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Spirit first?.......or substance first?
- Thread starter Thief
- Start date
Three questions:
- What beginning?
- How are we to understand "spirit" for the purposes of the question?
- How are we to understand "substance" for the purposes of the question?
clearly, you are assuming that there is a, singular "beginning" to existence. I'm not sure I agree with the assumption.
I do more firmly disagree with your inherent separation of substance and spirit, as if they are separable things...which I don't believe they are.
Your question is therefore ambiguous until you clearly define (as if you haven't before) your terms. And from your prior postings, I'm pretty sure that I will continue to disagree with both your basic premises and your conclusions.
I do more firmly disagree with your inherent separation of substance and spirit, as if they are separable things...which I don't believe they are.
Your question is therefore ambiguous until you clearly define (as if you haven't before) your terms. And from your prior postings, I'm pretty sure that I will continue to disagree with both your basic premises and your conclusions.
I say substance first. There is no evidence of any spirits, while there is a lot of evidence for substance. So, if the spirit will ever turn up, it will be necessarily after the substance.
Ciao
- viole
I voted for the 'spirit first' party and it seems we are leading 1-0 over the materialist party.
But anyway, my beliefs on the subject are: Consciousness is fundamental and the material is a derivative (play/drama) of Consciousness/Spirit.
My signature says 'Brahman Alone is Real'. (I almost want to change that as it may come across as to foreign to westerners).
But anyway, my beliefs on the subject are: Consciousness is fundamental and the material is a derivative (play/drama) of Consciousness/Spirit.
My signature says 'Brahman Alone is Real'. (I almost want to change that as it may come across as to foreign to westerners).
The creation Story is told in the Holy Books, but to date I have found the greatest detail about Creation was given in a Tablet by Abdul'baha. It is the Tablet of the Universe - This is a link to a provisional translation, if one wishes to read it - Tablet of the Universe
It would support Spirit was the Primal Point of creation. This is an extract;
"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification...."
RegardsTony
It would support Spirit was the Primal Point of creation. This is an extract;
"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification...."
RegardsTony
Thief
Rogue Theologian
in the scheme of regression ( a simple technique)...
our telescopes indicate expansion
expansion indicates a central starting point
Thief
Rogue Theologian
spirit turns up after the substance?
as in standing from the dust after the last breath?
(a digression of the topic)
which indicates only that an expansion is taking place now, and has from a predicted point in the past. It does not, however, show that this is the only expansion that has ever been (indeed, a contraction could have preceded this expansion, perhaps infinitely many of them, all followed by periods of expansion...); also there could be/have been many other periods of expansion not involving this universe. cosmologists are still debating this and seeking further data that might shed light onto whether or not ours is the only universe, and exactly how this would happen.
Even though you are so beholden to your artificial dichotomy, it would be nice when posting a survey such as this to include something along the lines of "Neither A nor B" or "Who Knows?" or "Your dichotomy is artificial" or some other alternative choice.
What is even meant by "first" in this context? Is there some sort of queue or choice of priority? If so, how would anyone even know of it?
How is it known that there is a spirit, or that it is separate or distinguishable from substance?
How is it known that there is a spirit, or that it is separate or distinguishable from substance?
miodrag
Member
Define spirit and substance. You probably mean spirit and matter. Since substance originally means the essence. From Latin sub-under and stare-to stand, meaning the basis of everything. And that is spirit. Spirit is the only substance. Both Spirit and matter are eternal, they are simultaneous. There is order in ranking, however. Matter is a potency, an eternal energy of the Spirit. Sometimes this potency is manifested, sometimes it is not. There is no beginning of the cycle of manifestation.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. The physical exists for our education. It's causal nature is perfect for learning. Even though we are trapped in a physical universe it is not who we are. Since one receives so much sensory input from this physical world, it is easy for some to assume that is all there is.
We might be told this is this and that is that, then later told it is not, however you do not understand. It does not matter what you are told. Since we are all Living our Lessons, it's up to each of us to Discover the Real Answers Ourselves.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
"Spirit first?.......or substance first?".
When reading the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, some people interprets this as "a beginning of the entire Universe", but I don´t think so. IMO these stories deals specifically with the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, our Milky Way galaxy.
The ancient mythical/cosmological world picture is cyclical and several creation myths speaks of an eternal creation of formation, dissolution and reformation. That is: Nothing came first but everything has always been there. "Spirit and substance" have always been. With a modern term: "Spirit" = Light and "Substance" = Matter.
It is the Hen & Egg question again and the logical answer is YES to both.
When reading the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, some people interprets this as "a beginning of the entire Universe", but I don´t think so. IMO these stories deals specifically with the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, our Milky Way galaxy.
The ancient mythical/cosmological world picture is cyclical and several creation myths speaks of an eternal creation of formation, dissolution and reformation. That is: Nothing came first but everything has always been there. "Spirit and substance" have always been. With a modern term: "Spirit" = Light and "Substance" = Matter.
It is the Hen & Egg question again and the logical answer is YES to both.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Neither. God is self created, so matter may have been created simultaneously /abstract question. Self created infers no 'first'
Thief
Rogue Theologian
and you ask for evidence of me?which indicates only that an expansion is taking place now, and has from a predicted point in the past. It does not, however, show that this is the only expansion that has ever been (indeed, a contraction could have preceded this expansion, perhaps infinitely many of them, all followed by periods of expansion...); also there could be/have been many other periods of expansion not involving this universe. cosmologists are still debating this and seeking further data that might shed light onto whether or not ours is the only universe, and exactly how this would happen.
Even though you are so beholden to your artificial dichotomy, it would be nice when posting a survey such as this to include something along the lines of "Neither A nor B" or "Who Knows?" or "Your dichotomy is artificial" or some other alternative choice.
show me another universe in a telescope
the one universe (one word) that we do see......has a starting point
would you like to reiterate your choice?
Spirit first?
or substance?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
in the scheme of regression......Someone had to be First
Thief
Rogue Theologian
the comparison of the hen and egg fails.....
the egg was previous .....the chicken evolved
the universe, I believe, is a creation wrought by Spirit
Spirit first
Why would a spirit, if it were to actually exist, necessarily be immaterial?
Still waiting...