Speciation

[lunakilo]

One of the comments most often hear from creationiste on this forum is "Show me an example of one species turning into another"

The word species has more than one definition.
I use the word as meaning a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.
This means that for example dogs and wolfs are the same species, but cats and dogs are not.

When I look at nature I see plenty of examples to convience me that the event of a single species splitting into two species has occured many times in the history of the planet earth.
But what I see is not the whole evolutionary tree, but just a moment (or a very short periode) in time.

The world I observe fits well with the theory of evolution, but as it has been pointed out to me, it also fits very well with the theory that God created several kinds of animals (all the species existing today).

We can see genetic changes within a species, but within a timespan of a few human generations it is not possible to see a species like dogs split and become 2 seperate species which cannot interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.
I should be possible if you look at species with short lifespans.

I came across this example of the London Underground mosquito: London Underground mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is about a population of mosquito which have been isolated underground for many generations and are now very different from their relatives abouve ground. They don't interbreed, but not because they can't, they just don't.
They are still the same species.

That means this example of the London Underground mosquito is not good enough, do any of you have a good example of speciation?

 

[lunakilo]

Come on people.

I remember seing links to pages on this topic in other threads.

Are the creationists right?
Are there no examples of one species splitting into two?

 

[fantome profane]

I came across this example of the London Underground mosquito: London Underground mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is about a population of mosquito which have been isolated underground for many generations and are now very different from their relatives abouve ground. They don't interbreed, but not because they can't, they just don't.
They are still the same species.

That means this example of the London Underground mosquito is not good enough, do any of you have a good example of speciation?

Why do you say they are not different species?

From the wikepedia link you give it says (my bold)

The evidence for this mosquito being a different species from Culex pipiens comes from research by Kate Byne and Richard Nichols. The species have very different behaviours [1], are extremely difficult to mate [3], and with different allele frequency consistent with genetic drift during a founder event.[5] More specifically, this mosquito, Culex pipiens molestus, breeds all-year round, is cold intolerant, and bites rats, mice, and humans, in contrast to the above ground species Culex pipiens that is cold tolerant, hibernates in the winter, and bites only birds. When the two varieties were cross-bred the eggs were infertile suggesting reproductive isolation [1][3]

 

[Orbital]

Are the creationists right?
Are there no examples of one species splitting into two?

They wouldn't be right if you would throw out the entire theory of evolution. You can even dispose of the gravitational theory and they still wound't be right.

do any of you have a good example of speciation?

Yes.

 

[painted wolf]

There are several examples... The Evening Primrose species O.gigas speciated due to a polyploidy event and can no longer reproduce with it's parent population O. lamarckiana.

A good example of polyploid speciation in mammals are the Golden and the Plains Viscacha Rats.

The Kew Primrose is an example of seciation via. hybridization. They can not interbreed with either of their parent species, but are interfertile with themselves.

Just a few examples for you.

And yes, the London Underground Mosquitoes count as there are genetic barriers to interbreeding with the parent species. Indeed as more research has gone on, we are finding evidence that there may actually be several species of London underground mosquitoes.

wa:do

 

[Oneatatime]

Phylogentic trees based on measures of genetic similarity combined witih molecular dating provides good evidence of speciation. This fits well with evolution and terribly with creationists theories because species do not conform to limited kinds or suddenly appear but rather shower a pattern of divergence and continous change. Its also makes a mockery of humans being the product of special creation because we are part of animalia which in turn makes up a small part of the Eucaryotes

As has already been mentioned there are numerous examples of speciation out there if you are more concerned with what is observable on during a human lifetime but its important to keep the above in mind

 

[newhope101]

They wouldn't be right if you would throw out the entire theory of evolution. You can even dispose of the gravitational theory and they still wound't be right.Theories on gravitation do not change like the wind. It is the theoretical side of science that changes eg big bang, how and why.



Yes.

I am sorry to say that your salamander continues to be a salamander. It does not matter that their vertebrae extended, they continue to be salamanders.

Homoplasy: A good thread to pull to understand the evolutionary ball of yarn

Salamanders are meant to share a common ancestor with a frog. As a creationist I'd say frogs are a 'kind' and salamanders are another 'kind'.

"The analysis is not yet complete, though. National Geographic News reported that the Field Museum’s John Bolt, a curator for fossil amphibians and reptiles, cautioned that it is difficult to say for sure whether this creature was itself a common ancestor of the two modern groups, given that there is only one known specimen of Gerobatrachus, and an incomplete one at that. "At this point I would say it is by no means certain that this is representative of a common ancestor to frogs and salamanders, although it might be," Bolt said.[1] Bolt also says, "The most astonishing thing to me about this study is that this animal is far more froglike than I would ever have expected from its age. Nothing this nonprimitive has ever been described from this age. It's just amazing."[1]"
Gerobatrachus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The picture cited is a restoration from a few bones. It is likely just a frog. As with earlier Neanderthal sketches of a chimp man, representations and restorations mean little.

Likewise mosquitos are a kind and were always a kind. Highlighting changes, particularly somatic ones, is not evidence that a mosquito was ever anything other than a mosquito, nor that it will evolve into anything that no longer looks like the 'kind' mosquito.

Drosophila was hoped to provide evidence of 'accelerated development' over 600 generations. The allele did not fix in the population. Further to that drosophila reverted back...and even further to that the researchers suggested the fixing of advantageous alleles is even less likely in the wild.
Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila : Nature : Nature Publishing Group
Genome-Wide Analysis of a Long-term Evolution Experiment With Drosophila


Evolutionists use the term 'different species' to denote a variation. Creationists do not deny ability to adapt and some variation within kind. eg dogs and wolves are the same kind, by whatever name you wish to call them. Your species definitions, and you have a plethora of them, denotes variations within kinds. In humans you refer to variation as 'races'. However humans are the same kind and were never chimps, nor something that looked like a chimp, nor something that looked like Ardi.

Natural Selection May Not Produce The Best Organisms
Species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will also find examples of variations in bacteria. However they remain bacteria. Immunity likewise does not bring about morphological changes required to establish macroevolutionary change.

Are mutations the cause of evolution?
Genetic Entropy



So providing examples of a small variations within kind is not proof of evolution. Neither are your problematic, everchanging, presumptive computer models that use probabilities as insertion values. Creationists alike can use models to give creationist dates.

What you have are fossils from the Cambrian explosion that illustrates the dramatic appearance of various life forms. The rest is theoretical, presumptive and hopefull.

How about this one below that suggests life is 10 billion years old and predates the formation of the earth. Evos have a plethora of complicated nonsence, that is theoretical and debated, to offer up as evidence for evolution. Just pick the stuff you like and ignore the rest as evos suggest creationists do.

Genome increase as a clock for the origin and evolution of life

 

[Skwim]

One of the comments most often hear from creationiste on this forum is "Show me an example of one species turning into another"

The word species has more than one definition.
I use the word as meaning a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.
This means that for example dogs and wolfs are the same species, but cats and dogs are not.

While this is a convenient definition because it's true in almost all cases of interbreeding organisms, there are the exceptions, which make the definition highly suspect if not invalid. Now, whether these individual exceptions eventually undergo reclassification as the dog did, from Canis familiaris to Canis lupus familiaris, assigning one of them to the same species taxon as the other remains to be seen. In the mean time we have examples of successfully interbreeding species such as Camelus bactrianus, the Bactrian camel, and Camelus dromedarius, the Arabian (dromedary) camel, which when mated produce fertile one humped offspring (some males are born infertile). Then there's Canis latrans, the coyote, that has successfully interbred with Canis lupus lycaon, the eastern wolf, to produce a fairly large population of hybrids. Even species from different genera have been found to successfully interbreed. When the California Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula californiae) and the Corn Snake (Elaphe guttata guttata) are crossed they produce fertile progeny. And, of course, not all organisms reproduce by mating.

This is why it's been said, "The traditional criterion of a species being interfertile between members of the species and, under natural circumstances, at least partially intersterile with members of another species is subject to too many qualifications to be useful in practice."
Source: Douglas M. Considine, ed., Van Nostrad's Scientific Encyclopedia 8th ed.

 

[Valjean]

Some examples of observed speciation: Some More Observed Speciation Events

A more in depth discussion of speciation: Observed Instances of Speciation

 

[camanintx]

Salamanders are meant to share a common ancestor with a frog. As a creationist I'd say frogs are a 'kind' and salamanders are another 'kind'.

Except "salamander" is the common name for a whole order of about 500 species. Would you consider the congo snake (Amphiuma means) to be the same "kind" as the the Hellbender (Cryptobranchus alleganiensis)?

How about this one below that suggests life is 10 billion years old and predates the formation of the earth. Evos have a plethora of complicated nonsence, that is theoretical and debated, to offer up as evidence for evolution. Just pick the stuff you like and ignore the rest as evos suggest creationists do.

Genome increase as a clock for the origin and evolution of life

Did you even bother to read the reviewer comments in your own link? Ignore my ***.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Until I see a turnip give birth to an elephant, I'll just stick to ancient myths for my understanding of the universe, thank you very much.

 

[lunakilo]

Why do you say they are not different species?

From the wikepedia link you give it says (my bold)

Hmm, it seems I just can't read.

I was sure I read that the reason they didn't interbreed was that their behaviour was different, not that they couldn't.

I must have mixed up 2 different pages in my head, sorry.

 

[lunakilo]

They wouldn't be right if you would throw out the entire theory of evolution. You can even dispose of the gravitational theory and they still wound't be right.



Yes.

Nice article.

But since it is not a controlled where you start with one species of salamander and then see the development of new species it could also be 'explained' by God just made them like that.

I am looking for an example where you can prove you started out with one specied and ended op with more than one.

One of the reasons I like the London Underground mosquito example is that we know when the London Underground was build, so we know that prior to that yhe London Underground mosquito didn't exist (though I guess you could imagine it lived in caves or something )

 

[lunakilo]

There are several examples... The Evening Primrose species O.gigas speciated due to a polyploidy event and can no longer reproduce with it's parent population O. lamarckiana.

A good example of polyploid speciation in mammals are the Golden and the Plains Viscacha Rats.

The Kew Primrose is an example of seciation via. hybridization. They can not interbreed with either of their parent species, but are interfertile with themselves.

Just a few examples for you.

And yes, the London Underground Mosquitoes count as there are genetic barriers to interbreeding with the parent species. Indeed as more research has gone on, we are finding evidence that there may actually be several species of London underground mosquitoes.

wa:do

Can you provide me with links to some relevant pages?

 

[lunakilo]

Phylogentic trees based on measures of genetic similarity combined witih molecular dating provides good evidence of speciation. This fits well with evolution and terribly with creationists theories because species do not conform to limited kinds or suddenly appear but rather shower a pattern of divergence and continous change. Its also makes a mockery of humans being the product of special creation because we are part of animalia which in turn makes up a small part of the Eucaryotes

As has already been mentioned there are numerous examples of speciation out there if you are more concerned with what is observable on during a human lifetime but its important to keep the above in mind

I agree with you, but creationists would just claim that your startingpoint is wrong.
That the real picture is more like this:

 

[camanintx]

I agree with you, but creationists would just claim that your startingpoint is wrong.
That the real picture is more like this:

They could (and they do), but they would have to ignore all of the empirical evidence we have for the bottom half of the chart.

 

[lunakilo]

They could (and they do), but they would have to ignore all of the empirical evidence we have for the bottom half of the chart.

Or place it in one og the current species.

If you are looking at "A" which is a predesessor to species "B", "C" and "D" which are currently alive, then you can "A" is really a "B" (or "C" or "D" if that makes you happier) and the data would still fit your chart.

 

[painted wolf]

Here you go... some of these papers are not available on the internets unfortunately. Where possible I'll link you to pages that discuss the work.

Primrose:
de Vries, H. 1905. Species and varieties, their origin by mutation. (not online)
History of Horticulture - De Vries, Hugo 1848-1935
Species and Varieties, Their Origin by Mutation by Hugo de Vries - Project Gutenberg
http://www.esp.org/foundations/genetics/classical/holdings/v/hdv-00.pdf#search='Hugo de Vries
Hugo de Vries on heredity, 1889-1903. Statistics, ... [Isis. 1999] - PubMed result

Golden and Plains Viscacha Rats
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2004.00331.x/abstract
You can find the pdf. here: http://lem.dm.cl/publicaciones/pdf/2004/Whole genome duplication Biol J Linn Soc 2004.pdf
Desert dreams: seeking the secret mammals of the salt pans | Natural History | Find Articles at BNET

Kew Primrose
The Cytology of Primula kewensis and of other related Primula Hybrids
SpringerLink - Journal of Genetics, Volume 20, Number 3
SpringerLink - Molecular and General Genetics MGG, Volume 13, Number 1
What Is Primula Kewensis? | eHow.com

Experimental Evidence for the Appearance of New Species - Softpedia

Hope these help.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

When creationists say something like "No one has seen one species evolve into a completely different species", in their head they're imagining something like a dog giving birth to a cat.

All that shows is just how ignorant they are.

 

[Oneatatime]

I agree with you, but creationists would just claim that your startingpoint is wrong.
That the real picture is more like this:

They could and probably would which is one of the reasons why I don't bother wasting my time debating with creationists directly. You can't reason with somone who acceptence of evidence is dependent on whether or not that evidence is consistant with their arbtirary beliefs. Such people deserve our pity and shoud be excluded from discussions lest they ruin them with their uninformed and immovable beliefs.