I know is not a statement of fact, it is an inner knowing that I could never prove to anyone else.

What does ‘known to be authentic’ mean? Does it mean that what the B.man wrote is factually true?

No, authentic does not mean that what Baha'u'llah wrote is factually true. It means tat we know that He wrote it Himself in His own pen.

Authentic: of undisputed origin; genuine.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=authentic+means

Correct. We can never know. Think about this, Tb.

I said: "By contrast there are no "Writings" of Jesus and we can never even know if He said any of what was attributed to Him in the gospels." I was comparing the authenticity of the Writings of Baha'u'llah

Yes, we can and do know that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are authentic. All the original tablets are in the archives building at the Bahai World Centre in Haifa, Israel and they are all stamped with His official Seal attesting that He wrote them. If one can understand Persian or Arabic they can read them in the original language. Some Baha'is have learned these languages so they could read the Writings of Baha'u'llah in the original language.

We can also know that we have no original writings from Jesus and it is the consensus of scholars that the gospels were not written by any of the disciples of Jesus.

I can’t prove it, but you have been shown the evidence. Now it’s up to you. I don’t hold out much hope.

No, you posted those quotes so it is your responsibility to show me where they came from.
You have no evidence, nothing at all. You do not even have any links to those quotes.

"...it is difficult to avoid the suspicion that he [Baha'u'llah] himself made much more radical claims (than the claim that he was instructed by God to bring a message); in other cases he writes in the first-person as God speaking. The following statements are, I think, explicit enough to serve as examples: 'he who speaks in the most great prison (i.e. Acre) is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being'.
Denis MacEoin
M.A. in Persian, Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh and a PhD in Persian and Islamic studies at King's College, Cambridge. Former Bahai.
View source for Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

I do not care what Denis MacEoin says. Do you even know who he is? He is a known critic of the Baha'i Faith.

No, Baha'u'llah never said 'he who speaks in the most great prison (i.e. Acre) is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being'. That is gross calumny.

Anyone can post anything on the internet and CLAIM someone wrote it. I stayed up way to late last night working on that post to prove to you how calumniators have misrepresented Baha'u'llah: #372 Trailblazer

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And as Truthseeker quoted:

Anyone can SAY that Baha'u'llah said that but that is not proof of anything. Where is a link to the original tablet so I can read the alleged quotes IN CONTEXT??

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.
Found on the internet!
Q. E. D.

That is not the same as Baha'u'llah claiming to be God and you know it.

Remember context? The Manifestations of God are only God in the sense that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth ..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

Regarding Baha'u'llah's claims about Himself, this is what Baha'ullah actually wrote:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors. I and My kindred are at your mercy. Do ye as ye please, and be not of them that hesitate, that I might return to God My Lord, and reach the place where I can no longer behold your faces. This, indeed, is My dearest wish, My most ardent desire. Of My state God is, verily, sufficiently informed, observant.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

Translation of ‘whining’ from Tb language = Communicating info. which Tb does not wish to know.

You do not know anything about Baha'u'llah that I do not know. All you know are a bunch of garbage that was posted somewhere on the internet in an effort to discredit Baha'u'llah. Maybe you want to believe that so you can cross Baha'u'llah off your list, but you don't need this trash to cross Him off because you can cross Him off for any reason you wish since you have free will. Why is it that no other Christians here feel the need to discredit Baha'u'llah, and they all know about Him? If people are firm in their own beliefs they have no need to attack the beliefs of other people. Do you see me attacking Christianity? I say what Christian beliefs I disagree with but I would never attack Jesus and call Hi the J man.

I see that you still cannot understand why Jesus never said the words “I am God”. It’s your context problem again.

No, that is your problem, not mine, and it has nothing to so with context. Jesus never claimed to be God or even implied that He was God in any Bible verses. Jesus only came to be thought of as God because the Church decided to make Him into God at the Council of Nicaea, and then all the gullible Christians believed He was God thereafter, except for the wise Christians who read the Bible for themselves and figured out what it really says and means.

Same thing. A Freudian slip is an unintentional error (typo in this case) which reveals subconscious feelings.

And now you know what is in MY subconscious. Nothing could be more arrogant than that..

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

Your job? How cultish of you...

Cultish, why would it be cultish? You are the one who has followed me from thread to thread, posting calumnies about Baha'u'llah, and it is my responsibility to defend the Cause of God against its assailants because that is what Baha'u'llah has enjoined me to do. You are doing me a big favor by providing me with the opportunity to arise and defend Baha'u'llah, as you can see if you read the passage below.

“It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 329-330

 

[samtonga43]

I say I know because I know. This has nothing to do with logic. I know is not a statement of fact, it is an inner knowing that I could never prove to anyone else.

An inner knowing. I see. And if your 'inner knowing' is different from someone else's 'inner knowing' ... which person actually 'knows'? Admit it, Tb. It'll be you, won't it?

No, authentic does not mean that what Baha'u'llah wrote is factually true. It means tat we know that He wrote it Himself in His own pen. Yes, we can and do know that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are authentic.

The writings of many people are authentic, in the sense that they wrote themselves in their own pen. This does not mean that what each one writes is true. Simple logic.

All the original tablets are in the archives building at the Bahai World Centre in Haifa, Israel and they are all stamped with His official Seal attesting that He wrote them.

So he must have written them? And if he did write them, what he wrote must be true? This is illogical.

I do not care what Denis MacEoin says. Do you even know who he is? He is a known critic of the Baha'i Faith.

Ah! The old Genetic Fallacy! So what he says must be untrue? More illogical thinking. His critique may be correct; stranger things have happened.

Anyone can SAY that Baha'u'llah said that but that is not proof of anything.

These quotes are in the Baha'i Online Library, compiled by Dr. Ahang Rabbani.
Ahang Rabbani - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith
“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare:
“I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto".
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

You do not know anything about Baha'u'llah that I do not know. All you know are a bunch of garbage that was posted somewhere on the internet in an effort to discredit Baha'u'llah.

Oh, I wouldn’t call Dr. Ahang Rabbani’s work a bunch of garbage. That’s rude.

No, that is your problem, not mine,

Your lack of understanding is your problem. I do understand why Jesus could not say the words “I am God”. What’s more, this has been explained to you at least once previously.

and it has nothing to so with context. Jesus never claimed to be God or even implied that He was God in any Bible verses.

Not in the individual verses that you rely upon so heavily. But intelligent readers will read in context.

Jesus only came to be thought of as God because the Church decided to make Him into God at the Council of Nicaea, and then all the gullible Christians believed He was God thereafter, except for the wise Christians who read the Bible for themselves and figured out what it really says and means.

The Triune God can be seen in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. Those who cannot see this (those who agree with you?) are not wise.

and it has nothing to so with context. Jesus never claimed to be God or even implied that He was God in any Bible verses.

Not in the individual verses that you rely upon so heavily. But intelligent readers will read in context. One need eyes able to see the whole picture, not just the cherries.

Cultish, why would it be cultish? You are the one who has followed me from thread to thread, posting calumnies about Baha'u'llah, and it is my responsibility to defend the Cause of God against its assailants because that is what Baha'u'llah has enjoined me to do. You are doing me a big favor by providing me with the opportunity to arise and defend Baha'u'llah, as you can see if you read the passage below.

I’m very glad to be doing you a big favor! However, I don’t think I am the only poster who feels that your defence would be a lot more coherent if you would lose all your logical fallacies.... and your accusations of "Logical Fallacy!!" aimed at others.
Have you heard of the Fallacy fallacy?

 

[Magical Wand]

An inner knowing. I see. And if your 'inner knowing' is different from someone else's 'inner knowing' ... which person actually 'knows'?

Well, one could say the same about ordinary beliefs, e.g., people may have different political and scientific perspectives. I don't see how other people having different political perspectives should make me question my beliefs. So, if this person's "inner knowing" is problematic because other people's "inner knowing" leads to different convictions, then isn't it the case that the way people reach scientific or political conclusions is also problematic?

 

[samtonga43]

Well, one could say the same about ordinary beliefs, e.g., people may have different political and scientific perspectives. I don't see how other people having different political perspectives should make me question my beliefs. So, if this person's "inner knowing" is problematic because other people's "inner knowing" leads to different convictions, then isn't it the case that the way people reach scientific or political conclusions is also problematic?

Isn't it all about the difference between knowledge and belief? I can say that I have an inner belief that Christ is God Incarnate. I would never say that I had some sort of 'inner knowing'.

 

[Magical Wand]

Isn't it all about the difference between knowledge and belief? I can say that I have an inner belief that Christ is God Incarnate. I would never say that I had some sort of 'inner knowing'.

He may well argue that this sort of subjective knowledge isn't different from those derived from doxastic practices such as sense perception. I know I'm seeing this computer right know in front of me because my senses tell me so. Therefore, this subjective information may be called knowledge. Likewise, his alleged experience of his deity may be called knowledge if it is received through his alleged sensus divinitatis.