Special Pleading and the PoE (Part 2)

[Trailblazer]

Do you no longer believe that God caused the physical world, then?

God created the physical world but not the suffering.

If God did not intend for his creation to have the form it does, where do you think God screwed up?

God intended for the physical world to have the form it does, but God did not intend suffering.

 

[viole]

So the Covid-19 vaccines have not prevented any suffering?
Maybe they should be taken off the shelf and see what happens.

With a benevolent God, there would be no need of any vaccines.

ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

You're contradicting yourself.

Suffering is a feature of creation the way it is. If God intended creation to be the way it is, then God intended suffering.

No, God did not intend suffering, God allows suffering to exist. We already covered this.

Intend

1. have (a course of action) as one's purpose or objective; plan.
"the company intends to cut about 4,500 jobs"

2. design or destine (someone or something) for a particular purpose or end.
"this one-roomed cottage was intended to accommodate a family"

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=intend+means

Allow

1. give (someone) permission to do something.
"the dissident was allowed to leave the country"

2. give the necessary time or opportunity for.
"he stopped for a moment to allow his eyes to adjust"

https://www.google.com/search?q=allow+means

IOW, was suffering a part of God's original plan?

- if yes, then God intended suffering to exist and this reflects on his character.
- if no, then God failed to execute what he set out to do and this reflects on his ability.

God did not intend for suffering to exist, God allows it to exist. See above.

 

[viole]

God did not create COVID-19 so its effects are not God's responsibility.

But He let it happen. While being in the position to stop it. Being almighty and all. So, He is as responsible as that guy that does nothing while a child is drowning next to Him. Even worse, since that guy is mortal and not omnipotent.

ciao

- viole

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

How utterly childish to want God to end suffering just because you don't like it.
Mama, I want chocolate ice cream, not vanilla. Give me chocolate.

Excuse you.

This is not a matter of ice cream preference, or "First World problems". How asinine to compare disease, famine, and drought to something so trivial.

 

[an anarchist]

The Problem of Evil, as most know, is an argument that points out it is inconsistent for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent deity to create a world in which preventable suffering exists

I got to thinking. I’m a syncretist. I have not begun studying Zoroastrianism, besides surface level research. However, I intend to one day be a Zoroastrian, on account of my syncretism. It is sometimes called a monotheistic religion.
However, others interpret it dualistic in nature. Essentially, the concept of the religion is this: there is a cosmic battle versus Good and Evil going on, and everybody’s thoughts and actions contribute to that battle, for better or worse. There is the good God, Ahura Mazda, and then the bad God, Ahriman
In the dualistic interpretation, Ahura Mazda is not omnipotent. He is in a battle for control of the universe with Ahriman, and needs our help to overcome evil.
Since I’m a syncretist, I consider Zoroastrian interpretation of God to be accurate. I no longer believe my God is omnipotent, in this sense. I believe He is benevolent, and does not have the capacity to destroy evil on His own.
Side note: the Zoroastrian high priests were the worlds first astrologers. They were called magi, and probably created the zodiac. Three magi were the three wise men who followed the star of Bethlehem to give gifts to baby Jesus. The KJV has created that Christmas decoration idea of three kings following some spotlight towards baby Jesus, but in actuality it was three magi who used astrology. Just to dabble into them intertwining a bit

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, not really.

Interesting. So nothing to blame or thank God for?

God takes on the responsibility of sending His Messengers but that is only out of His love, mercy and compassion for humans. God could dispense with all His creatures in one second if He chose to. Instead He puts up with people ranking on Him day and night. But there will be consequences. How ignorant people are to say God is omnipotent and then believe there will be no consequences for what they say, think, and feel about God. Their Ego rules.

Setting your revenge fantasy aside, you do realize that things like the Problem of Evil aren't criticisms of God, right? They're criticisms of theists.

The Problem of Evil is one specific way of saying "hey (specific but large category of) theists - what you say you believe doesn't make sense and contradicts itself."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That was never my argument.

Whatever you say.

God did not create COVID-19 so its effects are not God's responsibility.

Who or what did, then? If it emerged out of God's creation, then God would be ultimately responsible for it.

 

[Irate State]

God does not cause suffering, so God is not to responsible for suffering.
Suffering simply exists because that is the nature of life in a physical world.

Cause
make (something, especially something bad) happen.
"this disease can cause blindness"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=cause+meaning

How utterly childish to want God to end suffering just because you don't like it.
Mama, I want chocolate ice cream, not vanilla. Give me chocolate.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree, I mean how a construct made by humans and laden with attributes, whether good or bad ones have any actual influence in the material world?
It's strictly a problem of the physical existence as you said. So why looking for a god at all?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God created the physical world but not the suffering.

But you just said that suffering is inherent to the physical world.

God intended for the physical world to have the form it does, but God did not intend suffering.

But the form of the physical world causes suffering. If God intended the physical world to be as it is - with, as you say, suffering inherent in it - then God intended suffering. No?

 

[Trailblazer]

Excuse you.

This is not a matter of ice cream preference, or "First World problems". How asinine to compare disease, famine, and drought to something so trivial.

I was not comparing ice cream preference to First World Problems such as disease, famine, or drought.
Did you see me draw such a comparison? Please cite it if you see it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. So nothing to blame or thank God for?

We can thank God for the creation in which we exist.

Setting your revenge fantasy aside, you do realize that things like the Problem of Evil aren't criticisms of God, right? They're criticisms of theists.

That won't cut the mustard. I don't see you referring to theists. You are referring to God so you are critiquing God. This has nothing to do with what theists believe about God. You have your own mind so you can think for yourself.

The Problem of Evil is one specific way of saying "hey (specific but large category of) theists - what you say you believe doesn't make sense and contradicts itself."

I try to explain why nothing is contradictory but nobody pays any attention. They just keep carrying on with their own position. They don't want to hear what theists have to say. They just want to rank on God and try to prove that they are right and God is bad because God does not do what they want Him to do. There are very few theists who will even talk to these kinds of atheists. They just shake the dust off their feet and move on, realizing how hopeless it is.

If you want to believe that is malevolent you are free to believe that. It cannot hurt me and it won't hurt God.
You only hurt yourself even if you don't realize it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who or what did, then? If it emerged out of God's creation, then God would be ultimately responsible for it.

That is utterly ludicrous and illogical. This is what I meant in my previous post, always blaming God.
There is nothing I can do with this kind of illogical thinking.
God is only responsible for what He creates. God created the creation but what developed later is not God's responsibility. That is called passing the buck.

Ask the scientists and researchers who is responsible for the emergence of Covid-19.
Do you think they will say God? No, they would not embarrass themselves that way.

What is the original source of the COVID-19 disease?

We do not know the exact source of the current outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), but we know that it originally came from an animal, likely a bat.Jun 4, 2021

Animals and COVID-19

 

[F1fan]

This world is an error handling back up plan and we are in one of it the most back of back up plans. It has an explanation, but the explanation is not simple. The original intended world was perfect. And it was meant to be restored to a just state for a long time but man has been rebelling against his chosen kings for a long time too.

So the Creator made mistakes?

 

[Trailblazer]

But you just said that suffering is inherent to the physical world.

But the form of the physical world causes suffering. If God intended the physical world to be as it is - with, as you say, suffering inherent in it - then God intended suffering. No?

God knew there would be suffering as well as joy that would come about as the result of His creation.
God did not intend the suffering, it is unavoidable because the physical world is the source of suffering.

PAIN AND SORROW

In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.

There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter—the spiritual world bestows only the joy!

If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene.

Today, humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief, no one escapes; the world is wet with tears; but, thank God, the remedy is at our doors. Let us turn our hearts away from the world of matter and live in the spiritual world! It alone can give us freedom! If we are hemmed in by difficulties we have only to call upon God, and by His great Mercy we shall be helped.

If sorrow and adversity visit us, let us turn our faces to the Kingdom and heavenly consolation will be outpoured.

If we are sick and in distress let us implore God’s healing, and He will answer our prayer.

When our thoughts are filled with the bitterness of this world, let us turn our eyes to the sweetness of God’s compassion and He will send us heavenly calm! If we are imprisoned in the material world, our spirit can soar into the Heavens and we shall be free indeed!

When our days are drawing to a close let us think of the eternal worlds, and we shall be full of joy!

You see all round you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness....

Paris Talks, pp. 109-111

 

[F1fan]

Benevolence: the quality of being well meaning; kindness.

Is it kind to create a world where cancers eventually develop among humans and other animals?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it kind to create a world where cancers eventually develop among humans and other animals?

Yes.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We can thank God for the creation in which we exist.

Why would we thank him? You just said he isn't responsible for anything.

That won't cut the mustard. I don't see you referring to theists. You are referring to God so you are critiquing God. This has nothing to do with what theists believe about God. You have your own mind so you can think for yourself.

The Problem of Evil is about the discrepancy between claims about God - i.e. beliefs that reside in the heads of certain theists - and reality.

I try to explain why nothing is contradictory but nobody pays any attention. They just keep carrying on with their own position.

I hear you; it's just that when you contradict yourself, you distract me from you telling me that you aren't contradicting yourself.

They don't want to hear what theists have to say. They just want to rank on God and try to prove that they are right and God is bad because God does not do what they want Him to do. There are very few theists who will even talk to these kinds of atheists. They just shake the dust off their feet and move on, realizing how hopeless it is.

I will happily accept any rational argument whose premises are true. If you can't provide this, it's your problem, not mine.

If you want to believe that is malevolent you are free to believe that. It cannot hurt me and it won't hurt God.
You only hurt yourself even if you don't realize it.

I believe that God isn't so much malevolent as he is non-existent.

Where the PoE comes into play is in that I recognize that the God propose, if he were to exist, would be malevolent.

 

[F1fan]

That is utterly ludicrous and illogical. This is what I meant in my previous post, always blaming God.
There is nothing I can do with this kind of illogical thinking.

God is only responsible for what He creates.

Actually your thinking is irrational.

You admit that God created the world.
That God knew everything through time when it created the world.
That God created evolution and used it to create humans eventually.
That in evolution cancers would develop.
This means God knew that cancers would develop in its creation as it created.
It knew many humans would suffer from cancer.
If God didn't want cancer to be part of the human experience why are cancers part of creation?

God created the creation but what developed later is not God's responsibility. That is called passing the buck.

Yet God KNEW how creation would develop. If God saw cancers in the human experience why did it not eliminate them developing?

Did God have limits to how it could create?
Was God blind to the future, and you are mistaken?

 

[F1fan]

s it kind to create a world where cancers eventually develop among humans and other animals?

Yes.

Wow. Just wow.

I'm just going to let this comment sit there and let others respond. Unbelievable.