spin offs

[shunyadragon]

Why a bike though when you could have a chariot which is way older?

Many chariots had spin offs and they were very very sharp.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why a bike though when you could have a chariot which is way older?

Much like the OP with religion, I've decided that an arbitrary point in the evolution of wheeled conveyances is the "original" and I'll just ignore the things that came before it.

 

[Jedster]

Many chariots had spin offs and they were very very sharp.

yes, saw that in Ben-Hur

 

[sojourner]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

for me it's kind of like cloning. A community needs diversity in order to survive. Otherwise you end up with genetic degradation. Spin offs are, therefore, a good thing.

 

[MichaelleahciM]

Christianity is not a spin off from Judaism. A lot of Christianity is nothing like Judaism. In fact, the New Testament in many ways is totally different from the Old Testament - 'turn the cheek' and 'an eye for an eye' - diametrically opposite!

I agree with this, if one were to exam Jesus from a Jewish perspective, which he should be. Jesus was a Rabi, born, raised and died a devout Jew. He acted to end defilement of the Temple. If one were to look to Jewish writings about the Mashiach, whom Jesus was hoped to be. Jesus clearly was not the anticipated Mashiach. It should have ended at his death. But apparently the idea of Jesus played well with a vast number of oppressed. So the legend continued, as have the false claims, that Jesus would return from the dead. But then the Watch Tower should have dissolved into oblivion also when the date of Jesus's return failed. Not once but twice and still the faith held tight. Which takes me back to my earlier statement that once a faiths perfect and finial word of God according to the faiths teachings has been proven to be false. That faith is obligated to disband as an utter failure.

 

[YoursTrue]

But how? if it's something you identify, then it's obviously not "God" but rather either an idol or simply just creation itself.

So you're saying God does not let himself be known. (shrug. OK.)

 

[VoidoftheSun]

So you're saying God does not let himself be known. (shrug. OK.)

Nope.

I am asking what you are attaching the word/name "God" to.

 

[shunyadragon]

So you're saying God does not let himself be known. (shrug. OK.)

If God lets God be known it would be on a more universal perspective and not the narrow cultural view of one religion or another that defines God from one cultural perspective like the ancient religions. The exclusive belief, 'my way or the highway' would be an unfortunate tribal egocentric human perspective.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

If God lets God be known it would be on a more universal perspective and nothe narrow cultural view of one religion or another that defines God from one cultural perspective like the ancient religions. The exclusive belief, 'my way or the highway' would be an unfortunate tribal egocentric human perspective.

Well as a Baha'i at least you'd understand that God is utterly transcendent, formless and beyond even deity itself (which is true understanding brought through Shi'ism), but all-pervading.
Prophet's being likened to reflections of rays from the sun, being intermediaries and the "voices of God" on earth, which basically sums it up very accurately.
That is pretty close to what I believe.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

That is very likely the worst argument for Judaism that I've encountered.

 

[Sundance]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

I may be repeating some things here, I’m not sure.

I’m not certain regarding Islam or the Bahá’í Faith, but the concerning Christianity, technically it didn’t change anything (insofar as there was anything particular to change, which there wasn’t strictly speaking). All Christianity is is the product of the idiosyncratic interpretations of a Jewish preacher, not the product of a divergence in interpreting a particular sect of Judaism, which – in the 1st century – was not monolithic. Judaism in the first century had a few different sects, each with their own theological understandings. The Pharisees comprised one, The Sadducees had another interpretation, The Essenes another, and the Teachings of Jesus constituted another. The Samaritans had another from even further back in time.

(I’m curious: what if the Sadducees had also survived the destruction of the Second Temple? What would Judaism be like today?)


In my opinion, it paints a rather innacurate picture of things when trying to retroactively apply modern realities to the world of the 1st century.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

Feel free. But let's have an outline of what these religions teach so we can make an informed decision. Because to say they are spinoffs in that way is wrong.

Judaism arose because of a covenant of God with the people of Israel. This after one single rule (not to eat fruit) couldn't be kept, and humanity became messed up, and the world was almost destroyed. Abraham led people back to righteousness, and Moses gave the law.

However, there was a problem with this covenant. Basically, the ten ground rules weren't being kept. They hardened their hearts and continued to fall away. Or rather, there was a problem with their relationship with God. They were only really supposed to be a chosen people, treat others like they wanted to be treated, and treat God as though they were are bride of God. The Bible repeatedly describes this as a marriage. Jeremiah 3:14 for instance. But the Jews did not understand this as a marriage.

You ever tried to teach a classroom? You ever had life experience that you were emotionally incested in passing on? So you just want to connect with your students and tell them stories and stuff. Suppose you are principal, there's no school board, and you've decided to host a course.
But they are completely indi to your stories, and ask you "Is this gonna be on the test?" Since you own the school, you don't even need grades, and can just do pass fail for the course. But they so totally miss the spirit of the class, so you just give them busywork.

I've actually seen this happen (not quite that way), my fifth grade teacher just wanted to be friendly, but our class pushed her so far that she snapped and started handing out hard tests and such.

This was basically the Jews. The ten commandments could be boiled down to two laws, love God and love your neighbour as yourself. But they lost sight of this, and focused on rules. So God gave them 613 rules, of which, only the first 10 are actually important. And of these, only #7 (to love God) is actually worth keeping. Additionally, there were five books of legal and priestly commands. And then there were numerous other guidelines.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

But all of this was fluff as long as Jews had the mindset "Is this gonna be on the test?" Enter Jesus. This was a Jewish man, but also possibly God incarnate. I don't think that Jesus's divinity is the main focus though, so let's skip that until later. Jesus took one look at these laws and figured out that they were screwed up.
1. They used to have a direct relationship with God. However, now the average person thought of God as residing only in the temple, and for that matter, only behind a curtain. I want you to watch this scene (Wizard of Oz) and tell me what your impressions are.

2. There were people suffering from mental diseases ( "demon possession") and people suffering from skin conditions including leprosy. The Jewish people could have helped them, but instead categorized then all as unclean.
3. There were also a number of neglected widows and orphans, who the priesthood decided to rob instead of taking care of. I'm currently playing Dragon Quest 8, and there's a picture presented by one of the temples, where a mass of people are talking about how their gave 5000 gold, and they're wondering if it's enough to get into Heaven. This is basically the scenario here, some of the priests have lost sight of the prophets entirely and turned to consideration of profit.
4. There is a class of people known as "sinners". How are these sinners here? Well, some of them indeed are robbers and murderers, but some of those who are labeled such are actually people who can't work on the Sabbath. They have to make wnds meet. The means of being right with the temple is to offer a sacrifice of atonement, usually a turtledove or goat. They slaughter these animals in such a manner and amount that PETA would not approve and they charge money for the sacrifice animals. No money, your sins aren't forgiven. You're a sinner. And you'll probably die a sinner, because not being forgiven by the temple means getting cast out of the temple. Being unable to request support from your Jewish brothers and sisters, and sinking into poverty.

So as you can see, this isn't a spinoff. This is a reform attempt that went sour. Whether Jesus is God or not, Jesus taught of a return to relationship with God, a human connection with God, being able to share your problems. The Jews decided that wasn't cool, do they turned Jesus over to Roman authorities.

Islam is likewise not a spinoff of Christianity. But it's not a reform either.
Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia - Wikipedia
Mecca, at the time of Muhammad, had a dizzying variety of different religions. And like our modern society, they were very tolerant. Probably more so, because I do not think our modern society is as tolerant as it claims. This guy on the other hand was excused for 15 years while he did his Joseph Smith routine, and condemned all religions but his own. Islam is not based on Christianity. It contains a number of heresies, like Jesus didn't die on the cross, that Jesus is not from God, that the Trinity is Father, Son, and Mary, and routinely claims that the Bible is corrupted because it doesn't mention anything about Islam. Actually it does mention Islam. But you won't like it.
Galatians 1:6-10
2 Timothy 4:3-4
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Isaiah 5:20

Bahai is not a spinoff of Islam either but an attempt to disguise scary world government with sweet sounding words about tolerance and unity. But if you cross their notion that "all religions are basically the same", prepare to get shunned at best, and probably tracked down at worst. Even Islam despises it
Pakistani Shia cleric warns of dangers posed by Baha'is & Ahmadis
and any Christian ought to notice that it seems very okay with the agenda of Babylon in Revelation, so long as the "world is brought together" they don't seem to care that this government tramples on national rights in favor of multinational unelected leaders.

 

[shunyadragon]

In the questionable use of 'spin-offs' all the religions of the world evolve over time diversify and divide. Spin-offs in this thread is more a derogatory accusation like the world 'religion.'

The claim of Judaism is a conflicting paradox as to what the relationship between humanity and Creation with God. If God exists it would a contradiction that God's relationship to humanity would a covenant with one tribe in one place in time in a chain of 'spin-offs' since Adam and Eve.

T here are alternatives to this view like in the Baha'i Faith that the history of humanity is the product of both a physical and spiritual evolution of the attributes of God. No derogatory accusations of spin-offs needed.

 

[shunyadragon]

Bahai is not a spinoff of Islam either but an attempt to disguise scary world government with sweet sounding words about tolerance and unity. But if you cross their notion that "all religions are basically the same", prepare to get shunned at best, and probably tracked down at worst. Even Islam despises it
Pakistani Shia cleric warns of dangers posed by Baha'is & Ahmadis
and any Christian ought to notice that it seems very okay with the agenda of Babylon in Revelation, so long as the "world is brought together" they don't seem to care that this government tramples on national rights in favor of multinational unelected leaders.

First the Baha'i Faith does not believe "all religions are basically the same." These statements reflect your dark side concerning what others believe, and pretty much does not reflect the reality of the Baha'i Faith

 

[halbhh]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

Consider --

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

... 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
-- Jesus, in Matthew chapter 7

In Christianity the Law is still upheld (Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.).

But through Christ we uphold the law with the profound help of the transformation/renewal from Christ to help us. He cleanses us and renews us and changes us, so that we can begin to do all the true essence of the law, as you see in verse 12 above. To Love our Neighbors as Ourselves, and to Love God with all our mind, all of our heart, all of our strength, and all of our soul.

He requires we follow the Law, as we can see clearly above in the quote.

(the next verses after the quote above, verses 24-27, tell how those that do as He says will endure and make it, and those that don't do as He says will be destroyed)

 

[YoursTrue]

Consider --

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

... 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
-- Jesus, in Matthew chapter 7

In Christianity the Law is still upheld (Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.).

But through Christ we uphold the law with the profound help of the transformation/renewal from Christ to help us. He cleanses us and renews us and changes us, so that we can begin to do all the true essence of the law, as you see in verse 12 above. To Love our Neighbors as Ourselves, and to Love God with all our mind, all of our heart, all of our strength, and all of our soul.

He requires we follow the Law, as we can see clearly above in the quote.

(the next verses after the quote above, verses 24-27, tell how those that do as He says will endure and make it, and those that don't do as He says will be destroyed)

While many may disagree, we are born from sinners. Particularly the first two.

 

[metis]

Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

I can't afford either of them.

 

[metis]

As within all religions, interpretations and applications within Judaism can and has varied over the centuries, thus there really is no "original" that can or could be agreed upon.

Secondly, how one perceives Torah is of fundamental importance as to how we may interpret and/or apply the Laws. Generally speaking, an orthodox Jew looks at Torah quite differently than a Reform Jew, and a chasid even more different than both in some areas.

Finally, some say that all Jews are in really "reformed Jews", but that only some are willing to admit it. IOW, Judaism is not a static religion.

 

[lukethethird]

There are so many spinoffs of Judaism.

Christianity was the first, changing the teaching of obedience to the law to one of belief, and making a man into God (at least the orthodox version).

Then Islam came, a spin off of a spin off.

Most recently we have Baha'i, a spin off of a spin off of a spin off.

All of them change the original message.


Why should I take all these spin offs seriously when I have the original? Which would you rather have: a copy of a Van Gogh, or the original?

I'd rather have a copy of a Van Gogh than have to pick a religion.

 

[halbhh]

While many may disagree, we are born from sinners. Particularly the first two.

Yes, it's practically the entire story of all the Bible in a way. Broken trust in God, and then finally now a full reconciliation and restored relationship with Him.