Spiritualism vs. Materialism

[Jayhawker Soule]

Generally speaking, I believe there are two fundamental worldviews: spiritualism or materialism.

I believe the fundamental divide is between idealism and materialism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

On that note, the brain-work not only applies to describing whats beautiful and whats not, it also takes brain-work (or faith?) to say a creator is behind the creation of the universe when, materialistically, no creator signature is "written" on anything that is created. Creationist try to "comfort" the idea that a Creator is behind the universe to give purpose and meaning, but like ugly and beautiful, the idea in itself is only "material" to the person who believes it. Outside of that, there is basically no spiritual views outside of brain-work and psychology.

Which makes this statement: "And in the meantime as that one is trying to contort it to make it work, creationism work efficiently already, without a problem." null from a materialistic perspective.

You can make the statement "the earth does in fact exist" with materialism, but the statement "the earth is beautiful", or "the earth is ugly" does not really fit with materialism. You can try and try to contort beauty into a material substance, by equating it with brainchemistry for instance, but it never really works. And in the meantime as that one is trying to contort it to make it work, creationism work efficiently already, without a problem.

Simply, materialism can only deal with matters of fact, and there are obviously matters of opinion for which spiritualism applies.

 

[JRMcC]

Definitions





Comment:

Generally speaking, I believe there are two fundamental worldviews: spiritualism or materialism. (The "spiritualism vs. materialism" debate is more fundamental than the "theism vs. atheism" debate.)

Question:

Do you have a spiritual worldview or a materialistic worldview?

I'm not entirely sure what my world view is, it depends what one means by materialism. I always say that material interactions give rise to something that isn't material. So I'm materialist in a way, but I think that once complex consciousness comes into being it becomes something greater than the material. Even though it is a result of the material.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I'm not entirely sure what my world view is, it depends what one means by materialism. I always say that material interactions give rise to something that isn't material. So I'm materialist in a way, but I think that once complex consciousness comes into being it becomes something greater than the material. Even though it is a result of the material.

Upside down creationism. Where material is the creator, and the spiritual is the creation.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe the fundamental divide is between idealism and materialism.

Good point. I agree.

 

[George-ananda]

I am a spiritualist. I really like this thread because after much thought this is the heart question of so, so many of our debates here. I hope people really understand what is being asked by this poll.

 

[leibowde84]

Definitions





Comment:

Generally speaking, I believe there are two fundamental worldviews: spiritualism or materialism. (The "spiritualism vs. materialism" debate is more fundamental than the "theism vs. atheism" debate.)

Question:

Do you have a spiritual worldview or a materialistic worldview?

I have both inherent in my world view. It has taken a long time to develop this view, but, after a lot of personal reflection, I have learned to seperate the two.

 

[JRMcC]

Upside down creationism. Where material is the creator, and the spiritual is the creation.

True, that's what it is . I'd be happy to believe that's it's the other way around from what I said but I just don't see the hard evidence for it. The catch with me, though, is that I think consciousness arises from the physical, but I actually think it happens for a reason.

 

[George-ananda]

I've read through all the posts so far and I just don't people are getting the heart of the question. I would say it is not logically possible to be 'both'; they are mutually exclusive.

Basically, it is asking whether or not you think a fully conscious man is made up only of physical matter. Or do you think there is more than can be perceived by the senses (a soul, astral body, atma, etc.).

 

[George-ananda]

I have both inherent in my world view. It has taken a long time to develop this view, but, after a lot of personal reflection, I have learned to seperate the two.

I don't think it is logically possible to be 'both'. Please see my previous post above.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't think it is logically possible to be 'both'. Please see my previous post above.

That is why it took me so long to reconcile these two views. I believe that there is a God in a different form of existance. I believe that he had something to do with the creation of our physical realm, but I can't say that for certain. I do feel that I have a personal relationship with God, but, all in all, I could just be talking to myself, giving myself peace. But, I do not allow this belief and relationship get in the way of my learning through historical and scientific discoveries rather than taking the word of men who lived thousands of years ago. I try to question every assumption I recognize, and I take a lot of pride in this. Does that make it more clear? I come from two opposing views, but I have learned to recognize the limits of both.

Why do you think it is illogical to have aspects of both in your worldview?

 

[RedDragon94]

Definitions





Comment:

Generally speaking, I believe there are two fundamental worldviews: spiritualism or materialism. (The "spiritualism vs. materialism" debate is more fundamental than the "theism vs. atheism" debate.)

Question:

Do you have a spiritual worldview or a materialistic worldview?

I think that I'm half and half. We know that the intellect is immortal because we look to the past to see how those philosophers from way back when to see how they were right or wrong. What happens on the spiritual plane usually affects the physical in some way. Any time we show compassion instead of hatred we make the world a little brighter.

 

[George-ananda]

That is why it took me so long to reconcile these two views. I believe that there is a God in a different form of existance. I believe that he had something to do with the creation of our physical realm, but I can't say that for certain. I do feel that I have a personal relationship with God, but, all in all, I could just be talking to myself, giving myself peace. But, I do not allow this belief and relationship get in the way of my learning through historical and scientific discoveries rather than taking the word of men who lived thousands of years ago. I try to question every assumption I recognize, and I take a lot of pride in this. Does that make it more clear? I come from two opposing views, but I have learned to recognize the limits of both.

You are not a materialist if you believe that there is a God in a different form of existence. You are a spiritualist (of the two choices presented here). I think the word spiritualist scares and confuses many people because it is used in many different ways.

 

[Nakosis]

One can also simply discard consciousness and beauty as part of the false view of spiritualism. Simply constrict oneself to normal matter of fact statements, instead of trying to contort what obviously belongs to the spiritual view.

Not really,

The conscious mind works with impression not actual physical data. Subconsciously the brain creates the impression which is provided to consciousness. The subconscious deals with the actual physical data to provide the impression the feed to the conscious "self". What consciousness experiences is subjective impressions like emotions, colors, pain/pleasure.

It's like you have two somewhat distinct processes running. One, which I'm referring to as the sub-conscious. The other the conscious process. Conscious process is done by these impressions which may not correlate to any actual physical data. However it is derived from the subconscious which uses actual physical data. The subconscious brain creates these impressions to manipulate the conscious processes of the brain.

Your conscious "self" would be purposefully walled off from the physical data because it would be designed to process impressions instead of the actual data.

When you feel pain, that would be an impression the subconscious provides to manipulate you deal with a abnormality with the physical system.

The difficult part for the self is since it doesn't directly access the subconscious process which develop the impressions it has no understanding of that process.

This gives consciousness it's impression of a spiritual or non-physical nature.

 

[George-ananda]

I think that I'm half and half. We know that the intellect is immortal because we look to the past to see how those philosophers from way back when to see how they were right or wrong. What happens on the spiritual plane usually affects the physical in some way. Any time we show compassion instead of hatred we make the world a little brighter.

You can not be a materialist if you believe in a spiritual plane. You are a spiritualist of the two choices presented. They are mutually exclusive choices.

 

[leibowde84]

You are not a materialist if you believe that there is a God in a different form of existence. You are a spiritualist (of the two choices presented here). I think the word spiritualist scares and confuses many people because it is used in many different ways.

I am not a spiritualist, because I do not necessarily think that God has any influence on the physical realm, which, as I stated, could be all there is. I guess I would say that I am a materialist that has a personal longing for the spiritual world. It helps me, but it certainly doesn't shape the way that I think about the COSMOS. So, I certanly am more of a materialist than a spiritualist. The openness to the idea that God may or may not exist doesn't make you a spiritualist, does it?

 

[leibowde84]

You can not be a materialist if you believe in a spiritual plane. You are a spiritualist of the two choices presented. They are mutually exclusive choices.

I would disagree, as I wholeheartedly think that the definition you provided for "materialism" is true. There is no part of me that does not. But, that doesn't mean that I also can't hold a belief in the supernatural if that belief does not attempt to provide a source of consciousness or life.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear specifically why (of course beyond your claim that they are mutually exclusive).

 

[Nakosis]

I am mostly a spiritualist but I suspect this is a result of the brains ability to provide impressions instead of actual physical data to the conscious mind.

Spiritualism would have to do with improving the quality of the conscious experience. It's learning to adapt and better deal with the impressions which get provided to consciousness by the subconscious brain.

 

[leibowde84]

You can not be a materialist if you believe in a spiritual plane. You are a spiritualist of the two choices presented. They are mutually exclusive choices.

You can certainly believe in both if you do not think that the two interact at all, in that you do not believe that anything in the physical plane is the outcome of the spiritual, right?

 

[George-ananda]

[QUOTE="leibowde84, post: 4168084, member: 56049"]I am not a spiritualist, because I do not necessarily think that God has any influence on the physical realm, which, as I stated, could be all there is. I guess I would say that I am a materialist that has a personal longing for the spiritual world. It helps me, but it certainly doesn't shape the way that I think about the COSMOS. So, I certanly am more of a materialist than a spiritualist. The openness to the idea that God may or may not exist doesn't make you a spiritualist, does it?[/QUOTE]
In that case I would consider you 'undecided'.

My comment was based from your statement: I believe that there is a God in a different form of existence. You have backed away from that position which is your prerogative.