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Spiritual Experiences

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
The question is meant to contrast a phenomenon we experience with one we do not. Pain is subjective. People experience pain in different degrees. What is painful to you, may not be painful to me. Yet you can understand and accept this because you do, in fact, experience pain.

Now technically speaking, you are not aware that others experience pain at all. You are just able to relate and you then take others' word that they too experience pain. But there are other things we can observe beyond just their statements of pain. We can observe how those experiences impact their actions, we can observe their consistency in relaying their experiences, we can compare those experiences to other testimonies, we can even observe brain function and how it differs.

It could be an act, but that doesn't really jive with our other observations of other people. So it is with claims of spiritual experiences. Maybe not all, but it is relatively clear that some people are experiencing something that they largely relay as a spiritual experience. Now either a) you have not experienced the same thing as the people making the claims or b) you have experienced the same thing and would use different language to describe that experience.

If a) why have you not experienced this. If b) then what induced the experience and how do you describe it?
I don't just know about pain that others experience because I also experience it. That certainly is strong supporting evidence for it, though. Pain can be measured though. Pain centers in the brain have been located and tested. Nerve endings have a measurable response. I don't even need that much to test it though. When I was a child, I hurt others (and I've learned better since then). People can't just act on a split second when they don't see something coming. Instead, an instant reaction takes over. It's a very clear response that I've seen many times.

I can't see the same with "spiritual experiences" because I don't even know what I'm supposed to be seeing. People say they have this vague experience that I can't even begin to relate to and I don't know what they are talking about. To me it just seems like people are talking about strong emotions, but they claim it is more than that. What is it and how can I know that it is real? Can you explain in more detail what it is you're experiencing and why it's not just a normal emotional response?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Can you think of any grouping for them? Temporal, geographical, social, etc?

Maybe temporal in the sense they have tended to cluster together in various periods of my life, rather than being evenly distributed over the years. But only tended. Nothing beyond that.

I'm talking here of a range of different kinds of mystical experiences, not just what I call "The Mystical Experience" -- which is an experience of oneness. But I never discuss the details of such experiences except -- on exceedingly rare occasions -- with a very few people who are both very close friends and very interested in such experiences. Even then, I usually avoid discussing the details. Such discussions make it too hard to forget the experiences, for one thing.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I don't just know about pain that others experience because I also experience it. That certainly is strong supporting evidence for it, though. Pain can be measured though. Pain centers in the brain have been located and tested. Nerve endings have a measurable response. I don't even need that much to test it though. When I was a child, I hurt others (and I've learned better since then). People can't just act on a split second when they don't see something coming. Instead, an instant reaction takes over. It's a very clear response that I've seen many times.
It seems you have echoed my sentiment that we can accept experiences of others based on extrinsic evidence.
I can't see the same with "spiritual experiences" because I don't even know what I'm supposed to be seeing. People say they have this vague experience that I can't even begin to relate to and I don't know what they are talking about. To me it just seems like people are talking about strong emotions, but they claim it is more than that. What is it and how can I know that it is real?
And I would agree that we have a better understanding of pain than we do spiritual experiences. But that does not mean that we are left with no evidence.
Can you explain in more detail what it is you're experiencing and why it's not just a normal emotional response?
No. Because I also do not have these experiences. But I am aware that they occur. Well I am aware that a group of people are experiencing something that is in part measurable and consistent. I am aware that the people who do have these experiences often label them as spiritual experiences. What do you mean by normal emotional response? Normal emotional response to what? What is the baseline for a normal emotional response? I think that these experiences seem to be frequent enough to call them normal. But they also seem to be distinct enough for those who experience them to differentiate them from other emotional responses.
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
And I would agree that we have a better understanding of pain than we do spiritual experiences. But that does not mean that we are left with no evidence.

This evidence is what I've been asking for, or at least an explanation relating to evidence.

No. Because I also do not have these experiences. But I am aware that they occur. Well I am aware that a group of people are experiencing something that is in part measurable and consistent. I am aware that the people who do have these experiences often label them as spiritual experiences. What do you mean by normal emotional response? Normal emotional response to what? What is the baseline for a normal emotional response? I think that these experiences seem to be frequent enough to call them normal. But they also seem to be distinct enough for those who experience them to differentiate them from other emotional responses.

I'm just trying to understand what this is. Please explain it to me as you understand it. I don't want to introduce a debate (I'm aware of the forum section this is in, but it's not what I'm seeking).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Maybe temporal in the sense they have tended to cluster together in various periods of my life, rather than being evenly distributed over the years. But only tended. Nothing beyond that.

I'm talking here of a range of different kinds of mystical experiences, not just what I call "The Mystical Experience" -- which is an experience of oneness. But I never discuss the details of such experiences except -- on exceedingly rare occasions -- with a very few people who are both very close friends and very interested in such experiences. Even then, I usually avoid discussing the details. Such discussions make it too hard to forget the experiences, for one thing.
And that is fair enough. I wouldn't want you to discuss that which you did not want to discuss.

On a side note, surely you would acknowledge that while there is no discernable pattern from your point of view, there very well could be as there are too many variables for you to have known. It sounds like you can rule out some though. Time of day or season do not seem relevant as you would have noted such. You probably would have noted major dietary patterns. It is interesting that you talk about different types of mystical experiences. Do you think that in your and others experience there is a commonality? Obviously a feeling of oneness or connection is a common theme among spiritual experiences. This could be connecting with life or even non-liVing entities such as rivers and rocks. Could you resource any experiences that you have read about that were not related to connectedness?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
This evidence is what I've been asking for, or at least an explanation relating to evidence.



I'm just trying to understand what this is. Please explain it to me as you understand it. I don't want to introduce a debate (I'm aware of the forum section this is in, but it's not what I'm seeking).
Near as I can tell, most spiritual experiences revolve around connectedness. They can be accompanied with other feelings but at the heart always seems to be a connection. An earlier user posted a study which cited several other studies. There seems to be no lack of study, I have heard about different bits here and there. But a Google search will demonstrate the varied nature of the research. I too am trying to understand the research. Hopefully others who have done the research will contribute. But we do have studies noting real world changes and benefits, we have studies that demonstrating similar brain patterning such as less activity in the parietal lobe. I believe there are other studies showing increased activity in the temporal lobe. We also see a consistency in the attribution to the label spiritual. While this latter aspect may be a product of our language it cannot be ignored that we have a class of experience that people can generally recognize.


Perhaps I can compare this to lucid dreaming to make myself more clear. I regularly (nearly every sleep) experience lucid dreams. Some may never experience them. I am not sure how I could prove to someone my personal experience, but lucid dreaming has been documented in lab settings. The experience is that of being conscious while asleep. Is it possible that there is another explanation? Sure. But either way, I am left with the experience of being conscious or similar to conscious in my sleep. That I and others have this sensation is not really what is or should be in dispute. Similarly, that others have spiritual experiences is not what is or should be in dispute.

What we should seek to understand is what precisely is occurring and why. We know for instance that the body can create neurotransmitters, hormones, and other chemicals. Certainly some chemicals such as DMT or Psilocybin have been associated with mystical and spiritual experiences. Should it be curious that normal biomechanics can create the same.

I am not discussing or attacking the substance of spiritual experiences. I am, in this discussion/debate assuming that the experiences are real because I have no evidence to assert they are not. Meanwhile, I do have evidence to assert that they are occurring. Specifically testimony, corroborated testimony, and similar neurological effects such as levels of increased or decreased activity in the brain.

Consequently, I am asking for people to share their thoughts on their own experiences and for them and others to speculate on why some seem to have these experiences while others do not.
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
Near as I can tell, most spiritual experiences revolve around connectedness. They can be accompanied with other feelings but at the heart always seems to be a connection.
This explanation is confusing to me. What is meant by connectedness? The heart is just an organ that pumps blood, so I'm assuming some sort of metaphor for something else is being used here. That could mean a lot of things though. What exactly is being measured and why is it called "spiritual"?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
" A new study from a team of neuroscientists shows that what they feel (spiritual experience) is caused by activating the brain’s reward circuits that control our ability to feel pleasure. It’s the part of the brain associated with sex, drugs, music as well as love. ....

Have you read the paper? In the cited work, researchers did not activate the brain (as you claim). They correlated brain states with verbal report of Mormons engaged in prayer etc. Read the full paper.

There is vast difference between 'correlating verbal reports with brain states' and 'caused by activating brain's reward circuits'. I think that I did not see the researchers in the cited paper claiming the latter, which you have inferred.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
This explanation is confusing to me. What is meant by connectedness? The heart is just an organ that pumps blood, so I'm assuming some sort of metaphor for something else is being used here. That could mean a lot of things though. What exactly is being measured and why is it called "spiritual"?
At the heart cimes from the idiom At heart of the matter. It describes the foundational or central point. Connectedness means just that. People feel connected to someone or something (possibly lots of someones or somethings).
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
At the heart cimes from the idiom At heart of the matter. It describes the foundational or central point. Connectedness means just that. People feel connected to someone or something (possibly lots of someones or somethings).
Okay. So what exactly is happening? It sounds rather vague to me still. If I can't understand something to any degree, I have no way of possibly believing it.
 

Araceli Cianna

Active Member
A) Yes I have had a lifetime of spiritual experiences, enough to fill several books.

B) Over a period of a few months I was very weakly connected to my body and spent most of my time outside of it exploring other realms. But I didn't have control over the experience and found myself mostly in less than savoury realms. Some might call those realms hell. I don't have a name for them. Psychologically, I was considered as having a psychotic break due to complex post traumatic stress disorder. But I experienced and saw a lot, more than a human should ever have to see.

C) The experience was induced part by the trauma of being raised with an abusive father figure for sixteen years, I was already spiritually vulnerable and open to attack. But the experience was also my own doing, in my need to escape from the horrors of this world I purposely broke open my psychic senses to explore the others. But I believe due to my pre-existing instability I only ended up attracting those realms that held the same horrors if not worse than this world. It was a bit of a mess. In short I would said it was induced half/half by trauma and my own stupidity.

D) I think so. If you have taken drugs or been traumatised or have a chronic illness or anything like that, it seems to do something to the brain which changes the way it works and somehow makes you more prone to these things. Personally I am agnostic on whether any of this is all in our minds or does actually have a solid reality outside of ourselves, but nevertheless I can say I have experienced a lot and that it's left a permanent marker on me.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
All spiritual experiences are the result of having a certain part of the brain stimulated. Researchers are able to stimulate this portion of the brain with electrical currents and induce what people describe as a 'spiritual experience'. It's been determined that the manner if which many religious buildings are constructed are designed to stimulate this portion of the brain, in the same manner that witnessing scenes of great natural beauty can do so as well.. The same holds true for certain religious chants and types of music.
But not mystical experiences. Nothing has yet stimulated those.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Okay. So what exactly is happening? It sounds rather vague to me still. If I can't understand something to any degree, I have no way of possibly believing it.

I know your question was directed at someone else, but might I have a try at answering it? However, I don't mean to preempt anything George has to say.

First, you know how your normal, everyday waking consciousness is always, nearly instantaneously, dividing the world into you and not-you? And also dividing one thing from another? For instance, you see a tree and some part of you nearly instantly perceives that tree as other than you and other than the bush next to it. That's a common experience almost all of us have and that some of us are not even fully aware of having because we just take it for granted.

During one kind of mystical experience, that division of the world into me and not me, into one thing and another thing, suddenly breaks down while some form of experiencing continues. What you are then left with -- if only for a very brief time -- is a perception of the world in which all things seem somehow just one thing.

In some cases, called extorvertive experiences, you still see trees, clouds, grass -- whatever you were in anyway sensing before the mystical experience. The difference is that now those things no longer seem unconnected. Instead, there is an overwhelming sense of connectedness.

In other experiences, called introvertive experiences, whatever you were perceiving before the experience dissolves into a single unified field -- often described as some kind of blinding white light.

These experiences tend to be brief and fleeting, often lasting mere seconds, but because of all the things that tend to go on during them -- things like feelings of bliss, infinity, overwhelming sentience, and so forth, are often reported -- they can be wholly life-changing, usually in positive ways. Not all, but a lot of people come away from them convinced they have experienced god.

Don't worry if all of this seems so difficult to grasp. Almost no one -- and most likely no one -- who has not experienced these things can genuinely grasp what an experience of them is "like". They're pretty incomparable, actually.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
On a side note, surely you would acknowledge that while there is no discernable pattern from your point of view, there very well could be as there are too many variables for you to have known.

That seems quite plausible. Although I once earnestly poured over and over a certain experience looking for what could possibly have triggered it and only ended up with endless speculations for my efforts. I think some experiences have obvious triggers -- drugs, for instance. But it seems to me that others might be as spontaneous and unpredictable as possible. You know, for instance, that folks have been looking for a sure-fire trigger since before the Buddha was born, and yet no one has seemed to have found one yet. Drugs, maybe, but that raises the question of whether such experiences are indistinguishable from natural experiences.

It is interesting that you talk about different types of mystical experiences. Do you think that in your and others experience there is a commonality?

Depends, of course, on what you mean by a "mystical experience". I follow one convention -- not necessarily the most popular one though -- in lumping all sorts of things into the category of "mystical experiences", including what I call The Mystical Experience itself. That is, the experience that involves, as you put it, a core or essential feature of "connectedness". Or as I often put it, "a sense of oneness." I agree we're talking about the same thing there.

Could you resource any experiences that you have read about that were not related to connectedness?

Yes, but only because I define "mystical experience" so loosely when compared to some definitions. To me, any experience that transcends rationality -- that the experiencer cannot explain in rational, inter-subjectively verifiable terms -- comes under the heading of a "mystical experience" of some sort. Such things as prophetic dreams and visions, for example, in which someone has a dream or a waking vision of something that later on takes place. Those do not seem to involve connectedness or oneness in the same sense that The Mystical Experience does.

I believe such accounts are generally highly suspect, but sometimes I come across an account of some such experiences that strikes me as possible of being genuine. I won't say, "genuine", because how could I know for certain? But possible of being genuine.

For instance, there are at least two instances in which a Zen master was reported to have accurately and publicly predicted the date and time of his own death. Now, there are all sorts of ways either or both accounts could be fabrications. Or perhaps they were true, but self-fulfilling prophecies of some sort. But in a comparative sense, they seem more likely to be genuine than most other accounts I've heard of such things. If they are true -- and I'm not saying they are -- then they defy any rational, inter-subjectively verifiable explanation for the universe that I know of. That is, they are "impossible" assuming our current understanding of things will never be substantially revised even, say, in a thousand years.

In a way, it reminds me the St. Elmos fire that was seen around the Dome of Sophia on the eve of the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople. The people back then didn't understand what they were seeing, of course, and interpreted it as a supernatural event. That's what people almost always do when they have no natural explanation for an event. But more important, if you look at the "science" of the time, you see they could not have possibly guessed the real cause of the St Elmos fire. The science of the time was about 500 years away from having the foundation necessary for someone to put 2 and 2 together to get 4, so to speak. The science of the time didn't even have "2" yet.

In much the same way, I think it is possible that our science today might be a long way from where it will need to be before we can understand such things as when, how, and why the arrow of time can flow backwards -- assuming it can in the first place. The again, maybe we'll someday be a position to definitely say, "That really is impossible because it is inconceivable that our science will ever be revolutionized to the extent that such a thing would be possible". Some people would say we're already at that point, but I believe they are jumping the gun -- a common human tendency. Or as it was said of physics a few years before Einstein, "All the major discoveries in the field have been made and now the task is simply to add greater accuracy to our calculations".

Whatever the case, I suspect that -- if there really is anything to prophetic dreams and about a dozen or so other "mystical experiences" (and I'm not saying there necessarily is) -- they will someday be shown to be natural events explainable by some future science that is inconceivable to us today.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
People have spiritual experiences. These experiences can vary in form. These experiences can also vary in how they are induced. Some come from groups; some come from music; some come from drugs; some come from trauma; some come from meditation; some come from isolation; and some are even spontaneous. While the substance of these experiences are questionable, the existence of these experiences is often accepted. What I am wondering is:

A) Have you had one or more spiritual experience(s)?

B) what was/were the experience(s)?

C) how was/were the experience(s) induced?

D) Are particular people more apt to such experiences? If so, what commonalities do such people share?

A relationship with Jesus brings me to a good number of spiritual experiences. Events have included special closeness with Christ, healings, knowledge gained from the divine, and more.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
People have spiritual experiences. These experiences can vary in form. These experiences can also vary in how they are induced. Some come from groups; some come from music; some come from drugs; some come from trauma; some come from meditation; some come from isolation; and some are even spontaneous. While the substance of these experiences are questionable, the existence of these experiences is often accepted. What I am wondering is:

A) Have you had one or more spiritual experience(s)?

B) what was/were the experience(s)?

C) how was/were the experience(s) induced?

D) Are particular people more apt to such experiences? If so, what commonalities do such people share?

My short answers are...

Yes, I have had a series of important spiritual experiences and a number of minor ones.

I have had dreams, waking meditations/reflections/personal realizations, several major non-fiction writing projects were essentially spiritual for me.

I think that inner psychic conflict was probably the most important inducer of these experiences.

I think that people who identify with their intuitive cognitive function(s) are more likely to self-report as having spiritual experiences.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And how do you distinguish between a mystical experience and a spiritual experience?
Spiritual experiences are more emotional or aesthetic in nature. Mystical experiences are associated with "Eureka" type of insightful knowing and meaningful synthesis on a global scale.
 
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