Spirit (Immortal) & Resurrection

[Kolibri]

Moving a topic out of the thread "The Trinity."

Is "spirit" as defined in the Hebrew Scriptures suddenly changed when we read the Christian Greek Scriptures?
Do all somehow gain immortal spirits upon becoming Christians?
Or is immortality something that is gained after death and only with a resurrection to heavenly life?
Do Christians really die upon death, thus needing a resurrection?
Is the idea that Christians having an immortal soul while still human a variant of the serpent's lie in the Garden of Eden?
Is immortality even a Biblical hope held out for humans that will stay humans?
(the last question is for those that feel God's Kingdom will be restored as an earthy government.)
My position to these questions will be: no, no, yes, yes, yes, no.

I am including definitions, as I understand these terms to give us a starting point for this discussion.

• Resurrection.
  A rising up from death. The Greek word a·na′sta·sis literally means “raising up; standing up.” Nine resurrections are mentioned in the Bible, including the resurrection of Jesus by Jehovah God. Although other resurrections were performed through Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter, and Paul, these miracles are clearly attributed to God’s power. The earthly resurrection of “both the righteous and the unrighteous” is essential to God’s purpose. (Ac 24:15) The Bible also mentions a heavenly resurrection, termed “the earlier” or “the first” resurrection, involving the spirit-anointed brothers of Jesus.—Php 3:11; Re 20:5,6; Joh 5:28,29; 11:25.

• Soul.
  The traditional rendering of the Hebrew word ne′phesh and the Greek word psy·khe′. In examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Ge 1:20; 2:7; Nu 31:28; 1Pe 3:21) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both ne′phesh and psy·khe′, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. When referring to doing something with one’s whole soul, it means to do it with one’s whole being, wholeheartedly, or with one’s whole life. (De 6:5; Mt 22:37) In some contexts, these original-language words can be used to refer to the desire or appetite of a living creature. They can also refer to a dead person or a dead body.—Nu 6:6; Pr 23:2; Isa 56:11; Hag 2:13.

• Spirit.
  The Hebrew word ru′ach and the Greek word pneu′ma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.—Ex 35:21; Ps 104:29; Mt 12:43; Lu 11:13

@Yes - the first 5 questions are tailored for your scriptural response (sorry for so many - you may limit your response as you see fit.).
@moorea944 - the last one is for you if you like.

What scriptures would you use to show that, since the advent of Christianity, humans have deathlessness of a spirit body before they die physically?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Moving a topic out of the thread "The Trinity."

Is "spirit" as defined in the Hebrew Scriptures suddenly changed when we read the Christian Greek Scriptures?
Do all somehow gain immortal spirits upon becoming Christians?
Or is immortality something that is gained after death and only with a resurrection to heavenly life?
Do Christians really die upon death, thus needing a resurrection?
Is the idea that Christians having an immortal soul while still human a variant of the serpent's lie in the Garden of Eden?
Is immortality even a Biblical hope held out for humans that will stay humans?
(the last question is for those that feel God's Kingdom will be restored as an earthy government.)
My position to these questions will be: no, no, yes, yes, yes, no.

I am including definitions, as I understand these terms to give us a starting point for this discussion.

• Resurrection.
  A rising up from death. The Greek word a·na′sta·sis literally means “raising up; standing up.” Nine resurrections are mentioned in the Bible, including the resurrection of Jesus by Jehovah God. Although other resurrections were performed through Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter, and Paul, these miracles are clearly attributed to God’s power. The earthly resurrection of “both the righteous and the unrighteous” is essential to God’s purpose. (Ac 24:15) The Bible also mentions a heavenly resurrection, termed “the earlier” or “the first” resurrection, involving the spirit-anointed brothers of Jesus.—Php 3:11; Re 20:5,6; Joh 5:28,29; 11:25.

• Soul.
  The traditional rendering of the Hebrew word ne′phesh and the Greek word psy·khe′. In examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Ge 1:20; 2:7; Nu 31:28; 1Pe 3:21) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both ne′phesh and psy·khe′, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. When referring to doing something with one’s whole soul, it means to do it with one’s whole being, wholeheartedly, or with one’s whole life. (De 6:5; Mt 22:37) In some contexts, these original-language words can be used to refer to the desire or appetite of a living creature. They can also refer to a dead person or a dead body.—Nu 6:6; Pr 23:2; Isa 56:11; Hag 2:13.

• Spirit.
  The Hebrew word ru′ach and the Greek word pneu′ma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.—Ex 35:21; Ps 104:29; Mt 12:43; Lu 11:13

@Yes - the first 5 questions are tailored for your scriptural response (sorry for so many - you may limit your response as you see fit.).
@moorea944 - the last one is for you if you like.

What scriptures would you use to show that, since the advent of Christianity, humans have deathlessness of a spirit body before they die physically?

The Christ is the saviour of the world (Jh & 1Jh)

He will have ALL mankind saved (Tim)

Why do you think this will not happen? Bare in mind, this is now, AFTER the resurrection of the lord in glory and power. Is he the saviour of the world or not?

If he is the saviour of the WORLD, then does that not suggest that their inner self remains alive in some way? That does not mean that there is not part of their self which will not. And if the CC think that there is an immortal soul, (self) then do we not think that this came from God?

 

[Kolibri]

The Christ is the saviour of the world (Jh & 1Jh)

He will have ALL mankind saved (Tim)

Why do you think this will not happen? Bare in mind, this is now, AFTER the resurrection of the lord in glory and power. Is he the saviour of the world or not?

If he is the saviour of the WORLD, then does that not suggest that their inner self remains alive in some way? That does not mean that there is not part of their self which will not. And if the CC think that there is an immortal soul, (self) then do we not think that this came from God?

the question arises, if the person does not die, what purpose is there in a resurrection from the dead? doesn't that hope become meaningless?
Besides that. what verse to you point to exactly that says we do not die at death once we are Christian?

 

[Yes]

Moving a topic out of the thread "The Trinity."

Is "spirit" as defined in the Hebrew Scriptures suddenly changed when we read the Christian Greek Scriptures?

No, not changed. Why do you say 'changed'?

Do all somehow gain immortal spirits upon becoming Christians?

All have an immortal spirit, even those who are not Christians.

However, receiving the Holy Spirit and obeying Jesus gives light to our spirits, thus making our spirits come more alive.

Jesus says he gives life to our spirits.

Or is immortality something that is gained after death and only with a resurrection to heavenly life?

Immorality of our spirits has always been, and through Jesus, our spirits can have true life and light, instead of darkness in prison/hell.

Do Christians really die upon death, thus needing a resurrection?

Our spirits go through the agony of death as our bodies die.

Because of sin, we do not live forever in our bodies. We will have our bodies redeemed.

So stop saying we do not die if we have a spirit that lives.

Is the idea that Christians having an immortal soul while still human a variant of the serpent's lie in the Garden of Eden?

Please learn what a soul is.

The Bible speaks of us in three different ways.


Whenever the bible talks about our spirit, it is concentrating on our spirit, our spirit whether in our body or out of our body.

Whenever the bible talks about our body, it is speaking of a living physical body or a dead physical body.

A soul is a physical body alive with a spirit. The body is dead without the spirit (James 2:26), and the spirit lives on after death of the body.


Refer to 1 Thessalonians. We can see that God will sanctify us through and through, our whole spirit (spirit without a body), soul (spirit and body together), and our body (with or without our spirit/dead or alive). God truly sanctifies us through and through.


1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Yes]

the question arises, if the person does not die, what purpose is there in a resurrection from the dead? doesn't that hope become meaningless?
Besides that. what verse to you point to exactly that says we do not die at death once we are Christian?

Again, please stop saying that we do not die just because our sprits live on.

Our spirits are us. Our spirits go through the agony of death when our physical body dies.

 

[Kolibri]

Why do you say 'changed'?

This may have been me misreading your posts in the other thread. I thought his was your debate with @moorea944 that the OT and the NT taught different things in regard to the spirit.

If you are saying the Bible is consistent the idea that the spirit is some non-fleshly body that dwells as a part of us, then it makes our discussion easier. The verses in the Hebrew Scriptures become just as valid as the Christian Greek Scriptures for the purpose of scripturally establishing what the Bible really teaches.

 

[Kolibri]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This verse need not have anything to do with the "individual" but the you here can be validly understood to be the "congregation." This was a plural "you" with a singular spirit, singular soul, and singular body. What is more 1 Cor 12:12,13 also refer to the congregation as being "one body" and having "one spirit."

"For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:12,13

Instead of simply praying that the congregation be preserved, he prayed for the preservation of its “spirit,” or mental disposition. He also prayed for its “soul,” its life, or existence, and for its “body”—the composite body of Christians anointed for future heavenly life. The prayer thus highlights Paul’s intense concern for the congregation.
-------------------------------
I believe you were shown 1 Thess 5:23 because on the surface it seems to support the idea of an immortal life prior to a resurrection after the death of the flesh.
But that this was an easy misunderstanding to make - considering that in English, "you" plural and "you" singular look and sound identical.

Is there another passage you might want to add to the discussion?

 

[Robert.Evans]

the question arises, if the person does not die, what purpose is there in a resurrection from the dead? doesn't that hope become meaningless?
Besides that. what verse to you point to exactly that says we do not die at death once we are Christian?

Oh I don't suggest we don't die, on the contrary, Heb 9.27 (?) says it is the destiny of all mankind, But then it says, and then to face judgement. Acts also says there is a resurrection of the rightious and unrightious.

Is the soul immortal? Part of it must be as God says of the fore fathers that,To him they are all alive. But part of it must die as he also says ''fear him who can kill both body and soul in Gehenna.''

It is a complicated subject perhaps?

 

[Robert.Evans]

All have an immortal spirit, even those who are not Christians.

So how then is it written, Fear him who can kill both body and soul in the valley of hinnom?

 

[viole]

Oh I don't suggest we don't die, on the contrary, Heb 9.27 (?) says it is the destiny of all mankind, But then it says, and then to face judgement. Acts also says there is a resurrection of the rightious and unrightious.

Is the soul immortal? Part of it must be as God says of the fore fathers that,To him they are all alive. But part of it must die as he also says ''fear him who can kill both body and soul in Gehenna.''

It is a complicated subject perhaps?

Yes, too complicated, as usual

Ciao

- viole

 

[Robert.Evans]

Again, please stop saying that we do not die just because our sprits live on.

Our spirits are us. Our spirits go through the agony of death when our physical body dies.

I would have said that was our soul which I would call the Self of the person. The Spirit is that part of God that gives us live, animation, I would have thought. Though if you consider the two definitions, there is not a lot to choose between the two.

 

[Kolibri]

It is a complicated subject perhaps?

Not terribly. Though there could be as much debate between camps as there is in whether or not to classify Jesus as Almighty God or not.

I believe that the serpent lied when he said "you certainly will not die." I believe the truth was found in what God said later to Adam, that is "from dust you are to dust you will return." (Ge 3:3,19)
Adam did not have a pre-human existence, so when he died he would not have a post-human existence either. All his children, would also go from dust to dust, except for them there is a hope. A hope that someday God would restore them to life.

In the Bible we have 9 specific examples of a restoration to life. Eight of them were a resurrection to human life and 1 was a resurrection to immortal spirit life. The Bible also holds out hope for others to be resurrected to either potentially everlasting, though mortal, human life, or, for a relatively few, immortal spirit life.

The lie of the serpent is that when we die corporeally that we somehow still exist. This lie succeeds to mislead many because we have "eternity in [our] hearts," and thus the very thought of future non-existence is anathema to us.(Ecc 3:11) But this lie destroys the real meaning of the ransom, and it destroys a need for a resurrection. (Our lives as perfect humans is no longer part of what is being redeemed; why bring back to life if life still exists in some other form everlastingly?)

What I will keep coming back to is that when we die, we become non-existent, even if only momentarily. Immortal literally means "deathlessness." Jesus, prior to dying, could not have been immortal because his spark was extinguished. None of us humans have immortal souls/spirits. Immortality is a gift given to those that take part in the first resurrection that they receive along with their new bodies.

The patriarchs that Jesus said to be living in God's sight are such because their resurrection to mortal, and potentially everlasting, life is guaranteed - so certain that it can be spoken of as if in the past tense.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Not terribly. Though there could be as much debate between camps as there is in whether or not to classify Jesus as Almighty God or not.

I believe that the serpent lied when he said "you certainly will not die." I believe the truth was found in what God said later to Adam, that is "from dust you are to dust you will return." (Ge 3:3,19)

I am not so sure about the serpent lying, though I agree with the second part. I see a difference in the body and Self (soul) -has to be!

Adam did not have a pre-human existence, so when he died he would not have a post-human existence either. All his children, would also go from dust to dust, except for them there is a hope. A hope that someday God would restore them to life.

Good point- thing is though, as I think about it, all things come from logos (the higher conscioiusness of God) and therefore in that sense, he existed before, within conceptual ideas within the mind of God

In the Bible we have 9 specific examples of a restoration to life. Eight of them were a resurrection to human life and 1 was a resurrection to immortal spirit life. The Bible also holds out hope for others to be resurrected to either everlasting, though mortal, human life, or, for a relatively few, immortal spirit life.

The lie of the serpent is that when we die corporeally that we somehow still exist. This lie succeeds to mislead many because we have "eternity in [our] hearts," and thus the very thought of future non-existence is anathema to us.(Ecc 3:11) But this lie destroys the real meaning of the ransom, and it destroys a need for a resurrection. (Our lives as perfect humans is no longer part of what is being redeemed; why bring back to life if life still exists in some other form everlastingly?)

What I will keep coming back to is that when we die, we become non-existent, even if only momentarily. Immortal literally means "deathlessness." Jesus, prior to dying, could not have been immortal because his spark was extinguished. None of us humans have immortal souls/spirits. Immortality is a gift given to those that take part in the first resurrection that they receive along with their new bodies.

The patriarchs that Jesus said to be living in God's sight are such because their resurrection to mortal, and potentially everlasting, life is guaranteed - so certain that it can be spoken of as if in the past tense.

Yes, I agree that we die. But even the Jews think that when you sleep at night, you have a ''mini-death''. Interesting eh?
Yet you not only wake from that, you actually still exist and are still alive... you just don't know it.
Perhaps that explains why some places they go down into Hades alive and some dead.

If the Self of the person is more than one, layered if you like, it would explain it. Though I agree with you, that it would seem to us as death, just as sleep, knowing nothing.

 

[Yes]

This verse need not have anything to do with the "individual" but the you here can be validly understood to be the "congregation."

It is about the individual. When is the "congregation" ever referred to as spirit? Answer that question. Lets see if you can be corrected and admit correction.

This was a plural "you" with a singular spirit, singular soul, and singular body.

This is Paul speaking to you---and all of us. That is the plural you.

You need to stop trying to run to the Greek to try to change God's word.


1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is more 1 Cor 12:12,13 also refer to the congregation as being "one body" and having "one spirit."

That is about having the Holy Spirit.

Instead of simply praying that the congregation be preserved, he prayed for the preservation of its “spirit,” or mental disposition. He also prayed for its “soul,” its life, or existence, and for its “body”—the composite body of Christians anointed for future heavenly life. The prayer thus highlights Paul’s intense concern for the congregation.

What you say does not make sense.

You are trying to manipulate the scriptures to say something it does not.
You are trying to make it sound as if we do not each have a spirit.
James even tells us that our bodies are dead without our spirit.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

That scripture alone should stop you from ever saying again that we do not each have our own spirit.

I believe you were shown 1 Thess 5:23 because on the surface it seems to support the idea of an immortal life prior to a resurrection after the death of the flesh.
But that this was an easy misunderstanding to make - considering that in English, "you" plural and "you" singular look and sound identical.

Is there another passage you might want to add to the discussion?

I have many scriptures. However, you still have not admitted that we have a spirit and that 1 Thessalonians is our spirits.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I suppose it depends on how you see existing in the first place. If we exist as the fathers did, within the conceptual ideas of God, then we exist; but it is not something we would be aware of as we are a lower 'layer' of that same Self. Therefore we could be asleep. I think the ones that will be dead, in the way we think of death, is atheists. Though, i have to say, I still think that they will be reconstitued into another existence, another world, much like the letters in a book could be resued to make another book. The second book would be no more aware of the first than the first of the second.

If that is right, then it gives credence to people having flashbacks to some other existence, such as when some think they were part of the Roman empire etc.

 

[Kolibri]

I am not so sure about the serpent lying, though I agree with the second part. I see a difference in the body and Self (soul) -has to be!

Good point- thing is though, as I think about it, all things come from logos (the higher conscioiusness of God) and therefore in that sense, he existed before, within conceptual ideas within the mind of God

Yes, I agree that we die. But even the Jews think that when you sleep at night, you have a ''mini-death''. Interesting eh?
Yet you not only wake from that, you actually still exist and are still alive... you just don't know it.
Perhaps that explains why some places they go down into Hades alive and some dead.

If the Self of the person is more than one, layered if you like, it would explain it. Though I agree with you, that it would seem to us as death, just as sleep, knowing nothing.

What you say here reminds me of some eastern religions where the goal is to shed the self and become part of the greater consciousness again. This falls more under the teaching of reincarnation. You may loose your self-awareness but you are the same person in a different body.

Resurrection is not that. In all 9 examples in the bible the person was self-aware of who they were before death, and remained that way.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You are trying to make it sound as if we do not each have a spirit.
James even tells us that our bodies are dead without our spirit.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

But to ''give up his spirit'' as the lord did at his crucifixion, does that not mean he died, he lost his life giving ''breath''.
It is the Self (soul) that is us, the inner part, is it not?

 

[Kolibri]

It is about the individual. When is the "congregation" ever referred to as spirit? Answer that question. Lets see if you can be corrected and admit correction.

1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 again. I do not mind being corrected. And have been often. But this scripture too seems clear. The congregation is said to have "one body" and "one spirit."

 

[Robert.Evans]

What you say here reminds me of some eastern religions where the goal is to shed the self and become part of the greater consciousness again. This fall more under the teaching of reincarnation. You may loose your self-awareness but you are the same person in a different body.

Resurrection is not that. In all 9 examples in the bible the person was self-aware of who they were before death, and remained that way.

But surely each one of them had a relationship with God, did they not?

Acts tells us both the rightious and unrightious will be resurrected. So how? Even those who don't know him are resurrected! Why? To be judged? According to the NT, they are already judged (and not judged). So what happens to them then? What is the point of telling them they are going to die when they were already dead and already judged?

 

[Robert.Evans]

1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 again. I do not mind being corrected. And have been often. But this scripture too seems clear. The congregation is said to have "one body" and "one spirit."

Yes, the same spirit