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Spin-off from "I am a Christian/Catholic..." thread

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
What? Basically you're saying, "If you don't agree with me, then you didn't think about the matter enough."

Yes, in this case, that's true. However, it's more accurate to say that if you don't agree with logic and reason, you haven't thought enough about it.

Imagine if we all discussed things that way. "Trust me buddy, you would agree with me if you thought about it. You don't agree with me so you probably haven't thought about it."

Well, as I've said more than once in this thread, there are many issues that aren't like this. If you think life starts at conception and abortions are wrong, that's your opinion, and I have no problem with it other than I disagree. However, the issue of homosexuality has no such grey area. As I said, it's cut and dry.

So, yes, there are certain issues that can be discussed this way, and there are others than can't.

Absolutely wonderful Mball. And to think I had respect for you.

I'm sure it's hard for you to hear this, but the truth hurts sometimes. I'm not going to avoid saying just to avoid hurting some feelings, not here, at least.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Yes, in this case, that's true. However, it's more accurate to say that if you don't agree with logic and reason, you haven't thought enough about it.
Essentially, you're saying that you are absolutely right and cannot be wrong. Maybe you should think about that just a bit more. I think maybe then you'd agree with me.

Well, as I've said more than once in this thread, there are many issues that aren't like this. If you think life starts at conception and abortions are wrong, that's your opinion, and I have no problem with it other than I disagree. However, the issue of homosexuality has no such grey area. As I said, it's cut and dry.
You're right. It is cut and dry. For a religious person, engaging in homosexual sex acts is wrong 100% of the time.


I'm sure it's hard for you to hear this, but the truth hurts sometimes. I'm not going to avoid saying just to avoid hurting some feelings, not here, at least.

Not at all. I'm used to such ignorant opinions from the non-religious. However, I though that you were among the few non-religious people with well-thought opinions.
 

blackout

Violet.
You're right. It is cut and dry. For a religious person, engaging in homosexual sex acts is wrong 100% of the time.

....because you are more interested in listening to someones interpretation of a book,
than to the hearts, loves, desires and dreams of the human beings
actually living their lives all around you.

And your statement is false.
Only SOME religions judge homosexuality as wrong.
And then not even everyone in those religions agrees.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Essentially, you're saying that you are absolutely right and cannot be wrong. Maybe you should think about that just a bit more. I think maybe then you'd agree with me.

Nope, this is very simple. This is no different than talking about what 1,267+7,518 equals. There's only one true answer when you think about it.

You're right. It is cut and dry. For a religious person, engaging in homosexual sex acts is wrong 100% of the time.

Yes, that's true. What's also cut and dry is that engaging in homosexuality is not, in reality, wrong in any way, no matter what a book says.

Not at all. I'm used to such ignorant opinions from the non-religious. However, I though that you were among the few non-religious people with well-thought opinions.

I am. As I said, I understand that it's not something you want to hear, but I'm not going to not say it just because of that. I also understand that it helps you to see it as an ignorant opinion. It makes you feel better to just write it off as arrogant and ignorant. I get that. It's still true, though.

As I've said, there are only two reasons to believe homosexuality is wrong:

1) A book says so.
2) You don't like it/are disgusted by it.

Neither of those takes any thinking about the subject, and both of them are debunked after thinking about it.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And your statement is false.
Only SOME religions judge homosexuality as wrong.
And then not even everyone in those religions agrees.

I think that's actually an important point. It's just as possible and easy to interpret the Bible in a way that homosexuality is not wrong as it is to interpret it as saying it is wrong. I think it shows how with a little thought one can get past the whole thinking it's wrong thing.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
....because you are more interested in listening to someones interpretation of a book,
than to the hearts, loves, desires and dreams of the human beings
actually living their lives all around you.
Yep. That's it. I'm just an evil people-hater who's obsessed with my archaic ideas. Oh my how you've caught me. [/sarcasm]

And your statement is false.
Only SOME religions judge homosexuality as wrong.
And then not even everyone in those religions agrees.

The Bible makes it very clear that participation in homosexual sex acts is wrong.


Yes, that's true. What's also cut and dry is that engaging in homosexuality is not, in reality, wrong in any way, no matter what a book says.
Oh yeah, I forgot. You're the final authority on right and wrong.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Yep. That's it. I'm just an evil people-hater who's obsessed with my archaic ideas. Oh my how you've caught me. [/sarcasm]

Nobody said you were evil or a people-hater. I think you're intelligent and a generally good person. It's because of that that I think you haven't thought enough about homosexuality.

The Bible makes it very clear that participation in homosexual sex acts is wrong.

First, no, it doesn't. Second, it makes it just as "clear" that eating shellfish is wrong, too. I'm guessing you don't have a problem with that. Third, how much thought does it take to just believe what a Bible tells you?

Oh yeah, I forgot. You're the final authority on right and wrong.

Nope, that would be logic and reason, which both say that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.
 

blackout

Violet.
The Bible makes it very clear that participation in homosexual sex acts is wrong.

Aparantely very clear to some and not clear at all to others.

Besides that, you are speaking only of christianity...
not religion in general.

Just take a look in the forum directory.

Your bible does not equate religion... or a religious life...
just YOUR religious life. The literalistic biblical christian kind.
(which of course requires your bible to be what it is)

To many millions of religious people,
your bible is just another book.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Nobody said you were evil or a people-hater. I think you're intelligent and a generally good person. It's because of that that I think you haven't thought enough about homosexuality.
If you knew me at all, you would know that this is not the case. Hence, the reason why I find your postulation so ridiculous.


First, no, it doesn't.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination"~Leviticus 18:22. It doesn't get much clearer.

Second, it makes it just as "clear" that eating shellfish is wrong, too. I'm guessing you don't have a problem with that.
Ahh yes. And I would agree with you. I should not have phrased my statement so poorly.

Third, how much thought does it take to just believe what a Bible tells you?
It takes a lot of thought to believe what the Bible says as true and to logically conclude that it is such.




Aparantely very clear to some and not clear at all to others.
It says that it's wrong.

Besides that, you are speaking only of christianity...
not religion in general.
I'm speaking of a significant amount of the world population which I'm sure includes homosexuals.

Just take a look in the forum directory.

Your bible does not equate religion... or a religious life...
just YOUR religious life. The literalistic biblical christian kind.
(which of course requires your bible to be what it is)

To many millions of religious people,
your bible is just another book.
I KNOW that. However, I am only representing MY religious beliefs. I thought it would be obvious that if I say religious I mean in the manner that I am religious.
 

blackout

Violet.
I KNOW that. However, I am only representing MY religious beliefs. I thought it would be obvious that if I say religious I mean in the manner that I am religious.

Well, to someone not of your religion, it comes off as a false statement.
Why not just speak accurately?
 

blackout

Violet.
I didn't know that I had to mention that I am not talking about all religions.

You don't "have to" do anything.

I'm simply telling you that your statements do not read well/accurately
to those of other religions.
Using the word religion generally... as opposed to "my religion"...
in a forum where there are dozens of specifically different religions
is not helpful to comprehensive communication.

Take what I say, or leave it. :shrug:
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If you knew me at all, you would know that this is not the case. Hence, the reason why I find your postulation so ridiculous.

What's not the case? You're not a good, intelligent person? Or you have thought enough about homosexuality?

Listen, I don't need to know you for this. It's simple. If you think homosexuality is wrong, you haven't thought much about it.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination"~Leviticus 18:22. It doesn't get much clearer.

Then, why is lesbianism wrong?

Ahh yes. And I would agree with you. I should not have phrased my statement so poorly.

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you take what you just quoted to be true, but not the one in the very same section that claims eating shellfish is an abomination?

It takes a lot of thought to believe what the Bible says as true and to logically conclude that it is such.

No, it doesn't. It takes reading it and being told it's true. That's about it. That's the whole point. If you did then think about it, you'd have no reason to believe it's true.

It says that it's wrong.

Actually, it says in that quote that male homosexuality is an abomination, the same thing it says about shellfish. So, homosexuality is as wrong as eating shellfish, in other words. Let's go on a crusade against crab cakes!

I'm speaking of a significant amount of the world population which I'm sure includes homosexuals.

I KNOW that. However, I am only representing MY religious beliefs. I thought it would be obvious that if I say religious I mean in the manner that I am religious.

Um...no. That's not how it works. If you say "A religious person like me" or something to that effect, it works. If you just say "A religious person", it tends to mean..."A religious person".
 

stars

Member
deserve?


“The homosexual experience may be deemed an Illness, a
disorder, a privilege, or a curse; it may be deemed
worthy of a ‘cure,’ rectified, embraced or endured.
But it exists… It occurs independently of the
forms of its expression; it is bound up in that
mysterious and unstable area where sexual desire and
emotional longing meet; it reaches into the core of
what makes a human being who he or she is.”
Andrew Sullivan, Virtually Normal, (N. York:
Knopf, 1995) p 17.
“TRUE SELF” AND GAY SPIRITUALITY « Prayers and Reflections
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
What's not the case? You're not a good, intelligent person? Or you have thought enough about homosexuality?

Listen, I don't need to know you for this. It's simple. If you think homosexuality is wrong, you haven't thought much about it.
I have thought about it plenty. The fact that I didn't reach the same conclusion that you reached doesn't mean that I haven't thought about it.


Then, why is lesbianism wrong?
According to some halakhic opinions it isn't.


OK, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you take what you just quoted to be true, but not the one in the very same section that claims eating shellfish is an abomination?
I worded my statement poorly. Noahide law within Jewish law is handled different. Homosexuality, then, is not prohibited because of Leviticus 18:22 but because of other sources. We know this because the chapter starts with "Devar Al B'nei Yisrael" which means "speak to the children of Israel". In essence, this particular verse only applies to Jews anyways.

The prohibition for non-Jews comes from the verse in Genesis 2:24 which says, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."



No, it doesn't. It takes reading it and being told it's true. That's about it. That's the whole point. If you did then think about it, you'd have no reason to believe it's true.
That's incorrect. If one reads something in the Bible that contradicts his/her natural sensibilities then one will have to think about the conflict and decide whether or not the conflict is valid.

That requires a huge amount of thought. I guess that you may have thought over it and concluded that it is false, but that is not the only reasonable conclusion.


Actually, it says in that quote that male homosexuality is an abomination, the same thing it says about shellfish. So, homosexuality is as wrong as eating shellfish, in other words. Let's go on a crusade against crab cakes!

I'm speaking of a significant amount of the world population which I'm sure includes homosexuals.
Shellfish is prohibited for Jews. It's not prohibited for Noahides. Leviticus 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel saying". Whenever a section of law begins like that, in Jewish law, it means that it does not apply to someone who is not part of the "children of Israel."
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I have thought about it plenty. The fact that I didn't reach the same conclusion that you reached doesn't mean that I haven't thought about it.

It either means that or it means you aren't very smart. I tend to think you're at the very least moderately smart, which only leaves the other option.

According to some halakhic opinions it isn't.

So, you don't have a problem with two women getting married or going at it?

I worded my statement poorly. Noahide law within Jewish law is handled different. Homosexuality, then, is not prohibited because of Leviticus 18:22 but because of other sources. We know this because the chapter starts with "Devar Al B'nei Yisrael" which means "speak to the children of Israel". In essence, this particular verse only applies to Jews anyways.

The prohibition for non-Jews comes from the verse in Genesis 2:24 which says, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."

That seems pretty arbitrary. That doesn't say anything about homosexuality being wrong.

That's incorrect. If one reads something in the Bible that contradicts his/her natural sensibilities then one will have to think about the conflict and decide whether or not the conflict is valid.

Well, it doesn't even take that. However, the people who do that still aren't thinking much about it. As I said the other reason for thinking homosexuality is wrong is that you dislike it or it disgusts you. So, having the Bible tell you it's wrong, and thinking about whether it conflicts with you disgust of it or not still doesn't involve much thought.

That requires a huge amount of thought. I guess that you may have thought over it and concluded that it is false, but that is not the only reasonable conclusion.

Yes, it is, actually. And no, it doesn't take much thought to say "Hey, I think homosexuality's icky, and this book says it's wrong, so it must be wrong".

Shellfish is prohibited for Jews. It's not prohibited for Noahides. Leviticus 11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel saying". Whenever a section of law begins like that, in Jewish law, it means that it does not apply to someone who is not part of the "children of Israel."

So, basically, Christians have no business using that part of Leviticus to say homosexuality is wrong?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a little different, though. What we're talking about is more like an algebra problem.
It is nothing like an algebra problem. At all. It is a philosophical question.

As I said, there are other things and issues where two intelligent people will get different answers even when applying logic and reason. This isn't one of them.
I do not share the assumptions that you base your morality upon.

Well, it's very simple. There's nothing wrong with homosexuality or same-sex marriage.
Except that is a subjective statement. Well, it's very simple. Blue is a horrendous colour.

So, you're just letting someone else tell you what's right and wrong, which doesn't really involve thinking for yourself.
It need not be thoughtless to accept another's words.

Also, the only place that book really says homosexuality is wrong is the same place it says not to eat shellfish and not to wear clothes blended of two different fabrics.
This is false.

It's not arrogant, it's just looking at the situation objectively and not being afraid to call it like it is.
You might be right, it could just be an ignorant theory. Based on the non-comprehension of the subjective nature of individual morality.

No, it doesn't. The fact that an intelligent person using logic and reason wouldn't come to the conclusion you have is what reflects on how much you've thought about the matter.
My base of morality is different than yours, thus when I use logic I come to a different conclusion.

The whole idea of that tutelage is to learn it for yourself, though.
Indeed... and?

Yes, if you're just accepting his answer without understanding why it's the answer. As I just said, the whole point of his teaching you is for you to understand the problem for yourself, so that when given a similar problem, you can figure it out for yourself.
And?

Going back to the analogy. Two people, whose highest mathemetics has been long division are given a calculus problem on a test. There is a Math PhD in the room who says the answer is X. One person is ready to write that down, but the other starts saying, no, the answer is Y, if you thought for yourself you'd come up with Y too.

Which answer would a logical person put on the test? X or Y?

In some cases it does. Homosexuality/same-sex marriage is one of those cases.
It does not in any case. The conclusion never reflects on the amount of thought put into the answer.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It is nothing like an algebra problem. At all. It is a philosophical question.

It's like an algebra problem in that it has a correct and incorrect answer.

I do not share the assumptions that you base your morality upon.

OK, how does that respond to the quote it was under?

Except that is a subjective statement.

No, it's not. It's objective. No harm comes from homosexual acts, therefore there's nothing wrong with it.

Well, it's very simple. Blue is a horrendous colour.

Yes, that's subjective. That's why you're welcome to dislike homosexuality and even be disgusted by it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

It need not be thoughtless to accept another's words.

It is if you're doing it simply because they're in a position of authority, and you're just accepting what they say.

This is false.

OK, then prove it.

You might be right, it could just be an ignorant theory.

It could be, but it's not. It's a very aware theory, actually.

Based on the non-comprehension of the subjective nature of individual morality.

No, I understand that. However, we've lost sight of the fact that there's a difference between "I don't like it" and "It's wrong".

My base of morality is different than yours, thus when I use logic I come to a different conclusion.

Yes, your base of morality is a book and what you've been told. Mine is logic and reason. So, if you use logic after starting from faulty premises, you will come to the wrong conclusion. However, if you use logic and reason, meaning you use correct premises and logic, you'll come to the correct conclusion.

Indeed... and?

And that's not what you were saying. You were saying it was OK to just accept that tutelage and go with the authorityon the subject. What you're supposed to do is have that teacher explain why and how it works, not just that it's true.


And that's not what's happening when taking someone else's authority on homosexuality. That consists of "Homosexuality is wrong. Why? Because this book says so. How do we know that book is correct? Because a bunch of people said so.".

Going back to the analogy. Two people, whose highest mathemetics has been long division are given a calculus problem on a test. There is a Math PhD in the room who says the answer is X. One person is ready to write that down, but the other starts saying, no, the answer is Y, if you thought for yourself you'd come up with Y too.

Which answer would a logical person put on the test? X or Y?

Well, that's not quite an accurate depiction of what's going on here. In that case it would be more like: The math PHD says the answer is this. Person A goes to write down the answer. Person B says "Why is that the answer?". The math PHD explains why and how it works in all situations, and person B sees how it works, so he uses the answer.

It does not in any case. The conclusion never reflects on the amount of thought put into the answer.

Yes, it does. If an intelligent person spend enough time using logic and reason on a problem of this nature, they will come to one particular answer. If they don't come to that answer, they haven't thought about it enough.

To use an analogy like yours: It's like being in algebra class and working on an example in class. You go through it quickly and think you've gotten the right answer. You call the teacher over and show it to her. She says "No, that's not quite right. Just work with it a little more, and you'll get it". You work on it for another 5 minutes and realize what your mistake was, and correct it and get the right answer.
 
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