• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Spiritual or LaVeyan Satanism?

ColonySatan

New Member
Hello, well yeah I considered becoming a Satanist like two weeks ago but now I'm struggling between LaVeyan and Spiritual Satanism. Yes, I contacted the Church of Satan and asked questions and I did read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible like two times. But now I also heard about Spiritual Satanism. Well, now I don't know which one to join. I agree with everything in LaVeyan's Satanism except that I DO believe in supernatural and that I DON'T want to be sellfish. These are the only two things I don't agree with. But I do with everything else. So what do you think would be better for me to become a Spiritual or LaVeyan Satanist? THANKS FOR ALL THE ANSWERS.
(Oh, and please don't write things like: did you consider it carefullly YES I DID).
 

Yadon

Active Member
Do you like Ayn Rand, antitheism, and bad costumes? Then the Church of Satan is for you! They believe in socio-economic stratification, laissez faire capitalism and hedonism. Also if you are anything but agnostic or an atheist, the Church of Satan will NOT accept you.

Do you like things that are kind of like paganism but more dark in style? Are you not an atheist? Do you like meditation and mysticism? Then spiritual Satanism is more for you.

Just stay clear of the far-right in either case and you should be fine.
 

ColonySatan

New Member
So yeah I'm joining Spiritual Satanism, but does that mean that I really have to write my name in blood and screaming Hail Satan?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Do you like Ayn Rand, antitheism, and bad costumes? Then the Church of Satan is for you! They believe in socio-economic stratification, laissez faire capitalism and hedonism. Also if you are anything but agnostic or an atheist, the Church of Satan will NOT accept you.

Do you like things that are kind of like paganism but more dark in style? Are you not an atheist? Do you like meditation and mysticism? Then spiritual Satanism is more for you.

Just stay clear of the far-right in either case and you should be fine.

Not entirely. There are quite a few members with a pantheistic view, it's even popularly believe Anton himself was a pantheist.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Hello, well yeah I considered becoming a Satanist like two weeks ago but now I'm struggling between LaVeyan and Spiritual Satanism. Yes, I contacted the Church of Satan and asked questions and I did read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible like two times. But now I also heard about Spiritual Satanism. Well, now I don't know which one to join. I agree with everything in LaVeyan's Satanism except that I DO believe in supernatural and that I DON'T want to be sellfish. These are the only two things I don't agree with. But I do with everything else. So what do you think would be better for me to become a Spiritual or LaVeyan Satanist? THANKS FOR ALL THE ANSWERS.
(Oh, and please don't write things like: did you consider it carefullly YES I DID).

Spiritual Satanism is such a general term itself, there's no one philosophy behind the term; I'm sure there are spiritual Satanists who share some philosophical beliefs with the CoS, only their metaphysical outlook is more spiritual.

Satanism isn't about selfishness in the way it is commonly defined (as narcissism). If you wish to put other people before yourself, then do so, because that is what you want, right? It's all about doing the things you feel comfortable with doing.
 

Kemble

Active Member
Hey ColonySatan. The self-interest thing trips a lot of people. Here's a nice story from Zig Zigler's Selling 101 that illustrates how contributing through integrity to your immediate surroundings comes back to serve you. This is mature selfishness in practice and creates a symbiotic relationship where both benefit. The opposite is self-absorption and disconnect from the social environment your ego is situated within, and that only starves your ego. You are of course free to do that or its opposite: to sacrifice your self to others with no return benefit; but, keep in mind these never work too well.

Selling 101 said:
At one point in his career with Terminix, Robert had a new salesman who got a little overzealous. Late one Friday afternoon, a client called with a serious problem. Bees were swarming around his home and placing the family in distress. Robert assigned his new man to the seemingly simple task, but as the salesman headed out the door, he called back, "Has anyone ever sold a $200 `bee job'?" The others smiled at his "bravado" and said, "No." When the new man returned in less than thirty minutes with a check for $225, everyone was quite amazed. The telephone interrupted the excitement that bringing in a check for the largest "bee job" ever was generating. Robert answered, and the man who had signed the check was on the phone. "I just wanted to call and thank you for responding so quickly and getting rid of my problem," the man began. "Those bees were a real concern, and your man certainly did the job."

"But I was wondering," he continued, "if $225 was normal for a fifteen-minute job." "Are you going to be home for the next few minutes?" was Robert's immediate response. When he got an affirmative answer, Robert put the salesman and the check in his car. When they arrived at the man's home, Robert walked right up to the man and said, "Sir, I'm afraid we got a little carried away with our enthusiasm. Since I had not clearly explained the parameters of this job and how it should be billed to our new salesman, we overcharged you. (Notice that he did nothing to embarrass the salesman, though he had in fact explained exactly how to do the job and said that it was a $125 job at the most.) So this one's on us." With that, he handed the man his check.

"Well, that's mighty kind of you," the man said, "but I still have this problem with roaches and ants. Can you do that for me at no charge, too?" They all laughed, even as Robert wrote out the contract for the $300 sale that resulted from his ethics, integrity, and honesty. Had they kept the check for the "record" (and unfair) bee job, they would have had a client who wondered if he had been "ripped off." By their returning the money and doing the right thing, Robert's company was rewarded with a larger sale and a long-term client. When you are honest and ethical and live with integrity, your rewards are guaranteed. They may not happen as quickly as they did for Robert Davis, but just like putting money in the bank guarantees a return, demonstrating the qualities of honesty, integrity, and ethical behavior will guarantee a positive return in your career.

Orgs-- I only have contact with a few folks in the Church of Satan. Interesting people with interesting lives and quite a big tent despite the very basic tenets that bind them together. Many work extensively with the supernormal and Lavey laid the functional ground work for its study and application. I only hesitate to recommend anything else because while the Church of Satan has proven itself to be law-abiding for over 40 years, other groups to the best of my knowledge haven't. I also don't really know if Spiritual Satanism groups exists to a large extent outside the internet. You may get lucky and find one around you to get involved with. Good luck!
 

Yadon

Active Member
So yeah I'm joining Spiritual Satanism, but does that mean that I really have to write my name in blood and screaming Hail Satan?

If you want but by no means is it required.

Not entirely. There are quite a few members with a pantheistic view, it's even popularly believe Anton himself was a pantheist.

He is quoted as saying that God might exist, but that if does he's an *******.

He was by far an atheist, but mostly he was anything that made him popular.

Anton LaVey subscribed to Ayn Rand's Objectivism which is the love of all the right-wing republicans who like to make their corporate friends rich. I keep seeing Fox News support Rand's ideas on economics as well as Rand Paul and many other right-wingers. The matter of the fact is it's an open door to corporate influence on government and plain old exploitation of the lower class and corruption. My point being in mentioning this, at the end of the day he only cared about himself and his fame. I don't know how much money he had though.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
He is quoted as saying that God might exist, but that if does he's an *******.
I don't recall ever hearing him mention that. Have any citations?

He was by far an atheist, but mostly he was anything that made him popular.

If he were an atheist, it definitely was not by far:

To the Satanists "God" -- by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all -- is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live. -- Anton LaVey, The Satanic Bible


Anton LaVey subscribed to Ayn Rand's Objectivism which is the love of all the right-wing republicans who like to make their corporate friends rich. I keep seeing Fox News support Rand's ideas on economics as well as Rand Paul and many other right-wingers. The matter of the fact is it's an open door to corporate influence on government and plain old exploitation of the lower class and corruption. My point being in mentioning this, at the end of the day he only cared about himself and his fame. I don't know how much money he had though.

Ayn Rand's Objectivism is nothing like the "capitalism" we see today on Fox News or via the popular Republican view on economics. This misrepresentation of Objectivism is actually called Crony Capitalism.

Objectivism on the other hand is nothing like this. Here is further mention on the subject of differences: True Capitalism vs. Crony Capitalism | The Atlas Society

Rand Paul and Ron Paul are far closer to her political views. But, while she did in fact influence them (or at least influenced Ron Paul, as he mentioned that in an interview), it is not exactly alike, because in some areas these two candidates did not find a way to enforce all policies associated with Objectivism, only certain pieces, though they do the best they can.

Anton LaVey did not care only of himself; he had a family: wife and children. To say that he did not care for his family is a level of inaccuracy that almost seems troll-ish. He did, however, hold himself of high value.
 

Kemble

Active Member
The Sum of Awe, I only read expositions on her writings and not her actual ones. I thought it was a pretty good introductory way of organizing philosophical questions and ideas. One of the most comprehensive critiques of her writings is by Greg Nyquist and he has a bunch of it included on his blog: Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature
 
Last edited:

ScottySatan

Well-Known Member
Do you like Ayn Rand, antitheism, and bad costumes? Then the Church of Satan is for you! They believe in socio-economic stratification, laissez faire capitalism and hedonism. Also if you are anything but agnostic or an atheist, the Church of Satan will NOT accept you.

Do you like things that are kind of like paganism but more dark in style? Are you not an atheist? Do you like meditation and mysticism? Then spiritual Satanism is more for you.

Just stay clear of the far-right in either case and you should be fine.

Trolling or woefully ignorant.
 
You don't want to be selfish? Is there anything "Satanic" about you?

If you have a problem putting your own needs and desires before the needs and desires of others, perhaps you should reconsider why you think becoming a Satanist is a great idea.

Maybe you could be a Laveyan. But they aren't really Satanists. Laveyan Satanism's only redeeming quality is its ability to act as a doorway to bigger and greater things. Such as O9A.

I mean, what kind of Satanist discourages criminal behavior? For the most part, crime only works against you if you get caught. Otherwise the benefits can be amazing if you are morally suited for it. In other words, if you got what it takes to walk a left hand path- which normally involves somehow exploiting the weaknesses of others.

Even if you end up going to prison, it will either make or break you. You might become greater and gather allies during your time if you are strong enough. Unless you're sentenced to life- but you can still put the left hand path into practice in the pen. Unless you're in solitary confinement for the rest of your life... maybe attempt some astral projection? Lol.

On a serious note... Morally speaking- right hand path religions are supposed to encourage good. You would expect left hand path religions to encourage evil. But no. You got Laveyans running around calling themselves left-hand path. What kind of nonsense is this?

If you are inspired by ideas of freedom and liberation I would instead suggest a path of balance, which is neither left hand or right hand path. Moral balance, when the two sides of man's nature are in perfect harmony, a third nature emerges. A nature many are never aware of. This is the way of Ashtara. Dost thou wish to follow?

Don't.

It's better that way. Whether you're right hand path, left hand path, or in the middle like me, the worst thing you can do is subscribe to a religion and become somebody's little follower. You always end up becoming a sheep when you follow.

Forge your own path. Religion is a weapon. Use it, instead of letting others use it on you.

That being said, explore whatever religion you wish, so long as you don't consider yourself a follower.

But your original question was, should you explore Laveyan or traditional Satanism. Too bad 09A isn't a choice. But between the two, I would say...

Traditional. Full blown devil worship.

Laveyan Satanism is boring. Traditional Satanism is a broad term but at its heart is devil worship. You can worship the Christian devil or you can research other underworld or death deities to worship. Santisima Muerte perhaps?

You'll likely become familiar with the wheel of the year and the witches' Sabbats, which well help help you further your knowledge of pagan culture should you ever decide to merge the two or move on from Satanism. You'll likely become familiar with ritual and traditional witchcraft.

Here, I can even suggest a traditional satanic ritual for you to initiate yourself! Aren't I kind?

1. Go find a dagger. A useful one.

2. Write a letter denouncing your previous faith and God (s) and proclaiming the devil or whomever as your new god. Optionally, offer your soul to prove your devotion.

3. Wait until night and go someplace where you are alone and will not be disturbed. Preferably around 3:00 am when most humans are asleep and the human collective subconscious energy is highest.

4. Meditate on why you want to pursue the path ahead. Sitting within a circle of candles will help set the mood.

5. Light a candle in the center.

6. Read your letter out loud and use the dagger to draw your own blood. Sign the letter with your blood.

7. Burn the signed letter in the center candle so that your new god receives it. Finish with meditation and prayer. Optionally, some might recommend having a list of Goetic sigils with you, so that at this point you can meditate on them and find one that calls out to you, that you relate with- and hence develop a relationship with one as a sort of watcher or guide. For me it was Astaroth which ended up being the great Sumerian Goddess Ishtar whom I have worked with closely ever since.

Oh and be sure to keep the dagger safe as an act of devotion. May it always remind you of this choice.

And there you have it. You've taken your first steps down the Dark Side. That ritual is common in many traditionally Satanic circles, many with their own variations. And remember, ''twas Ashtara who helped guide you in this journey! Now tis time for you to create your own path. Where it takes you is all up to you.
 

Kemble

Active Member
There really is no Laveyan/other stuff per se. Lavey founded the first official, codified, coherent religion of the Devil in the 1960s. What distinguished it from anything else? The fountainhead, the "God" of its worship, is the personal self. He was also bold enough to venture into occult studies in which he removed much of the manure and self-hypocrasy that dominanted the field, creating a real earthly, materialistic, or "devilish" magical practice that was practical and effective in its application. That magic consisted of two divisions: Lesser and Greater. The later utilized a force or energy much more closely related to the emotions that accumulated in ritual and often sent telepathically to targets, or actually "melted" and "molded" the world to its intent within the limits of the Balance Factor. In a certain part of Lavey's estimation Satan was an actual felt force akin to electricity and guides life towards its self-interests (think "Morphic Fields" or "Life Fields" a la Sheldrake and Burr). "God" religions restricted that natural flow through self-denial.

Carnality rather than spirituality, self-interest rather than self-denial, magic rather than prayer, reason rather than faith, and doubt rather than belief (and honesty! most folks that embodied these principles were still afraid to take the Devil's name and wanted to keep their "good guy badges") have long been considered the domain of the Devil; hence, Satanism. The official, honest-as-can-be religion of Colin Wilson's "outsider."

Others really riding the coattails of Lavey's success spun their own stuff as "Satanism" happily (or not so happily) ever after.
 
Last edited:
There is this saying, "the essence is not the outer form".

What Anton Lavey "created" was the outer form of an essence that has existed ever since man first walked the earth. One of many outer forms.

The essence of Satanism did not begin in the 1960s as some would have you believe.

For example, this essence was embraced by Adolf Hitler, but he didn't need to call it Satanism, nor did he have to affiliate with the Christian Satan.

But instead of working as a carnie, then dressing up in silly outfits to perform bogus rituals (as Lavey did) as part of creating a hardly Satanic religion, Hitler formed the Nazi party, took over his country, was responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews, and almost conquered the world, among other things.

Who was more "satanic"?

I rest my case.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
You don't want to be selfish? Is there anything "Satanic" about you?

If you have a problem putting your own needs and desires before the needs and desires of others, perhaps you should reconsider why you think becoming a Satanist is a great idea.

.
And who says doing so is not ones will?
 
And who says doing so is not ones will?

Go walk a right hand path if you will to be selfless. Or incorporate it into a balanced path. Don't claim to walk a left hand path if you are legitimately selfless.

However-

Selfless actions can be a left hand path oriented.

When determining morality, even more important than actions is your intentions. If your actions are selfless but your intent is sinister- like a false prophet or great deceiver, than that qualifies as left hand path.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Go walk a right hand path if you will to be selfless. Or incorporate it into a balanced path. Don't claim to walk a left hand path if you are legitimately selfless.

However-

Selfless actions can be a left hand path oriented.

When determining morality, even more important than actions is your intentions. If your actions are selfless but your intent is sinister- like a false prophet or great deceiver, than that qualifies as left hand path.

Legitimate selflessness is logically impossible.

What do you mean by sinister and how does it relate to walking the left hand path?

The intent over every action done is in some way "selfish", in the less extreme meaning of the word. Even if one performs a "selfless" act, an act that is done for another besides yourself, they are still doing it with an intent of selfishness. The reason for a selfless act has two sides:

Act done of love: When you hold an empathetic side towards someone to the extent that you yourself would be hurt (emotionally most of the time) in the case that said person is. You prevent it, fully aware that it will cause you to sacrifice something of your own - whether that is a sacrifice of time or a physical, possession sacrifice. If you are not fully aware of this, I wouldn't deem it a selfless act, it would be an act out of commensalism.

Act done for love: Getting recognition or a good reputation for performing this action. It can either be that there will be negative reputation if you do not perform this action, or a positive reputation to gain by performing this action. Again, this would not be deemed selfless if you acted upon it believing there would be no sacrifice or if there literally is no sacrifice. It would be an act of commensalism or thought to be an act of commensalism, thus you had no intent of a sacrifice.

Selflessness requires parasitism, but the thing with this parasitic nature is that the parasite is not only allowed to be parasitic, but encouraged. In which it is mostly the flipside of parasitism.

Mutualism and Commensalism are both "selfish" under the less extreme definition of the word. Parasitism is selfish in the extreme sense of the word (but truly the extreme sense of the word selfish has just grown on through age, the actual grammatically correct word would be narcissistic). A selfless act would be the flip side of parasitism as it usually is viewed (from the parasite's perspective), selflessness is parasitism from the victim's perspective.

But the key thing to remember is - the intent of selflessness is always selfish. It's impossible for someone to damage themselves in order to benefit another just for the sake of benefiting the other. Like I mentioned before, the closest realistic thing to that would be an act done OF love, which itself has a selfish intent.
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
For example, this essence was embraced by Adolf Hitler, but he didn't need to call it Satanism, nor did he have to affiliate with the Christian Satan.

This is an interesting point. The Nazis did conjure a very powerful stream of the Powers of Darkness in the 1920's and 30's, misdirected as it was. There are some Black Magicians who believe that the Wewelsburg castle in Germany, where Himler and other elites of the SS performed their magical rituals and ceremonies, is the great Gate of the Powers of Darkness in our time. The Nazis unleashed this force upon the world and redeveloped a nation that was at the time depressed and trying to find pride in itself again after its defeat in WWI. They did it through politics, propaganda, symbolism, mass ceremonies, etc. - i.e. Black Magic. And through that Magic they transformed Germany from a defeated nation into a world super power, though it was short lived.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 
Last edited:

Yadon

Active Member
There really is no Laveyan/other stuff per se. Lavey founded the first official, codified, coherent religion of the Devil in the 1960s.

This is factually wrong. Our Lady of Endor Coven as I've cited before was one such Satanic organization before LaVey, and there were a number of Satanic cults that are on record starting from at least the 1800's.

LaVey made Satanism more visible to the public by means of how open his organization was (most likely in large part because he actually published the Satanic Bible instead of keeping it secret), he didn't invent anything just rebranded some ideas in a Satanic visage. He also helped popularize all forms of Satanism by means of this media exposure.
 
Last edited:
Top