Spiritual Evidence and Proofs of God’s Existence

[1213]

Yes, to the same extent that praying to God and not getting what you ask for is evidence against God.

I think that is not necessary the same, because God has not promised to do everything anyone asks.

 

[1213]

You know by now or ought to what it takes to convince a critical thinker -

Yes, but I don't think atheists are critical thinkers. I don't believe critical thinker could be an atheist.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Without the aid of great spiritual Teachers I believe we would still be barbarians. And These Teachers all get their inspiration from the same Source - God.

We are evolved apes, so we are drivin by our instinct like any living creature on the planet.

That includes evolved concepts like a god that people use as an avatar and any representation like messengers that claim they communicate with their avatar or God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religions go through stages. When they begin they are effective but over time decay and only the outward practices remain. So each religion has its spring, summer, autumn then winter. Today religions are in their winter, organisations, but lacking the virtues you mentioned. That is why religion is renewed from age to age by God. Today those virtues have been revived once again by the appearance of a new Messenger of God.

So when you said that all religions teach virtues, you really meant "only my religion teaches virtues and no others"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think that is not necessary the same, because God has not promised to do everything anyone asks.

No, it's exactly the same:

- prayers being answered is consistent with God existing, so an answered prayer is very weak evidence that God exists.

- prayers not being answered is consistent with God not existing, so an unanswered prayer is very weak evidence that God does not exist.

But in either case, we don't get very far because we haven't done anything to address alternative explanations that fit the facts: maybe the thing being prayed for happened because of mundane causes that didn't involve God, or maybe - as you suggest - the prayer wasn't answered because God leaves some prayers unanswered.

... so exactly the same.

 

[blü 2]

No. You are not. You are not trying to be gentle with me, nor the Bible.
What point are you trying to make here?

What point? That your proposal that the bible is a reliable guide to morals is nonsense, as any reading of the bible willl disclose ─ invasive war, massacres of surrendered populations, human sacrifice, religious intolerance, slavery, inferiority of women, and so on, all ordained by God.

Do you want me to quote the relevant parts of the bible? Being one who studies the bible, you should know them already, but still, I'm here to help if you somehow missed those parts.

Oh, and you didn't explain why Jesus' suicide mission was necessary, given that God is omnipotent.

 

[viole]

For me, the "transformative effect" and the spiritual values are the strongest proofs.
There are people who think of the Bible like it is some magic portion, where anyone who picks it up should be transformed "by its power".

However, one cannot see the transforming power of the Bible, by the mere possession of it.
Many people possess a Bible, and hardly read it. Some don't even think that it is of much value, other than to hold it in their hand for people to see... as though it's a ticket to a ride to heaven.
You probably heard that some people open it to a random page, and place it above a baby's head.

To see the transforming power of the Bible, one has to read, study, appreciate and apply it.
Only then, would one see the transforming power, because applying its values result in a superior way of life.

This is proof for me, and it can be scientifically tested.
All that is required, is to take all the people who read, study, appreciate, and apply the principles in the Bible, along with thousands of other people, and evaluate the results.

Which of those people are less angry, less sexually immoral, less tolerant of drug or alcohol abuse, less tolerant of the use of harmful substances, like smoking cigars, getting tattooed, less tolerant of dangerous activities - car, motorcycle, snowboarding, etc., racing, less tolerant of using language that is not up-building to the hearer, less tolerant of being entertained by violence, and immorality, and exposing children to these, does not return evil to those that commit evil against them, more peaceable, etc. etc.

I am confident - guaranteed - that those who are applying - living by Bible standards, would all prove to be on one side of the chart, 100%, while on the other side there would be mixed results, none consistently having their "needle" pointing one way.

The only problem science would have in this area though, is that they cannot decide on what is immoral, and people have various opinions on morals, so for example, it may be morally acceptable to some, to "pick fairs", that is pay for sexual favors. Or, one may think it is okay to "sleep with" the neighbor's wife, because "she consents", and don't love her husband, anyway.

So the world's inconsistency, on what is morally acceptable, limits science, and so, it fails to be a good tool for measuring the proofs that exist in reality.

The other thing is, science cannot read hearts, so it is impossible to verify who really is at heart applying the scriptures. Some people are good pretenders.
So, while we have the proof, and it be really proof, science cannot verify it. Nor can atheists disprove it.

The big problem with “transformative effects” is that it is applicable to religions different from Christianity. I personally know people, believing in Gods that are completely different from the Christian God, who experienced great transformations and use that as evidence that (their God) exists.

But since all those different Gods are mutually exclusive we can logically conclude that the “transformative theory” is epistemologically very unreliable, and as such it leads to no evidence at all.

ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The big problem with “transformative effects” is that it is applicable to religions different from Christianity.

And to leaving Christianity.

... especially @nPeace 's denomination. There's no shortage of testimonials from ex-JWs describing how leaving has let them have a happier, more moral, and more fulfilled life.

 

[nPeace]

What point? That your proposal that the bible is a reliable guide to morals is nonsense, as any reading of the bible willl disclose ─ invasive war, massacres of surrendered populations, human sacrifice, religious intolerance, slavery, inferiority of women, and so on, all ordained by God.

Do you want me to quote the relevant parts of the bible? Being one who studies the bible, you should know them already, but still, I'm here to help if you somehow missed those parts.

The Torah, is not the Bible, and the Bible is not the Torah.
If you understand the Bible, you will understand that. If not, you understand nothing, about the Bible.
It's as simple as that.

Oh, and you didn't explain why Jesus' suicide mission was necessary, given that God is omnipotent.

I explained why Jesus had to die - why he gave his life as a sacrifice.
Tell me, do you consider people given a Bravery Honor, for saving a life, or lives, at the cost of their own? Straight answer... No beating around the bush and running away from answering the question this time. Do you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I explained why Jesus had to die - why he gave his life as a sacrifice.
Tell me, do you consider people given a Bravery Honor, for saving a life, or lives, at the cost of their own? Straight answer... No beating around the bush and running away from answering the question this time. Do you?

Praising someone for bravely sacrificing their life generally comes as a package deal with condeming those who caused the sacrifice to be necessary.

If Jesus is the hero of the story, then God is the villain.

 

[joelr]

For me, the "transformative effect" and the spiritual values are the strongest proofs.
There are people who think of the Bible like it is some magic portion, where anyone who picks it up should be transformed "by its power".

However, one cannot see the transforming power of the Bible, by the mere possession of it.
Many people possess a Bible, and hardly read it. Some don't even think that it is of much value, other than to hold it in their hand for people to see... as though it's a ticket to a ride to heaven.
You probably heard that some people open it to a random page, and place it above a baby's head.

To see the transforming power of the Bible, one has to read, study, appreciate and apply it.
Only then, would one see the transforming power, because applying its values result in a superior way of life.

This is proof for me, and it can be scientifically tested.
All that is required, is to take all the people who read, study, appreciate, and apply the principles in the Bible, along with thousands of other people, and evaluate the results.

No it's confirmation bias. My Muslim GF said the same about the Quran. My Hindu friend makes the same claims in this post about Lord Krishna. Every single point, personal relationship, feels his answers in her heart. Islamic friend even felt she was in the correct religion, Allah told her with emotion and leads her life to positive things.
It's not real, it's confirmation bias.

Which of those people are less angry, less sexually immoral, less tolerant of drug or alcohol abuse, less tolerant of the use of harmful substances, like smoking cigars, getting tattooed, less tolerant of dangerous activities - car, motorcycle, snowboarding, etc., racing, less tolerant of using language that is not up-building to the hearer, less tolerant of being entertained by violence, and immorality, and exposing children to these, does not return evil to those that commit evil against them, more peaceable, etc. etc.

You just described most serious Muslims. And serious Hindu. This demonstrates that the God doesn't need be real, just having a principle.
People who dedicate themselves to philosophy yet are secular, you just described them as well.
So scientifically your test proves taking a moral system and applying it works. Lives have been transfformed from Meditations by M.A as well as the works of his teacher.
JW who say you are going to hell because you are in the wrong sect. They live even stricter lives.
Yet 100's of priests were accuses of horrible crimes in the 80's. An "epidemic".

The other thing is, science cannot read hearts, so it is impossible to verify who really is at heart applying the scriptures. Some people are good pretenders.
So, while we have the proof, and it be really proof, science cannot verify it. Nor can atheists disprove it.

There are Eastern Monks living monastic dedicated lives, millions of Hindu who eat plants and never harm anything living.
There is already evidence that clinging to a way of life causes changes. Doesn't mean Hindu deities are real, doesn't mean Jesus is real.
AA causes massive transformation, non-denominational. Tony Robbins seminars cause massive transformation. Clear proof it's psychological.

 

[joelr]

Can you prove that virtues are evolved traits? Where did they evolve from?
I say they are from God. "Hardwired" into "the nature of" man. Can you prove me wrong?

We have massive evidence for evolution. We can look at lower life and see less virtues, more complex life we see the emergence of virtues.
Easy answer.
Gods? Exist in stories.

 

[nPeace]

The big problem with “transformative effects” is that it is applicable to religions different from Christianity. I personally know people, believing in Gods that are completely different from the Christian God, who experienced great transformations and use that as evidence that (their God) exists.

Well here is your chance to demonstrate your claim.
You see, I'm a fair person.

Please give me the name of the religion, and the transformation made.
What things for example, have they given up, and no longer practice, and are they no longer practicing any of the things in my list?

There is a reason I ask. I'll give you the first.
The newer religions, trace their moral values back to the Bible.
For example, Muslim, Hindus, etc, are all after the Psalms and the Proverbs, and their holy books point to these, as being from the true God.
Even modern day witnesses of Jehovah (JWs) trace their values back to the early writings.
So that is why there will be similar values.

Even atheists. You won't want to admit it, but your fore-parents grandfather, aunt, somebody, held values passed down through generation, which has had some influence on atheists... even if you were born into an atheists household, or brought up in a church.

But since all those different Gods are mutually exclusive we can logically conclude that the “transformative theory” is epistemologically very unreliable, and as such it leads to no evidence at all.

ciao

- viole

No sorry. That does not mesh, with the facts.

 

[joelr]

When speaking about evidences and proofs with regards to God here I am not speaking about scientific proofs but spiritual proofs. I believe that the human mind cannot grasp God so it is fruitless trying to prove God scientifically as we are told He is Spirit. Then to prove God we need to look at spiritual evidences.

What are spiritual proofs and evidences of God? Some say the virtues. Others, the transformative effect the Teachings of the Great Spiritual Teachers have had on the character of the individual and society. Still others say miracles.

Readers might like to contribute by adding how their Prophet’s teachings transformed the life of the individual and society or add their own spiritual proofs of God’s existence.

The Meditations By Marcus Aurelius alone has had massive transforming effect on people. Secular wisdom.

Secular Eastern philosophy and Western has had huge spiritual impact on people. So has Hinduism, does that make Krishna real?

Epictetus was transformed by God. So he must be real then? So Zeus is real.

Epictetus is also very concerned to situate the rationality of the human being within a maximally rational universe. His confidence in the fundamental orderliness of all things is expressed in frequent references to Zeus or “the god” as the designer and administrator of the universe. There seems to be no question of competition with any other deities or powers. Epictetus does sometimes speak, conventionally for a Greek, of “gods” in the plural, but Zeus remains unquestionably supreme: he enjoys having some company, just as we do (3.13.4), but does not require assistance and cannot be opposed.

Immanent rather than transcendent, Zeus inheres in, and may indeed be identified with, the natural order. As such he is in theory fully accessible to human comprehension in the same way as all objects and events are accessible to our comprehension. With effort, rational beings can come to understand Zeus as a person, a rational being with thoughts and intentions like ours. That recognition inspires awe and gratitude, a “hymn of praise” that it is our duty to offer in each occasion of life (1.16.19).

God is the creator of humankind as of all else, and his attitude toward us is one of complete benevolence. It is by his gift that we are rational beings, and our rational nature qualifies us as his kindred. More: our minds are actually fragments of Zeus’s mind, “parts and offshoots of his own being” (1.14.6, 2.8.10–12). When we make choices on our own account, we exercise the very same power as governs the universe. Hence it can be said that Zeus has ceded to us a portion of his governance (1.1.12).

 

[nPeace]

Praising someone for bravely sacrificing their life generally comes as a package deal with condeming those who caused the sacrifice to be necessary.

Now that's confirmation bias. We just have to find something to criticize.
I see no sense in what you said, because the one who made the sacrifice or the people in danger did not cause the person who made the sacrifice necessary to act the way they did.

If someone enters a Supermarket, and starts shooting, and someone throws themself over their little girl or boy, did the person cause the shooter?
Atheists just have no shame for their closed minded bias.

If Jesus is the hero of the story, then God is the villain.

Does not follow. ...but... How do you figure?

 

[viole]

There is a reason I ask. I'll give you the first.
The newer religions, trace their moral values back to the Bible.
For example, Muslim, Hindus, etc, are all after the Psalms and the Proverbs, and their holy books point to these, as being from the true God.
Even modern day witnesses of Jehovah (JWs) trace their values back to the early writings.
So that is why there will be similar values.

Ok, if that is the case, then it is obvious. I do not know many pagans I could use to crosscheck. However, that is no evidence of a God. It is evidence that people believing in that God, or that Scripture, had their life transformed.

i do not contest that. i know belief can change people. There are people who changed their life completely, and eventually committed group suicide, also thought to be a big transformation, because they believed that a UFO hiding behind the moon will pick up their souls on the way. I hope uou agree that this can hardly serve as evidence that there are hiding UFOs vacuuming souls as they pass near the earth.

so, this will serve, at best, as evidence that belief can change people, and therefore belief exists. But we do not need evidence that belief exists, because we already know that.

ciao

- viole

 

[joelr]

Well here is your chance to demonstrate your claim.
You see, I'm a fair person.

Please give me the name of the religion, and the transformation made.
What things for example, have they given up, and no longer practice, and are they no longer practicing any of the things in my list?

There is a reason I ask. I'll give you the first.
The newer religions, trace their moral values back to the Bible.
For example, Muslim, Hindus, etc, are all after the Psalms and the Proverbs, and their holy books point to these, as being from the true God.
Even modern day witnesses of Jehovah (JWs) trace their values back to the early writings.
So that is why there will be similar values.

Even atheists. You won't want to admit it, but your fore-parents grandfather, aunt, somebody, held values passed down through generation, which has had some influence on atheists... even if you were born into an atheists household, or brought up in a church.


No sorry. That does not mesh, with the facts.

Uh, Inana was 2000 years before the Israelites were a people. This is the first known writing by a human in existence. A small sample written by Enheduanna. Clearly as transformative as any Biblical praise.

Also Genesis is confirmed to be written as a response to Mesopotamian myths. Heaven, souls returning there is not originally a Hebrew belief.
That is Greek.

Hymn to Inanna

The Hymn to Inanna (also known as The Great-Hearted Mistress) is a passionate devotional work by the poet and high priestess Enheduanna (l. 2285-2250 BCE), the first author in the world known by name...

www.worldhistory.org

: To run, to escape, to quiet and to pacify are yours, Inana. To rove around, to rush, to rise up, to fall down and to ... a companion are yours, Inana. To open up roads and paths, a place of peace for the journey, a companion for the weak, are yours, Inana. To keep paths and ways in good order, to shatter earth and to make it firm are yours, Inana. To destroy, to build up, to tear out and to settle are yours, Inana. To turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man are yours, Inana. Desirability and arousal, goods and property are yours, Inana. Gain, profit, great wealth and greater wealth are yours, Inana. Gaining wealth and having success in wealth, financial loss and reduced wealth are yours, Inana. Observation (1 ms. has instead: Everything), choice, offering, inspection and approval are yours, Inana. Assigning virility, dignity, guardian angels, protective deities and cult centres are yours, Inana.
6 lines fragmentary

132-154: ... mercy and pity are yours, Inana. ... are yours, Inana. To cause the ... heart to tremble, ... illnesses are yours, Inana. To have a wife, ..., to love ... are yours, Inana. To rejoice, to control (?), ... are yours, Inana. Neglect and care, raising and bowing down are yours, Inana. To build a house, to create a woman's chamber, to possess implements, to kiss a child's lips are yours, Inana. To run, to race, to desire and to succeed are yours, Inana. To interchange the brute and the strong and the weak and the powerless is yours, Inana. To interchange the heights and valleys and the ... and the plains (?) is yours, Inana. To give the crown, the throne and the royal sceptre is yours, Inana.
12 lines missing

155-157: To diminish, to make great, to make low, to make broad, to ... and to give a lavish supply are yours, Inana. To bestow the divine and royal rites, to carry out the appropriate instructions, slander, untruthful words, abuse, to speak inimically and to overstate are yours, Inana.

158-168: The false or true response, the sneer, to commit violence, to extend derision, to speak with hostility, to cause smiling and to be humbled or important, misfortune, hardship, grief, to make happy, to clarify and to darken, agitation, terror, fear, splendour and great awesomeness in radiance, triumph, pursuit, imbasur illness, sleeplessness and restlessness, submission, gift, ... and howling, strife, chaos, opposition, fighting and carnage, ..., to know everything, to strengthen for the distant future a nest built ..., to instill fear in the ... desert like a ... poisonous snake, to subdue the hostile enemy, ... and to hate ... are yours, Inana.

169-173: To ... the lots ..., to gather the dispersed people and restore them to their homes, to receive ..., to ... are yours, Inana.
1 line fragmentary

174-181: ... the runners, when you open your mouth, ... turns into ... At your glance a deaf man does not ... to one who can hear. At your angry glare what is bright darkens; you turn midday into darkness. When the time had come you destroyed the place you had in your thoughts, you made the place tremble. Nothing can be compared to your purposes (?); who can oppose your great deeds? You are the lady of heaven and earth! Inana, in (?) the palace the unbribable judge, among the numerous people ... decisions. The invocation of your name fills the mountains, An (?) cannot compete with your ...

182-196: Your understanding ... all the gods ... You alone are magnificent. You are the great cow among the gods of heaven and earth, as many as there are. When you raise your eyes they pay heed to you, they wait for your word. The Anuna gods stand praying in the place where you dwell. Great awesomeness, glory ... May your praise not cease! Where is your name not magnificent?
Once you have said 'So be it', great An does not ... for him. Your 'So be it' is a 'So be it' of destruction, to destroy ....... Once you have said your ...... in the assembly, An and Enlil will not disperse it. Once you have made a decision ......, it cannot be changed in heaven and earth. Once you have specified approval of a place, it experiences no destruction. Once you have specified destruction for a place, it experiences no approval.

209-218: Your divinity shines in the pure heavens like Nanna or Utu. Your torch lights up the corners of heaven, turning darkness into light. ... with fire. Your ... refining ... walks like Utu in front of you. No one can lay a hand on your precious divine powers; all your divine powers ... You exercise full ladyship over heaven and earth; you hold everything in your hand. Mistress, you are magnificent, no one can walk before you. You dwell with great An in the holy resting-place. Which god is like you in gathering together ... in heaven and earth? You are magnificent, your name is praised, you alone are magnificent!

: Advice ..., grief, bitterness ..., 'alas' ... My lady, ... mercy ... compassion ... I am yours! This will always be so! May your heart be soothed towards me! May your understanding ... compassion. ....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now that's confirmation bias.

Maybe understand what terms like "confirmation bias" mean before you use them in conversation.

We just have to find something to criticize.
I see no sense in what you said, because the one who made the sacrifice or the people in danger did not cause the person who made the sacrifice necessary to act the way they did.

If someone enters a Supermarket, and starts shooting, and someone throws themself over their little girl or boy, did the person cause the shooter?
Atheists just have no shame for their closed minded bias.

No, they didn't. In this analogy, the person who sacrifices themselves - Jesus - and the shooter - God - are separate people each acting of their own volition.

Does not follow. ...but... How do you figure?

When someone does something at great personal cost to save others from a bad outcome, they've acted bravely. What they did is praiseworthy.

When someone does something at great personal cost to "save" others from a good outcome, they've acted recklessly, not bravely. What they did is foolish.

You've told us that you consider Jesus to be brave and praiseworthy for saving humanity from God's judgment. This tells us that you consider God's judgment to be a bad thing.

 

[nPeace]

Uh, Inana was 2000 years before the Israelites were a people. This is the first known writing by a human in existence. A small sample written by Enheduanna. Clearly as transformative as any Biblical praise.

Also Genesis is confirmed to be written as a response to Mesopotamian myths. Heaven, souls returning there is not originally a Hebrew belief.
That is Greek.

Hymn to Inanna

The Hymn to Inanna (also known as The Great-Hearted Mistress) is a passionate devotional work by the poet and high priestess Enheduanna (l. 2285-2250 BCE), the first author in the world known by name...

www.worldhistory.org

: To run, to escape, to quiet and to pacify are yours, Inana. To rove around, to rush, to rise up, to fall down and to ... a companion are yours, Inana. To open up roads and paths, a place of peace for the journey, a companion for the weak, are yours, Inana. To keep paths and ways in good order, to shatter earth and to make it firm are yours, Inana. To destroy, to build up, to tear out and to settle are yours, Inana. To turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man are yours, Inana. Desirability and arousal, goods and property are yours, Inana. Gain, profit, great wealth and greater wealth are yours, Inana. Gaining wealth and having success in wealth, financial loss and reduced wealth are yours, Inana. Observation (1 ms. has instead: Everything), choice, offering, inspection and approval are yours, Inana. Assigning virility, dignity, guardian angels, protective deities and cult centres are yours, Inana.
6 lines fragmentary

132-154: ... mercy and pity are yours, Inana. ... are yours, Inana. To cause the ... heart to tremble, ... illnesses are yours, Inana. To have a wife, ..., to love ... are yours, Inana. To rejoice, to control (?), ... are yours, Inana. Neglect and care, raising and bowing down are yours, Inana. To build a house, to create a woman's chamber, to possess implements, to kiss a child's lips are yours, Inana. To run, to race, to desire and to succeed are yours, Inana. To interchange the brute and the strong and the weak and the powerless is yours, Inana. To interchange the heights and valleys and the ... and the plains (?) is yours, Inana. To give the crown, the throne and the royal sceptre is yours, Inana.
12 lines missing

155-157: To diminish, to make great, to make low, to make broad, to ... and to give a lavish supply are yours, Inana. To bestow the divine and royal rites, to carry out the appropriate instructions, slander, untruthful words, abuse, to speak inimically and to overstate are yours, Inana.

158-168: The false or true response, the sneer, to commit violence, to extend derision, to speak with hostility, to cause smiling and to be humbled or important, misfortune, hardship, grief, to make happy, to clarify and to darken, agitation, terror, fear, splendour and great awesomeness in radiance, triumph, pursuit, imbasur illness, sleeplessness and restlessness, submission, gift, ... and howling, strife, chaos, opposition, fighting and carnage, ..., to know everything, to strengthen for the distant future a nest built ..., to instill fear in the ... desert like a ... poisonous snake, to subdue the hostile enemy, ... and to hate ... are yours, Inana.

169-173: To ... the lots ..., to gather the dispersed people and restore them to their homes, to receive ..., to ... are yours, Inana.
1 line fragmentary

174-181: ... the runners, when you open your mouth, ... turns into ... At your glance a deaf man does not ... to one who can hear. At your angry glare what is bright darkens; you turn midday into darkness. When the time had come you destroyed the place you had in your thoughts, you made the place tremble. Nothing can be compared to your purposes (?); who can oppose your great deeds? You are the lady of heaven and earth! Inana, in (?) the palace the unbribable judge, among the numerous people ... decisions. The invocation of your name fills the mountains, An (?) cannot compete with your ...

182-196: Your understanding ... all the gods ... You alone are magnificent. You are the great cow among the gods of heaven and earth, as many as there are. When you raise your eyes they pay heed to you, they wait for your word. The Anuna gods stand praying in the place where you dwell. Great awesomeness, glory ... May your praise not cease! Where is your name not magnificent?
Once you have said 'So be it', great An does not ... for him. Your 'So be it' is a 'So be it' of destruction, to destroy ....... Once you have said your ...... in the assembly, An and Enlil will not disperse it. Once you have made a decision ......, it cannot be changed in heaven and earth. Once you have specified approval of a place, it experiences no destruction. Once you have specified destruction for a place, it experiences no approval.

209-218: Your divinity shines in the pure heavens like Nanna or Utu. Your torch lights up the corners of heaven, turning darkness into light. ... with fire. Your ... refining ... walks like Utu in front of you. No one can lay a hand on your precious divine powers; all your divine powers ... You exercise full ladyship over heaven and earth; you hold everything in your hand. Mistress, you are magnificent, no one can walk before you. You dwell with great An in the holy resting-place. Which god is like you in gathering together ... in heaven and earth? You are magnificent, your name is praised, you alone are magnificent!

: Advice ..., grief, bitterness ..., 'alas' ... My lady, ... mercy ... compassion ... I am yours! This will always be so! May your heart be soothed towards me! May your understanding ... compassion. ....

Wow. You're fast. You have all these things stored in a 'journal', so it's just a quick copy paste, isn't it. That's smart. Good practice. I should try it, because it saves repeating things too.

 

[sayak83]

All you can see is the test? Wow.
I am so glad RF is not the only place we find scientists.

I'll spell it out for you then. It is self evident. It is not a personal experience. Do I have to put my hand in a sharks mouth to know what the results are? Is that my personal expectation? No. It is not... and we all know that.

So telling me about personal experience, is a strawman.
I said...
This is proof for me, and it can be scientifically tested.
All that is required, is to take all the people who read, study, appreciate, and apply the principles in the Bible, along with thousands of other people, and evaluate the results.
Then I mentioned the features of such a test, and the limitations on science, where that is concerned.

So the focus was never on the test.
Then I said... So, while we have the proof, and it be really proof, science cannot verify it. Nor can atheists disprove it.
We have the proof. We don't need science for that.

Everyone who was not born yesterday, and knows what a shark is, do not need a scientist to tell them what a shark does, do they?
Science can't tell them if the shark will bite them either, so we don't need a peer reviewd paper telling us anything that we can clearly see.
This Scientism worship is really becoming an annoying beast. I look forward to when God kills that beast.

We hold these truths to be self evident...

Promiscuity in adults
Having multiple sexual partners is linked with risks such as maternal deaths and complications, cancers, sexually transmitted infections, alcohol, and substance use, and social condemnation in some societies.

Effects of human sexual promiscuity - Wikipedia​

Smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke, lung diseases, diabetes, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. Smoking also increases risk for tuberculosis, certain eye diseases, and problems of the immune system, including rheumatoid arthritis.

Health Effects | Smoking and Tobacco Use - CDC​

Drug use can lead to dependence and addiction, injury and accidents, health problems, sleep issues, and more. Drug use affects you and those close to you.

Know the Risks of Using Drugs | SAMHSA​

Smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke, lung diseases, diabetes, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. Smoking also increases risk for tuberculosis, certain eye diseases, and problems of the immune system, including rheumatoid arthritis.

Health Effects | Smoking and Tobacco Use - CD​

Violence a global public health problem - SciELO​

Community violence can include physical assaults between young people, sexual violence in the workplace and neglect of older people

Profanity | World Problems & Global Issue​

Union of International Associations
http://encyclopedia.uia.org › problem
Profanity. Other Names: Swearing Bad language. Indecent speech. Foul language. Vulgar language. Verbal obscenity. Swear words.


Surely you can post the contrast, can't you?
If you can't, please let me know.

Bold empty claims of something to be self evident does not make it so. Bold empty statements of confidence that some sort of hypothetical test will demonstrate your claim, even though you claim it the next sentence that the test itself can never be done in actuality to your satisfaction can only be described as delusional hubris.
It is quite clear from your post then that you do not have any evidence at all. Do you not understand that you have provided not a single shared of evidence that people who sincerely study and apply the Bible are consistently better in ANY of these characteristics you state over people who consistently and sincerely follow any of the other major worldviews (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Humanism etc.). There are lots of insincere people in every worldview. It is not self evident at all that once you remove insincere hypocrites, the followers of the Bible will do better than the sincere appliers of other world views.
So...either provide evidence or acknowledge that you do not have any