We Never Know
No Slack
You may have said so on another thread but what is evil?
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Special Pleading and the PoE (Part 3)
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
You may have said so on another thread but what is evil?
I will owe other posters responses, but I will respond to this one as I’m going to sleep as the answer is short.
The “Problem of Evil” is an unfortunate historical name; the Problem is presented (at least by me) in terms of suffering.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
If you arbitrary mean based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system, then stop talking and walk the walk. Make an objective system based on objective rationality, so you avoid personal whim.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Reason is a tool by which we attempt to make sense of the world. But perhaps there are aspects of our existence that will never make sense to us.
It seems to me that what you are looking for is justice. And why shouldn't a rational being expect justice, in a reasonable world? Perhaps because the world is not reasonable?
Many people turn to religion precisely because they cannot make sense of the world, nor find any justice in it. So they hand the problem over to God, or Providence, Destiny, the Universe, some power greater than themselves.
We Never Know
No Slack
Is it evil that a young sick antelopes is attacked by a lion which bites its throat, suffering until it suffocates, then dies?
Is it evil when any other species has a sick, diseased member suffering?
Or is evil just a human thing?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Your post is good. No doubt. With this you seem to contend the so called qualities of God, like Omnipotence, and omnibenevolence (if there is such a word). Not the existence. Is that right?
I've noticed that how humans value certain things is not a given as I have assumed. To value reason would be a reasonable assumption because it is a skill that does serve humans well. However, we can see that many folks can exist and even function is a society by following patterns of behavior (like follow laws, follow social rules, learn how to do a job and perform those tasks a certain way, etc.) without having to reason. Many folks assume thinking is the same as reasoning. But thinking is just a function of language acquisition, we can form abstract thoughts and believe irrational ideas because they are emotionally satisfying. But reasoning is skilled thinking, it has to be learned and practiced. In regards to social, religious, and other ideas reasoning also requires good self-awareness, in that a person needs to be able to assess their own bias and how it might influence reasoning.
Also what people value can have many causes, many are social. For example a person who has conservative attitudes might learn from social experience that reasoning is a liability to fit in to the preferred social framework and be accepted by peers. So there can be a subconscious learning experience to avoid subjecting certain ideas to more reasoned thinking until it becomes a habit.
As another example we have seen one member continue to insist that God is not accountable for what it's created because it created processes to function independently of intervention. But this is not reasonable given the God knew exactly the outcomes of what it created, thus is aware and responsible for its decision. The resistance to this simple cause/effect principle illustrates how belief requires the rejection of reason in order to protect the ideas the self is depending on for identity.
Krishnamurti would talk about how these folks are not free from what they believe and essentially trapped by the very ideas they think bring them truth.
So my point was to acknowledge that reason is CRUCIAL for this discussion. The 'belief for the sake of belief', and the assumption that 'belief is true because I believe it', are both irrelevant to debate/argument, but is being used as a basis for positions a number of people. These discussions get mired in this quicksand.
Did you know that the word "evil" is not used in psychology? To my mind it is a very casual and imprecise word.
I think it's easier for atheists to acknowledge that nature works without any moral goodness. We don't like the savage nature of survival of the fittest when we witness it, whether antelopes being killed by a lion or a child dying from Leukemia. But we have the advantage of not having to reconcile these things with a God that is supposed to value humans as special, especially the young.
So evil is a human thing. And it's a religious thing. We all have adopted a certain framework and belief about evil even if we are atheists.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I think it does register as good in some circumstances. Not that the illness is good, but, the reaction of the child, family, and friends to the tragedy an be good and inpiring in a positive way. When the child is strong, finds meaning in their life, recognizes the beauty of life in spite of the illness, I think people acknoweldge there is some good in it. This suggests that the process of ovecoming suffering has value to God ( assuming God exists per the OP ).
It's about humbling humans. It's the only way we can make it back to God and begin to see his veils of light and take guidance from them again. A little technology and medicine, and look how many atheists exist now. It would not be the case without medicine.
Imam Ali (a) says the following in a sermon:
This is the thing against which Allah has protected His creatures who are believers by means of prayers, and alms-giving, and suffering the hardship of fasting in the days in which it has been made obligatory, in order to give their limbs peacefulness, to cast fear in their eyes, to make their spirits humble, to give their hearts humility and to remove haughtiness from them.
All this is achieved through the covering of their delicate cheeks with dust in humility, prostrating their main limbs on the ground in humbleness, and retracting of their bellies so as to reach to their backs due to fasting by way of lowliness (before Allah), besides giving all sorts of products of the earth to the needy and the destitute by way of alms. Look what there is in these acts by way of curbing the appearance of pride and suppressing the traces of vanity.
And part of the same sermon:
If Allah had wanted to create Adam from a light whose glare would have dazzled the eyes, whose handsomeness would have amazed the wits and whose fragrance would have caught the breath, He could have done so; and if He had done so, people would have bowed to him in humility and the trial of the angels through him would have become easier. But Allah, the Glorified, tries His creatures by means of those things whose real nature they do not know in order to distinguish (good and bad) for them through the trial, and to remove vanity from them and keep them and keep them aloof from pride and self-admiration.
You should take a lesson from what Allah did with Satan; namely He nullified his great acts and extensive efforts on account of the vanity of one moment, although Satan had worshipped Allah for six thousand years - whether by the reckoning of this world or of the next world is not known. Who now can remain safe from Allah after Satan by committing a similar disobedience? None at all.
Allah, the Glorified, cannot let a human being enter Paradise if he does the same thing for which Allah turned out from it an angel. His command for the inhabitants in the sky and of the earth is the same. There is no friendship between Allah and any individual out of His creation so as to give him license for an undesirable thing which He has held unlawful for all the worlds.
And part of the same sermon:
Take instruction from how Allah's wrath, violence, chastisement and punishment fell upon the arrogant nations before you. Take admonition from the resting places of their cheeks and their bodies, and seek Allah's protection from the dangers of pride, as you seek His protection from calamities. Certainly, if Allah were to allow anyone to indulge in pride He would have allowed it to his selected prophets and vicegerents.
But Allah, the Sublime, disliked vanity for them and liked humbleness for them. Therefore, they laid their cheeks on the ground, smeared their faces with dust, bent themselves down for the believers and remained humble people. Allah tried them with hunger, afflicted them with difficulty, tested them with fear, and upset them with troubles. Therefore, do not regard wealth and progeny the criterion for Allah's pleasure and displeasure, as you are not aware of the chances of mischief and trials during richness and power as Allah, the Glorified, the Sublime, has said:
What! Think they that what We aid them with of wealth and children, We are hastening unto them the good things? Nay! They (only) perceive not. (Qur'an, 23:55-56)
Certainly, Allah the Glorified, tries His creatures who are vain about themselves through His beloved persons who are humble in their eyes.
When Musa son of ‘Imran went to Pharaoh along with his brother Harun (Aaron) wearing (coarse) shirts of wool and holding sticks in their hands, they guaranteed him retention of his country and continuity of his honour if he submitted; but he said: "Do you not wonder at these two men guaranteeing me the continuity of my honour and the retention of my country although you see their poverty and lowliness. Otherwise, why do they not have gold bangles on their wrists?" He said so feeling proud of his gold and collected possessions, and considering wool and its cloth as nothing.
When Allah, the Glorified, deputed His prophets, if He had wished to open for them treasures and mines of gold and (surround them with) planted gardens and to collect around them birds of the skies and beasts of the earth, He could have done so. If He had done so then there would have been no trial, nor recompense and no tidings (about the affairs of the next world).
Those who accepted (His message) could not be given the recompense falling due after trial and the believers could not deserve the reward for good acts, and all these words 2 would not have retained their meanings. But Allah, the Glorified, makes His Prophets firm in their determination and gives them weakness of appearance as seen from the eyes, along with contentment that fills the hearts and eyes resulting from care-freeness, and with want that pains the eyes and ears.
If the prophets possessed authority that could not be assaulted, or honour that could not be damaged or domain towards which the necks of people would turn and the saddles of mounts could be set, it would have been very easy for people to seek lessons and quite difficult to feel vanity.
They would have then accepted belief out of fear felt by them or inclination attracting them, and the intention of them all would have been the same, although their actions would have been different. Therefore, Allah, the Glorified decided that people should follow His prophets, acknowledge His books, remain humble before His face, obey His command and accept His obedience with sincerity in which there should not be an iota of anything else; and as the trial and tribulation would be stiffer the reward and recompense too should be larger.
This is the thing against which Allah has protected His creatures who are believers by means of prayers, and alms-giving, and suffering the hardship of fasting in the days in which it has been made obligatory, in order to give their limbs peacefulness, to cast fear in their eyes, to make their spirits humble, to give their hearts humility and to remove haughtiness from them.
All this is achieved through the covering of their delicate cheeks with dust in humility, prostrating their main limbs on the ground in humbleness, and retracting of their bellies so as to reach to their backs due to fasting by way of lowliness (before Allah), besides giving all sorts of products of the earth to the needy and the destitute by way of alms. Look what there is in these acts by way of curbing the appearance of pride and suppressing the traces of vanity.
And part of the same sermon:
If Allah had wanted to create Adam from a light whose glare would have dazzled the eyes, whose handsomeness would have amazed the wits and whose fragrance would have caught the breath, He could have done so; and if He had done so, people would have bowed to him in humility and the trial of the angels through him would have become easier. But Allah, the Glorified, tries His creatures by means of those things whose real nature they do not know in order to distinguish (good and bad) for them through the trial, and to remove vanity from them and keep them and keep them aloof from pride and self-admiration.
You should take a lesson from what Allah did with Satan; namely He nullified his great acts and extensive efforts on account of the vanity of one moment, although Satan had worshipped Allah for six thousand years - whether by the reckoning of this world or of the next world is not known. Who now can remain safe from Allah after Satan by committing a similar disobedience? None at all.
Allah, the Glorified, cannot let a human being enter Paradise if he does the same thing for which Allah turned out from it an angel. His command for the inhabitants in the sky and of the earth is the same. There is no friendship between Allah and any individual out of His creation so as to give him license for an undesirable thing which He has held unlawful for all the worlds.
And part of the same sermon:
Take instruction from how Allah's wrath, violence, chastisement and punishment fell upon the arrogant nations before you. Take admonition from the resting places of their cheeks and their bodies, and seek Allah's protection from the dangers of pride, as you seek His protection from calamities. Certainly, if Allah were to allow anyone to indulge in pride He would have allowed it to his selected prophets and vicegerents.
But Allah, the Sublime, disliked vanity for them and liked humbleness for them. Therefore, they laid their cheeks on the ground, smeared their faces with dust, bent themselves down for the believers and remained humble people. Allah tried them with hunger, afflicted them with difficulty, tested them with fear, and upset them with troubles. Therefore, do not regard wealth and progeny the criterion for Allah's pleasure and displeasure, as you are not aware of the chances of mischief and trials during richness and power as Allah, the Glorified, the Sublime, has said:
What! Think they that what We aid them with of wealth and children, We are hastening unto them the good things? Nay! They (only) perceive not. (Qur'an, 23:55-56)
Certainly, Allah the Glorified, tries His creatures who are vain about themselves through His beloved persons who are humble in their eyes.
When Musa son of ‘Imran went to Pharaoh along with his brother Harun (Aaron) wearing (coarse) shirts of wool and holding sticks in their hands, they guaranteed him retention of his country and continuity of his honour if he submitted; but he said: "Do you not wonder at these two men guaranteeing me the continuity of my honour and the retention of my country although you see their poverty and lowliness. Otherwise, why do they not have gold bangles on their wrists?" He said so feeling proud of his gold and collected possessions, and considering wool and its cloth as nothing.
When Allah, the Glorified, deputed His prophets, if He had wished to open for them treasures and mines of gold and (surround them with) planted gardens and to collect around them birds of the skies and beasts of the earth, He could have done so. If He had done so then there would have been no trial, nor recompense and no tidings (about the affairs of the next world).
Those who accepted (His message) could not be given the recompense falling due after trial and the believers could not deserve the reward for good acts, and all these words 2 would not have retained their meanings. But Allah, the Glorified, makes His Prophets firm in their determination and gives them weakness of appearance as seen from the eyes, along with contentment that fills the hearts and eyes resulting from care-freeness, and with want that pains the eyes and ears.
If the prophets possessed authority that could not be assaulted, or honour that could not be damaged or domain towards which the necks of people would turn and the saddles of mounts could be set, it would have been very easy for people to seek lessons and quite difficult to feel vanity.
They would have then accepted belief out of fear felt by them or inclination attracting them, and the intention of them all would have been the same, although their actions would have been different. Therefore, Allah, the Glorified decided that people should follow His prophets, acknowledge His books, remain humble before His face, obey His command and accept His obedience with sincerity in which there should not be an iota of anything else; and as the trial and tribulation would be stiffer the reward and recompense too should be larger.
So you think there are more atheists because science and medicine are successful?
And you think this is bad because atheists won't make it back to God's veils of light?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Lets say this God is someone who creates all the babies magically like a stork who brings babies. Hypothetically. Would you then ask "why did he create them to understand right and wrong. He should have created babies innocent and given us the right to nurture them the way we want"?
1. Yes, it's a huge factor.
2. Yes, if we were humble it would be better, but technology is good if we are humble.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Nah. There's always another way.
There is no problem of evil.
If there be gods, they decide what reality & morality are.
They do as they please. They determine what is right.
Even if they did do evil, it would all be part of their plan,
& therefore good.
Beliefs & values of us miserable humans are irrelevant.
If there be gods, they decide what reality & morality are.
They do as they please. They determine what is right.
Even if they did do evil, it would all be part of their plan,
& therefore good.
Beliefs & values of us miserable humans are irrelevant.
Bingo. We see many theist debate themselves into a corner and often retreat to their final redoubt of an afterlife as God's pure place for humans, and this show justifies a fallen and savage (real) world experience. Of course this is completely irrational and devoid of any fact.
Many theists adopt a framework of belief that just can't stand up to scrutiny in open debate. The rational thing to do would be to abandon these religious beliefs.
There is none, when Adam (a) doubted the veils of light, we became too volatile and not everyone repented with Adam (a). The world had to fall, because, very little would have not sided with Iblis if it remained in it's state.
And what is sad, is despite God going out of his way to humble us, we've become arrogant despite all that and rejected his guidance.
@We Never Know
I think it can also be looked at in terms of a discrepancy between God's will and the reality we see around us.
What the "problem" is about is pretty much arbitrary. It just needs a premise about something that God hates/doesn't intend/etc. The "problem" would still be as much of a problem if it were phrased as "if God hates brown M&Ms, how did we end up with so many brown M&Ms?"
(Though of course that phrasing of the Problem of Evil would only work if it were taken as a given that the God in question hates brown M&Ms)
Edit: and in any case, I see the Problem of Evil as just one special case of a larger problem for theism: if God exists, why does he behave as if he doesn't exist?
This is why I've said argument from divine hiddenness is stronger as well as why God does not talk to us is a stronger argument from the general PoE.