Spiritual Enlightenment: what is it/what it is.

[Vinayaka]

I guess what bothers me about the whole real vs. illusion thingy is that it renders our entire "reality" down to what is essentially a cosmic joke. "Thank you for playing, Sucker!"

Yes, I have that sense too. It's not a joke to me. nor to the sampradaya, but then we're not Vedantins either. If it's all a joke, why bother with anything? And of course this is what the advaita trap does. People can actually defend their poor morals with, 'Well it doesn't matter anyway." Some karmic trap that is.

 

[YmirGF]

You're seeing double, as in 'duality'. There is no higher or lower self. The self is none other than The Self playing itself as the self. The Absolute is playing itself as The Universe, but we don't see it as The Absolute, because we see it through our conceptual mind, which entails Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters, and you will see it for what it actually is: The Absolute.

Enlightenment is simply to see things as they are, and not as the conceptual mind thinks they are.

What is the point of YOUR coming into this Earthly plane?

Keep your cookie. You need it more than I.

I get the idea, I just don't get the point. So, what IS the point?

 

[Polymath257]

Dark Energy, Dark Matter | Science Mission Directorate'
One explanation for dark energy is that it is a property of space. Albert Einstein was the first person to realize that empty space is not nothing. Space has amazing properties, many of which are just beginning to be understood. The first property that Einstein discovered is that it is possible for more space to come into existence. Then one version of Einstein's gravity theory, the version that contains a cosmological constant, makes a second prediction: "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear. As a result, this form of energy would cause the universe to expand faster and faster. Unfortunately, no one understands why the cosmological constant should even be there, much less why it would have exactly the right value to cause the observed acceleration of the universe.


But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe.

Yes. This does not negate the existence of a vacuum. It just says that a vacuum has an energy density associated with it.

 

[godnotgod]

I get the idea, I just don't get the point. So, what IS the point?

When you dance, is there a spot on the dance floor that is the final destination all of your efforts are targeted to, or is the dance itself the goal?

Do you have any idea what/why you're doing on this Earthly plane?

 

[godnotgod]

I guess what bothers me about the whole real vs. illusion thingy is that it renders our entire "reality" down to what is essentially a cosmic joke. "Thank you for playing, Sucker!"

If that is your view, then life is not worth the candle for you, is it? I am afraid that your focus is on the Outcomes of life (ie karma; cause and effect), rather than the Essence of life. And so, you seem to be the butt of a joke, rendering everything you are totally meaningless. This is because you still cling to an idea of self, and self is 'poor little me' who gets bumped around by The Bid Bad World. But is it not possible to see the joy in your self being an illusion; a kind of playfulness that The Universe is doing? And in that alone, lies the entire raison d'etre for one's existence and Being. Do ocean waves complain that they are the butt of a cosmic joke perpetrated by the Big Bad Ocean just for the entertainment and pleasure of the Ocean? Now, if that were actually the case, and if you really were the butt of a Grand Cosmic Joke, then the joke would necessarily be on The Universe itself, would'nt it, since you, like all ocean waves being none other than The Ocean itself,, are none other than The Universe itself? Now this is not to say that The Universe does not have a sense of humor; it most certainly does, and you should be glad that your life is not as serious as you might think it to be, because then the consequences would be far graver than merely feeling that you are the butt of some Jokester.

It has been said that, should you come face to face with The Devil, do not be afraid, but compliment him instead on the quality of his illusion.

"The Green Wolf, with his bunch of red roses, is slinking away, all on a Summer's Day"

 

[godnotgod]

M'Kay.... so where are you pulling all this stuff from? Smells like that De Ropp guy to me.

What does it matter where it came from if you see the validity of the content?

Do you have a basic grasp of the following categories of consciousness:

First Level: Sleep without dreams
Second Level: Sleep with dreams
Third Level: Waking Sleep (Identification) (the level you are now on)
Fourth Level: Self-Remembering, or Self-Transcendence: The Observer
Fifth Level: Cosmic Consciousness: Pure Abstract Intelligence

Source: The Master Game, by Arthur S deRopp

 

[YmirGF]

What does it matter where it came from if you see the validity of the content?

Do you have a basic grasp of the following categories of consciousness:

First Level: Sleep without dreams
Second Level: Sleep with dreams
Third Level: Waking Sleep (Identification) (the level you are now on)
Fourth Level: Self-Remembering, or Self-Transcendence: The Observer
Fifth Level: Cosmic Consciousness: Pure Abstract Intelligence

Source: The Master Game, by Arthur S deRopp

I'm simply not big on such delineations as there is a constant bleed through between layers as to make delineations almost moot. They are not mutually exclusive. Lastly, I dislike the term "cosmic consciousness" though many find the term eminently gratifying. Didn't you leave out a couple after CC?

 

[godnotgod]

I'm simply not big on such delineations as there is a constant bleed through between layers as to make delineations almost moot. They are not mutually exclusive. Lastly, I dislike the term "cosmic consciousness" though many find the term eminently gratifying. Didn't you leave out a couple after CC?

You haven't traveled past the Third Level or thereabouts, so how would you know? You still dwell in Duality.

Do you at least agree with the first 3 levels, more or less?

Cosmic Consciousness, because it is the consciousness of the Cosmos that is the experience, and not that of the limited mind. The difference is huge. Another term for CC is Pure Abstract Intelligence, which is none other than The Unified Field, The Ground of All Being out of which Everything comes.

I don't think there is a level above CC, but perhaps one or two between the Fifth Level and the Fourth, such as The Cornucopia Center, which is in another classification system.

 

[YmirGF]

You haven't traveled past the Third Level or thereabouts, so how would you know? You still dwell in Duality.

You only assume this because I dare to differ from your narrative. It is likely inconceivable to you that another viewing the same things could ever come to see them differently. You are, as you claim, seeing things "as they are" after all. If only it were so...

Do you at least agree with the first 3 levels, more or less?

Not really. As I say there are far too many bleed throughs to make such demarcations. Such designations are arbitrary at best. As arbitrary designations I may go along with the first 3 and perhaps even the fourth, but again, I don't find such delineations particularly meaningful OR helpful to the voyager. They are superb at setting up preconceptions in the mind of the beholder however.

Cosmic Consciousness, because it is the consciousness of the Cosmos that is the experience, and not that of the limited mind. The difference is huge. Another term for CC is Pure Abstract Intelligence, which is none other than The Unified Field, The Ground of All Being out of which Everything comes.

Again, I'm not big on such relatively meaningless designations because they automatically setup preconceptions in the mind of the believer. Said believer will simply encounter their expectations.

I don't think there is a level above CC, but perhaps one or two between the Fifth Level and the Fourth, such as The Cornucopia Center, which is in another classification system.

I see your CC as being a stepping stone, the dawn of a new form of awareness and understanding, it isn't the end of the road, it's the first step on a rather long and amusing journey from that gnosis point.

 

[YmirGF]

When you dance, is there a spot on the dance floor that is the final destination all of your efforts are targeted to, or is the dance itself the goal?

My guess is you know next to nothing about choreography and dance. In dance there are indeed steps, marks and a final step. Without the structure the dance would be mere gyration.

Do you have any idea what/why you're doing on this Earthly plane?

I know precisely what I am here for and why I came. I will agree that not too many can say that however. And no, I won't explain that in anything but the most general terms. (It's a need to know thingy.)

 

[YmirGF]

If that is your view, then life is not worth the candle for you, is it? I am afraid that your focus is on the Outcomes of life (ie karma; cause and effect), rather than the Essence of life. And so, you seem to be the butt of a joke, rendering everything you are totally meaningless. This is because you still cling to an idea of self, and self is 'poor little me' who gets bumped around by The Bid Bad World. But is it not possible to see the joy in your self being an illusion; a kind of playfulness that The Universe is doing? And in that alone, lies the entire raison d'etre for one's existence and Being.

No, I don't look at life this way, Godnotgod. When I put on your narrative, that is where the whole thing becomes meaningless piffle, not in my own worldview which is considerably different from your own.

Do ocean waves complain that they are the butt of a cosmic joke perpetrated by the Big Bad Ocean just for the entertainment and pleasure of the Ocean?

It is rather unlikely that our happy little waves make such complaints, but said waves are hardly conscious of their being, certainly not to the extent that even the unenlightened human animal is conscious of their sentience. It is because of that small fact that your analogy fails. I get what you are saying, I'm just saying what you are rattling on about is inapplicable.

Now, if that were actually the case, and if you really were the butt of a Grand Cosmic Joke, then the joke would necessarily be on The Universe itself, would'nt it, since you, like all ocean waves being none other than The Ocean itself,, are none other than The Universe itself? Now this is not to say that The Universe does not have a sense of humor; it most certainly does, and you should be glad that your life is not as serious as you might think it to be, because then the consequences would be far graver than merely feeling that you are the butt of some Jokester.

I hear you, but your thinking just doesn't add up, for me, at least. Frankly, I'm looking for much better answers to the bigger questions. I'm patient though, I'm going to be around for a very, very long time yet.

 

[godnotgod]

My guess is you know next to nothing about choreography and dance. In dance there are indeed steps, marks and a final step. Without the structure the dance would be mere gyration.

You keep missing the point, and now I am thinking you are doing it deliberately, since the pattern of resistance to both Ben and I has been going on since Day One. I am not saying dance does not involve a pattern, but the point of dancing is dancing itself. Everyone seems to know this simple fact except you. The pattern simply keeps repetitive movement going until the music is over. Why are you so confused and resistant to simple ideas? I guess you are just one of those people who need to have things spelled out for them, just like Norman does, and then still can't understand because you both have mental blocks that won't allow the truth in. You see, I am not talking about your view vs. my view. That is what you think. You cannot stand to give up one inch of ground because that would make you look foolish, in your mind. You want reality to be a matter of opinion. It isn't. Only a fool would think that the point of dancing is to wind up on a particular spot on the floor. Now I will give you one more chance to redeem yourself: Do you indeed think that dancing is about winding up on a particular spot on the floor? If you say 'yes' you will hear my screams echo throughout the forums for a few days. Puh-leaze, be honest, at least!

I know precisely what I am here for and why I came. I will agree that not too many can say that however. And no, I won't explain that in anything but the most general terms. (It's a need to know thingy.)

Well judging from your posts, I would say you haven't a clue as to why you're here. You're confused, and think you are the butt of a Cosmic Joke, as in 'Sorry, sucka'. But not only do you think that due to your confusion, you put up a facade that you know. It is clear from your posts, however, that you are further away from realization than you think.

 

[godnotgod]

No, I don't look at life this way, Godnotgod. When I put on your narrative, that is where the whole thing becomes meaningless piffle, not in my own worldview which is considerably different from your own.

Then why did you express frustration with life in a couple of your posts, specifically when you came to the conclusion that life is but a Cosmic Joke? That is not my narrative, but yours, and that is because you are still looking for something to get; something to 'figure out', when neither is the case.

It is rather unlikely that our happy little waves make such complaints, but said waves are hardly conscious of their being, certainly not to the extent that even the unenlightened human animal is conscious of their sentience. It is because of that small fact that your analogy fails. I get what you are saying, I'm just saying what you are rattling on about is inapplicable.

Again, you miss the point of the metaphor; of COURSE waves are not conscious of their own being! DUH! It is applicable because, unlike the wave which goes with the flow, you are resistant to the flow, and that is why you think life is a Cosmic Joke. You will deny this, of course, as your ego pattern will kick in and take over in order to maintain the facade of your intellectual superiority. Mouse, please don't try to fool me, OK?

I hear you, but your thinking just doesn't add up, for me, at least. Frankly, I'm looking for much better answers to the bigger questions. I'm patient though, I'm going to be around for a very, very long time yet.

Again, you play the spiritual game of One-Upmanship, wanting to maintain the facade of intellectual superiority as a result of your argument having failed, while shifting the attention away from your having admitted that you can't get past thinking life is just a Cosmic Joke on you: "Oh, I don't bother with silly things like Enlightenment *cough*; why I am on to bigger questions, and am patient because I am wise, and......!" ( Reminds me of when short people wear elevated shoes to make themselves appear taller than they really are, LOL.)

 

[godnotgod]

You only assume this because I dare to differ from your narrative. It is likely inconceivable to you that another viewing the same things could ever come to see them differently. You are, as you claim, seeing things "as they are" after all. If only it were so...

No, you haven't gone past Identification because 1. life is a joke to you, and 2. you have consistently defended the illusory self as authentic.

Not really. As I say there are far too many bleed throughs to make such demarcations. Such designations are arbitrary at best. As arbitrary designations I may go along with the first 3 and perhaps even the fourth, but again, I don't find such delineations particularly meaningful OR helpful to the voyager. They are superb at setting up preconceptions in the mind of the beholder however.

They are definite states with some fuzziness between them, but still definite states. Sleep without Dreams can merge into Sleep with Dreams which can merge into Waking Sleep, but all 3 are distinct states when you experience them. You don't know about the Fourth because you haven't transcended the self yet, as you continue to cling to it, even tout it. That you have made clear as long as I have known you.

Again, I'm not big on such relatively meaningless designations because they automatically setup preconceptions in the mind of the believer. Said believer will simply encounter their expectations.

I see your CC as being a stepping stone, the dawn of a new form of awareness and understanding, it isn't the end of the road, it's the first step on a rather long and amusing journey from that gnosis point.

CC is by no means new. It is the eternal state which everyone eventually realizes was there all the time, so not a destination at all, since you don't go anywhere to realize it. CC is simply the realization that you have always been at one with the Cosmos, even though you thought you were a separate ego acting upon the world.

 

[Fool]

Yes. This does not negate the existence of a vacuum. It just says that a vacuum has an energy density associated with it.

i wasn't trying to negate the existence of a vaccum. i was attempting to dispel the idea that vacuums are 100% empty. they aren't.

 

[YmirGF]

You keep missing the point, and now I am thinking you are doing it deliberately, since the pattern of resistance to both Ben and I has been going on since Day One. I am not saying dance does not involve a pattern, but the point of dancing is dancing itself. Everyone seems to know this simple fact except you. The pattern simply keeps repetitive movement going until the music is over. Why are you so confused and resistant to simple ideas? I guess you are just one of those people who need to have things spelled out for them, just like Norman does, and then still can't understand because you both have mental blocks that won't allow the truth in. You see, I am not talking about your view vs. my view. That is what you think. You cannot stand to give up one inch of ground because that would make you look foolish, in your mind. You want reality to be a matter of opinion. It isn't. Only a fool would think that the point of dancing is to wind up on a particular spot on the floor. Now I will give you one more chance to redeem yourself: Do you indeed think that dancing is about winding up on a particular spot on the floor? If you say 'yes' you will hear my screams echo throughout the forums for a few days. Puh-leaze, be honest, at least!

The expression "cannot see the forest for the trees" comes to mind reading your meltdown over this. For the record, just because I'm such a dork, the answer is..... ...."Yes!" In all seriousness though, yes, dance is for the sake of "dance", however, hitting that last step on the very last note is the whole point. Nailing the last step, on the mark, to the music, is what it's all about. Non-dancers or those who just get up there and flail about might not realize this because they cannot really dance.

Well judging from your posts, I would say you haven't a clue as to why you're here. You're confused, and think you are the butt of a Cosmic Joke, as in 'Sorry, sucka'. But not only do you think that due to your confusion, you put up a facade that you know. It is clear from your posts, however, that you are further away from realization than you think.

On that note...
*comes down on the mark, deftly on one foot, arms extended, beaming a smile*
I will leave you, for the time being, to wallow in the smug satisfaction that you have seemingly won this round.

 

[Polymath257]

i wasn't trying to negate the existence of a vaccum. i was attempting to dispel the idea that vacuums are 100% empty. they aren't.

But, far from nature abhorring a vacuum, such are common. Most of space is a vacuum.

 

[godnotgod]

The expression "cannot see the forest for the trees" comes to mind reading your meltdown over this. For the record, just because I'm such a dork, the answer is..... ...."Yes!" In all seriousness though, yes, dance is for the sake of "dance", however, hitting that last step on the very last note is the whole point. Nailing the last step, on the mark, to the music, is what it's all about. Non-dancers or those who just get up there and flail about might not realize this because they cannot really dance.

You're a very confused individual. If "dance is for the sake of dance", then it is also the point. The last step is simply the conclusion to the dance, not the point, which would be ridiculous. That would be like saying that the point of a symphony is the last note. People would attend concerts just to hear the last note! But the metaphor of dance for the point of the Universe existing is that the Universe exists for the sheer joy of existence itself, just as dance is for the sheer pleasure of the dance, not for the final step. This is where the metaphor ends, however, since a dance comes to an end, while the Universe goes on eternally. So it is said:

"Be glad, oh be glad, for the song has no ending"

And so, the answer to life we seek is not in some conclusion or final goal, like getting into some heaven in the sky after death as some reward for being so wonderful, but to get with the dance of the Universe, here and now.

I'm sorry I had to spell this out, but sometimes that becomes necessary when some do everything in their power to refuse to see.

On that note...
*comes down on the mark, deftly on one foot, arms extended, beaming a smile*
I will leave you, for the time being, to wallow in the smug satisfaction that you have seemingly won this round.

You see? For you, this is a contest of winning and losing, and that is why you cannot see the simple truth. Instead of having both eyes on the path, you have one eye on the goal and one eye on the path. You're concerned about what you can 'get', rather than what is. That is why I pointed out to you that you see only the Outcomes, and not the Essence. Winning is not the point, just as the final dance step is not the point; seeing things as they are is the point. See?

 

[YmirGF]

You're a very confused individual. If "dance is for the sake of dance", then it is also the point. The last step is simply the conclusion to the dance, not the point, which would be ridiculous. That would be like saying that the point of a symphony is the last note. People would attend concerts just to hear the last note! But the metaphor of dance for the point of the Universe existing is that the Universe exists for the sheer joy of existence itself, just as dance is for the sheer pleasure of the dance, not for the final step. This is where the metaphor ends, however, since a dance comes to an end, while the Universe goes on eternally. So it is said:

"Be glad, oh be glad, for the song has no ending"

And so, the answer to life we seek is not in some conclusion or final goal, like getting into some heaven in the sky after death as some reward for being so wonderful, but to get with the dance of the Universe, here and now.

I'm sorry I had to spell this out, but sometimes that becomes necessary when some do everything in their power to refuse to see.




You see? For you, this is a contest of winning and losing, and that is why you cannot see the simple truth. Instead of having both eyes on the path, you have one eye on the goal and one eye on the path. You're concerned about what you can 'get', rather than what is. That is why I pointed out to you that you see only the Outcomes, and not the Essence. Winning is not the point, just as the final dance step is not the point; seeing things as they are is the point. See?

Thank you o' wise master. My heart is rapturous at the mere thought that you would deign to correct my continuing confusion. I am so not worthy.

 

[godnotgod]

Thank you o' wise master. My heart is rapturous at the mere thought that you would deign to correct my continuing confusion. I am so not worthy.

Oh, boy! Now you play the lower side of spiritual One-Upmanship by pretending to (false) humility. "Oh, Lord, I could NEVER hope to approach YOUR wisdom, Oh no, no, no! Why, I am nothing more than a miserable wretch groveling at Thy feet, completely unworthy of even the slightest consideration. But I WOULD like to sit on your throne if only for the briefest of moments, and be King For A Day, Oh Yeah!

(sounds of godnotgod hurling in a distant room)

My, my. What a funny way God is coming on today. Life never ceases to amaze.

Mouse, suggest to get out more often and do a little dancing perhaps.

Clever little devils, those mice!