Spirituality vs Mental Health

[syo]

God is watching. Now THAT'S paranoia.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes they can do or achieve these good things without religion, if they find suitable ways of doing so, but that is beside the point. The fact is that religion is the resource where many people find them.

It's why people go to church. They don't go out of fear, you know. Just take a look at your average churchgoer on a Sunday after the service.

So what? Is it worth it to hang on to when it fuels so much division, hatred, and bigotry? Shouldn't we do better than ancient superstitions that dictate people be killed over the most trivial and petty of things and repressed over things that don't harm or bother anyone?

 

[Psalm23]

Religious and spiritual factors are increasingly being examined in psychiatric research. Religious beliefs and practices have long been linked to hysteria, neurosis, and psychotic delusions. However, recent studies have identified another side of religion that may serve as a psychological and social resource for coping with stress. After defining the terms religion and spirituality, this paper reviews research on the relation between religion and (or) spirituality, and mental health, focusing on depression, suicide, anxiety, psychosis, and substance abuse. The results of an earlier systematic review are discussed, and more recent studies in the United States, Canada, Europe, and other countries are described. While religious beliefs and practices can represent powerful sources of comfort, hope, and meaning, they are often intricately entangled with neurotic and psychotic disorders, sometimes making it difficult to determine whether they are a resource or a liability.
Research on religion, spirituality, and mental health: a review - PubMed

With regard to mental well-being, do you see religion as a resource or a liability?

In the long run, I see faith based religions as liabilities. IOW, you have to believe in some final reward of benefit that will happen in some conceptualized afterlife. The product is hope. Hope can motivate the individual to continue on and overcome the struggles of life.

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

I think it can go either way. Some beliefs can be beneficial to mental health and others not. A big part is how a person views God. A view of a loving God in religion is good and healthy. Whereas a belief in a God who is out to get you is not healthy in religion.

 

[Psalm23]

This is a short view that talks about religious trauma.

 

[stvdv]

With regard to mental well-being, do you see religion as a resource or a liability?

Religion can be one's Path to Self Realization
I call that "resource" not "liability"

 

[Nakosis]

... and disregards the one malfunction that is most prevalent in the religious: delusion.
I think it can't be healthy to be separated from reality. I'm not saying all believers are and the risk is different for different religions or denominations but I think almost all religions carry the risk of drifting off into make believe.

I often drift off into make believe.
Though maybe the difference is I'm aware it's make believe.

Ok, can be a problem when it interferes with the ability to function is reality.

My point though is the intent, or the draw, or what keeps religions alive is its success at mental wellbeing.

The need for God though persists. Perhaps as an unhealthy co-dependent relationship?

Religion can be one's Path to Self Realization
I call that "resource" not "liability"

One of the Self Realized...
Well, he sure looks happy.

Ok, I realize this is unfair but I'm not sure all spiritual path lead to the same self realization.

Self realization seems like such a self validating term. Not sure I could trust it.

 

[stvdv]

Ok, I realize this is unfair but I'm not sure all spiritual path lead to the same self realization.

I did say "can" be ones Path to Realization
All need to do the "hard" work themselves

 

[firedragon]

In the long run, I see faith based religions as liabilities. IOW, you have to believe in some final reward of benefit that will happen in some conceptualized afterlife. The product is hope. Hope can motivate the individual to continue on and overcome the struggles of life.

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

What you say basically are your faith statements. Bottomline is religions are messed up, bogus, "conceptualised", other than Buddhism, and these are all things that popped up when you rubbed a magic lamp.

Maybe I prefer other religions.

 

[Nakosis]

What you say basically are your faith statements. Bottomline is religions are messed up, bogus, "conceptualised", other than Buddhism, and these are all things that popped up when you rubbed a magic lamp.

Maybe I prefer other religions.

Actually I just saying how I see both working. I'm mentally for myself trying to conceptualize faith based religions vs non-faith based.

And, maybe there are more types.

If you have a better understanding of "faith based", I'm happy to listen. This was just me, from my understanding, trying to put in in a nutshell.

 

[firedragon]

Actually I just saying how I see both working. I'm mentally for myself trying to conceptualize faith based religions vs non-faith based.

And, maybe there are more types.

If you have a better understanding of "faith based", I'm happy to listen. This was just me, from my understanding, trying to put in in a nutshell.

To me, an understanding has to come from some form of research. Occasionally I may have my personal opinion but that too probably will have to be based on some form of research. I dont think I have thought of one of my baseless opinions as my "understanding".

Psychoanalysis is not taken very seriously by most research or academic psychologists because it is apparently less "normal science". And that's according to psychologists in the field of understanding religion and psychology of religion. So your method above is not taken very seriously. In fact, research and academic psychologists say that psychoanalysis is preferred by theologians because that allows them to deal with religion, guilt feelings, moral decisions, relationships, salvation etc. Since you are engaging in psychoanalysis, you are acting absolutely like a theologian as psychologists distinguish.

Thus unknowingly, you are the same as a theologian. While those who you would like to side with are practically don't take you, and theologians who engage in psychoanalysis so seriously.

Read Watts and Williams. You will see that the religious life and the pursuit of religious truth have something in common with
psychoanalysis. Thus, why do you think as an atheist you are engaging in it? In this field Nakosis, there is a lot of study. Some are based on understanding various demographics of people with statistical modelling. I have no doubt you will find them very interesting. There are so many studies you will go crazy.

Bon Voyage.

 

[Kenny]

Religious and spiritual factors are increasingly being examined in psychiatric research. Religious beliefs and practices have long been linked to hysteria, neurosis, and psychotic delusions. However, recent studies have identified another side of religion that may serve as a psychological and social resource for coping with stress. After defining the terms religion and spirituality, this paper reviews research on the relation between religion and (or) spirituality, and mental health, focusing on depression, suicide, anxiety, psychosis, and substance abuse. The results of an earlier systematic review are discussed, and more recent studies in the United States, Canada, Europe, and other countries are described. While religious beliefs and practices can represent powerful sources of comfort, hope, and meaning, they are often intricately entangled with neurotic and psychotic disorders, sometimes making it difficult to determine whether they are a resource or a liability.
Research on religion, spirituality, and mental health: a review - PubMed

With regard to mental well-being, do you see religion as a resource or a liability?

In the long run, I see faith based religions as liabilities. IOW, you have to believe in some final reward of benefit that will happen in some conceptualized afterlife. The product is hope. Hope can motivate the individual to continue on and overcome the struggles of life.

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

I see it as both, and it depends on the person.

Maybe that's the right distinction, but I'm not sure it's really that clear cut.

I think I would agree with There Hammer.

If I were to use the analogy of a car, it could be a weapon or it could be great mode of transportation depending on the person and, perhaps, the religion.

In as much as faith in Jesus Christ (which would be the basis of my viewpoint) has brought me peace, restored my marriage, brought physical and mental healing, like so many, I would say that basically it is an asset. (One report said that children going to church do better in school).

However, I have seen some spiritual psychotics that call themselves Christians too.

Depends on the person... but overall an asset.

 

[Heyo]

I often drift off into make believe.
Though maybe the difference is I'm aware it's make believe.

Ok, can be a problem when it interferes with the ability to function is reality.

My point though is the intent, or the draw, or what keeps religions alive is its success at mental wellbeing.

The need for God though persists. Perhaps as an unhealthy co-dependent relationship?

Maybe a case of dosis facit venom? On the one hand we have studies how religion improves overall health and on the other the study discussed in a parallel thread that religious people rejecting the ToE are not very healthy.
My suspicion is, the factor that predominantly determines if religion is healthy, is the connection to reality. All religions have some level of disconnect from reality and it may even be healthy to have some unrealistic believes but it becomes detrimental when the disconnect gets to great.
And there is no hard line and you won't know when you step over it.

 

[Sirona]

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

I don't like that overly subjective attitude of "It works for me, therefore it must be good" . Buddhist meditation, for example, is strongly discouraged for people with a pathologically weak self, because Buddhism teaches that there is no self. Through Buddhist meditation, you may cause or nurture depersonalization and free-floating thoughts without connection to the self. When these free-floating thoughts are perceived as external - schizophrenia.

I think religion / spirituality, like almost everything, involves questions of "dosage". "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous." (Paracelsus)

 

[exchemist]

So what? Is it worth it to hang on to when it fuels so much division, hatred, and bigotry? Shouldn't we do better than ancient superstitions that dictate people be killed over the most trivial and petty of things and repressed over things that don't harm or bother anyone?

You are answering a quite different question from the one posed in this thread.

 

[Henry Nguyen]

What you shared is very interesting

 

[wellwisher]

Religious and spiritual factors are increasingly being examined in psychiatric research. Religious beliefs and practices have long been linked to hysteria, neurosis, and psychotic delusions. However, recent studies have identified another side of religion that may serve as a psychological and social resource for coping with stress. After defining the terms religion and spirituality, this paper reviews research on the relation between religion and (or) spirituality, and mental health, focusing on depression, suicide, anxiety, psychosis, and substance abuse. The results of an earlier systematic review are discussed, and more recent studies in the United States, Canada, Europe, and other countries are described. While religious beliefs and practices can represent powerful sources of comfort, hope, and meaning, they are often intricately entangled with neurotic and psychotic disorders, sometimes making it difficult to determine whether they are a resource or a liability.
Research on religion, spirituality, and mental health: a review - PubMed

With regard to mental well-being, do you see religion as a resource or a liability?

In the long run, I see faith based religions as liabilities. IOW, you have to believe in some final reward of benefit that will happen in some conceptualized afterlife. The product is hope. Hope can motivate the individual to continue on and overcome the struggles of life.

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

The best way to address this question is to look at how operating system of the human brain is set up and compare how each orientation approaches this. Both do similar things, but in different ways.

If we start at the surface of the human personality, we have the persona which is the mask of the ego. This is the outward appearance that we show others, especially strangers. Picture an actor playing a role called our life. The persona of the Biker gang member is rough and tough, use cuss words, with tattoos and leather jackets.

Below the persona is the ego proper, which is connected to the center of the conscious mind. This will contain things that people close to us will know, as well as things we keep to ourselves that only we know. Below that is the personal unconscious. The personal unconscious is a collection of all our unique memories and experiences, both conscious and subliminal; eduction and life experience.

Below that is what is called the shadow. Like a shadow it follows us around and offers a counterpoint to the conscious mind. Religion often calls this the good and/or evil conscience. The shadow is the crossroads between the ego and consciousness mind, and unconscious mind. Freud called this the ID, which has a connection to human instinct and human nature, often made unnatural or super natural by the superego of culture. Most psychotherapy does not go beyond this. It is more designed to help the ego cope in the shallows of culture, but deep dive into the depths.

Below the shadow begins the collective unconscious, which is connected to natural human propensities that have evolved over eons within humans as a species. These are not learned but are engrained into our DNA; tree of life. The collective unconscious has three basic layers with overlap between.

The base layer of the collective unconscious, above the shadow, is connected to natural human instinct. The next deeper layer is connected to firmware of relationship. Relationship is not exclusively about human relationships, but also is connected to a way of thinking based on how objects and ideas are expected to socially relate. The red suit of Santa Claus works collectively due to the middle level archetype of relationship. We accept the suit, color red and Santa as going to together, by definition. It may not answer why, but rather is defined as what it is by traditions. This is the level of politics. Racism tells people how each race is expected to behave and many people simply try to relate that way.

The deepest level is connected to the firmware of meaning. This firmware is where the why's of reality become more important more than just accepting the status quo of defined relationships based on the prestige of science or money. Empirical science never reaches this level since statistics is designed to tell us how things relate within a margin of error, but not why.

Below this is a secondary center of consciousness called the inner self. This is the original center of human unconscious with the firmware of the collective unconscious similar to the persona of the ego. The activity of the natural inner self would be based on using these three level to interact with the environment as the brain develops and the firmware is populated by experience; data.

Religion to goes deeper into the psyche than psychology. But being in touch with natural propensity seems alien to anyone who is just the product of the superego of culture and the choices of the ego. Psychology teaches us how to better cope in culture, but it does not address higher human potential. This is more the role of religion since these methods developed way before the superego of modern culture was able to manipulate with marketing tools and media.

In the current news cycle, President Biden son's laptop was found and contained information that made him the center of an influencing peddling business. The left wing media ran cover before the last election and keep this secret by lying. This lie was more effective for those without religion, since they have less access to the natural parts of the brain. They are more ego based and willing to accept how their leaders tell them things need to relate, to part of the cutting edge; appeal to the ego's vanity and insecurities. They said Russia did it and the egos were happy with that.

The religious think in terms of eternal truth which is more connected to the firmware of the collective unconscious and our DNA. The DNA stores the best of the best.

Psychology can be useful for helping the ego go beyond itself with the shadow often a place below consciousness that helps the ego learn about something bigger than the ego. However, it typically stops there and does not address the deeper layers of the collective unconscious, since they have little clue of what natural man and woman are.

 

[Colt]

Religious and spiritual factors are increasingly being examined in psychiatric research. Religious beliefs and practices have long been linked to hysteria, neurosis, and psychotic delusions. However, recent studies have identified another side of religion that may serve as a psychological and social resource for coping with stress. After defining the terms religion and spirituality, this paper reviews research on the relation between religion and (or) spirituality, and mental health, focusing on depression, suicide, anxiety, psychosis, and substance abuse. The results of an earlier systematic review are discussed, and more recent studies in the United States, Canada, Europe, and other countries are described. While religious beliefs and practices can represent powerful sources of comfort, hope, and meaning, they are often intricately entangled with neurotic and psychotic disorders, sometimes making it difficult to determine whether they are a resource or a liability.
Research on religion, spirituality, and mental health: a review - PubMed

With regard to mental well-being, do you see religion as a resource or a liability?

In the long run, I see faith based religions as liabilities. IOW, you have to believe in some final reward of benefit that will happen in some conceptualized afterlife. The product is hope. Hope can motivate the individual to continue on and overcome the struggles of life.

Whereas something like Buddhism provides tangible benefits to mental well being that can be experienced as a result of the practice. Which improves mental agility allowing one to deal directly with things like depression, loss, fears etc.

The results of prayer and meditation are self evident. There is a place within where God can be found, the result is a peace that surpasses all human understanding.

Living truth is always revelation. We can all benefit from truth passing through us.

 

[Heyo]

The best way to address this question is to look at how operating system of the human brain is set up and compare how each orientation approaches this. Both do similar things, but in different ways.

If we start at the surface of the human personality, we have the persona which is the mask of the ego. This is the outward appearance that we show others, especially strangers. Picture an actor playing a role called our life. The persona of the Biker gang member is rough and tough, use cuss words, with tattoos and leather jackets.

Below the persona is the ego proper, which is connected to the center of the conscious mind. This will contain things that people close to us will know, as well as things we keep to ourselves that only we know. Below that is the personal unconscious. The personal unconscious is a collection of all our unique memories and experiences, both conscious and subliminal; eduction and life experience.

Below that is what is called the shadow. Like a shadow it follows us around and offers a counterpoint to the conscious mind. Religion often calls this the good and/or evil conscience. The shadow is the crossroads between the ego and consciousness mind, and unconscious mind. Freud called this the ID, which has a connection to human instinct and human nature, often made unnatural or super natural by the superego of culture. Most psychotherapy does not go beyond this. It is more designed to help the ego cope in the shallows of culture, but deep dive into the depths.

Below the shadow begins the collective unconscious, which is connected to natural human propensities that have evolved over eons within humans as a species. These are not learned but are engrained into our DNA; tree of life. The collective unconscious has three basic layers with overlap between.

The base layer of the collective unconscious, above the shadow, is connected to natural human instinct. The next deeper layer is connected to firmware of relationship. Relationship is not exclusively about human relationships, but also is connected to a way of thinking based on how objects and ideas are expected to socially relate. The red suit of Santa Claus works collectively due to the middle level archetype of relationship. We accept the suit, color red and Santa as going to together, by definition. It may not answer why, but rather is defined as what it is by traditions. This is the level of politics. Racism tells people how each race is expected to behave and many people simply try to relate that way.

The deepest level is connected to the firmware of meaning. This firmware is where the why's of reality become more important more than just accepting the status quo of defined relationships based on the prestige of science or money. Empirical science never reaches this level since statistics is designed to tell us how things relate within a margin of error, but not why.

Below this is a secondary center of consciousness called the inner self. This is the original center of human unconscious with the firmware of the collective unconscious similar to the persona of the ego. The activity of the natural inner self would be based on using these three level to interact with the environment as the brain develops and the firmware is populated by experience; data.

Religion to goes deeper into the psyche than psychology. But being in touch with natural propensity seems alien to anyone who is just the product of the superego of culture and the choices of the ego. Psychology teaches us how to better cope in culture, but it does not address higher human potential. This is more the role of religion since these methods developed way before the superego of modern culture was able to manipulate with marketing tools and media.

In the current news cycle, President Biden son's laptop was found and contained information that made him the center of an influencing peddling business. The left wing media ran cover before the last election and keep this secret by lying. This lie was more effective for those without religion, since they have less access to the natural parts of the brain. They are more ego based and willing to accept how their leaders tell them things need to relate, to part of the cutting edge; appeal to the ego's vanity and insecurities. They said Russia did it and the egos were happy with that.

The religious think in terms of eternal truth which is more connected to the firmware of the collective unconscious and our DNA. The DNA stores the best of the best.

Psychology can be useful for helping the ego go beyond itself with the shadow often a place below consciousness that helps the ego learn about something bigger than the ego. However, it typically stops there and does not address the deeper layers of the collective unconscious, since they have little clue of what natural man and woman are.

Interesting hypothesis, were did you get that? I know about Freud's classification of "Ich", "Es" and "Über-ich" (that is "Ego", "Id" and "shadow"?) and I know of Jung's "collective unconscious" but the rest is new to me.

 

[Sheldon]

The results of prayer and meditation are self evident.

Prayer has never been demonstrated to produce any discernible results, only anecdotal subjective claims, and this includes empirical research, where it was tested under double blind clinical conditions.

There is a place within where God can be found, the result is a peace that surpasses all human understanding.

I see two subjective claims and no attempt to evidence them, and if it passes all understanding, then it logically follows you can't make assertions about it. Appeals to mystery have no explanatory powers.

 

[Colt]

Prayer has never been demonstrated to produce any discernible results, only anecdotal subjective claims, and this includes empirical research, where it was tested under double blind clinical conditions.



I see two subjective claims and no attempt to evidence them, and if it passes all understanding, then it logically follows you can't make assertions about it. Appeals to mystery have no explanatory powers.

I see an Atheist heckler on a religious forum denying the power of prayer.