Spiritually Bankrupt?

[A. Ben-Shema]

Why does 5th grade come, even though it was ok to be in 4th grade?

Why should we continue reading through chapter 9, when there was nothing wrong with chapter 7?

I thought each and every genuine Master revealed the same one whole Truth? So you are saying that those who followed Jesus did not get the full picture? Now the teaching is more advanced?

Actually, the Truth that I have experienced is very very simple. It does not require any intellectual ability to be able to grasp and experience. That would mean discrimination between mental abilities. That is why Jesus said that we must become like little children in order to understand, and enter the Kingdom of God.

In my opinion, all genuine Masters have revealed this same one 'complete' and 'whole' Truth to their contemporary disciples.

 

[Popeyesays]

I thought each and every genuine Master revealed the same one whole Truth? So you are saying that those who followed Jesus did not get the full picture? Now the teaching is more advanced?

Actually, the Truth that I have experienced is very very simple. It does not require any intellectual ability to be able to grasp and experience. That would mean discrimination between mental abilities. That is why Jesus said that we must become like little children in order to understand, and enter the Kingdom of God.

In my opinion, all genuine Masters have revealed this same one 'complete' and 'whole' Truth to their contemporary disciples.

Truth is never absolute or complete. The absolute truth of God is beyond human comprehension.

Jesus said: "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now." Then He promised to send The Comforter and The Spirit of Truth to tell us those things and be with us always.

Each of the manifestations of God KNOWS perfectly the Message of God, but He speaks only as He is bid to speak by God. God will reveal more and more as we come to the point where we can bear that truth.

Jesus was not greater than Moses, but each bore Their own Revelation and was bidden by God to proclaim it.

"These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers." For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Imam Ali. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all."
It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established....

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."
It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 52)

Regards,

Scott

 

[painted wolf]

sorry, my religion doesn't need any one person to tell us what Creator wants... that is up to each individual to seek.
No self proclamed 'great masters', just elders willing to teach what they know and help those that ask it of them.

I would personally be very cautious about anyone claming to have the "truth" as told to them directly by "god".
Such boasts smack of megalomania or delusion.

wa:do

 

[Runt]

It is a curious paradox that the more a religious tradition is oriented around providing its members with actual spiritual experience or gnosis (rather than mere belief, ritual, and scripture), the more the surrounding society has tended to suppress it, throughout the centuries.

One of my professors and I got into a discussion about this very topic last semester. He mentioned that religious traditions which are centered around mysticism (by which he specifically referred to personal experiences of the divine) rather than orthopraxy (“right” practice)---have a tendency to be heavily criticized and often persecuted by the religious traditions which gave birth to them.

According to him, this is due to the fact that many mystical experiences seem to feature either identity or union with the divine. Identity with the divine is when the mystic becomes immersed within the divine but remains himself; he comes close to God or the Ultimate Reality, but does not become one with it. He will, however, recognize how like it he is, and desire to unite with it fully, although he cannot do so. Union is when the mystic becomes one with the divine; there is no separation between it and him, for his own consciousness is extinguished and the subject-object distinction disappears. (Constructivists have some interesting things to say about such experiences, such as "how does the mystic remember the experience if his consciousness is extinguished, if there is no observor of the experience?", but that's for another thread, I suppose). Needless to say, most---not all, but most---mainstream religious traditions from which such mystical traditions emerge regard mystics who proclaim “I am God” or “I am as God” to be heretics and their messages to be extremely dangerous.

The reason is not hard to discern. One's association with a belief-based tradition is often rather casual. For example, people marry and give up "their religion" to take on their spouse's, because their religion just doesn't mean that much to them.

I’m not sure this is a fair assessment. Most (not all) individuals I have met who claim to belong to a religious tradition are, in fact, deeply spiritual. Their adherence to their belief system is not casual, but is based upon an intense emotional connection to their concept of the divine as well as profound faith that their tradition is “right”.

Now I admit that the depth of conviction these individuals appear to possess may not truly be representative of the norm; my field of study attracts believers and nonbelievers alike, and both are extremely passionate about their relative positions. Perhaps there is more "casual adherence" to religious traditions within the general population, but I suspect this is not the case.

But a religion that provides actual spiritual experience changes one's sense of reality, and most states throughout history consequently have viewed such religions as a threat, because people with a radically different sense of reality are much harder to control.

As I mentioned above, I do not think the issue is one of control. The religious traditions out of which mystical traditions arise feel threatened, I think, because many of these mystical experiences claim to bring individuals closer---too close, perhaps---to the divine. This is viewed as narcissism at best and blasphemy at worst in most (but, again, not all) religious traditions. Thus, such mystics are condemned and their messages silenced because their beliefs are viewed as being threatening in a very theological rather than sociological sense.

Many of the new religious movements gain their force from a widespread dissatisfaction with the mainstream religions, which many feel are mostly "spiritually bankrupt" at this point. It is not surprising that many of them emphasize spiritual practice and spiritual experience, since they represent a kind of pendulum swing from the belief-based traditions.

Many of the new religious movements are, I think, merely responding to trends within the larger cultural contexts from which they arise. I know you are skeptical and distrustful of what you refer to as “scientific materialism”, but religions tend to do one of two things when presented with new scientific estimations of “how the world works”: accept them and attempt to incorporate them into their spirituality, or reject them and attempt to shelter themselves from the threatening new beliefs. Thus, many of the new religious movements gain their force not precisely from dissatisfaction with the mainstream religions but inspiration arising from various Modernist trends in belief. The result is a syncretism of beliefs and practices, in which there is an attempt to find a spirituality which seems to embrace scientific knowledge or shape what sometimes feel like cold and “magicless” scientific understandings of reality into something spiritual.

 

[MaddLlama]

sorry, my religion doesn't need any one person to tell us what Creator wants... that is up to each individual to seek.
No self proclamed 'great masters', just elders willing to teach what they know and help those that ask it of them.

I would personally be very cautious about anyone claming to have the "truth" as told to them directly by "god".
Such boasts smack of megalomania or delusion.

wa:do

*nod* I agree, and that's the way it works in my religion as well.

Ben, do you accept only the monotheistic/Abrahamic religions as valid? Because, you never seem to address religions that have a structure and cosmology outside of them.

They do exist, so your sweeping generalizations are not quite as sweeping as you think.

 

[may]

Mark 8:30 "Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him."

Matt 16:20 "Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."





Peace & Love

​

​

Why​

Jesus Christ Wanted No Publicity​

people who are interested in gaining prominence and position exert themselves to get public recognition. They try to ‘sell themselves’ and create a wave of popularity that they can ride to gain power. Jesus Christ, however, was not out for showy publicity. He discouraged it. His kingdom was no part of the world, and, therefore, he had no need for the world’s recognition.​

In connection with his performing miraculous cures, we repeatedly read that Jesus charged those who had been healed not to tell anybody about it. (Matt. 9:30; Mark 1:44; 7:36) He also instructed his disciples not to make known that he was the Christ.—Matt. 16:20.
Nearly eight centuries earlier Jehovah God, by means of his prophet Isaiah, revealed why the Messiah would discourage noisy publicity. Applied by the apostle Matthew to Jesus Christ, the prophecy, as found at Isaiah 42:1, 2, reads: "Look! My servant, on whom I keep fast hold! My chosen one, whom my soul has approved! I have put my spirit in him. Justice to the nations is what he will bring forth. He will not cry out or raise his voice, and in the street he will not let his voice be heard." (Matt. 12:15-19) So Jesus’ directing others not to publicize his miraculous works was really a confirmation of his being the promised Messiah.
Also other factors appear to have been involved. Rather than seeking notoriety and having people reach conclusions on the basis of sensational reports, Jesus apparently wanted others to decide on solid evidence that he was the Christ. Therefore he did not raise the issue of his Messiahship publicly, but let his works speak for themselves. For example, on one occasion Jews encircled him, saying: "How long are you to keep our souls in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us outspokenly." Jesus replied: "I told you, and yet you do not believe. The works that I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me. But you do not believe, because you are none of my sheep." (John 10:24-26) Yes, those proving themselves to be Jesus’ "sheep" had ample evidence for making a decision respecting his being the Christ.

 

[Popeyesays]

Persecution of a new religion by the old is part and parcel of the cycle of religion. Abraham had to flee from His city. Zoroaster was first belittled only in the last few years of His life was He supported by the King. Jesus was mocked, derided and finally killed by the Pharisees. Muhammad was driven forth under threat of His life by the ido9lators of Mecca. The Bab was imprisoned, and finally executed. Twenty thousand of His followers were persecuted and killed. Baha`u'llah was exiled, imprisoned and spent forty years of His life under those conditions never returning home.

Those who draw their power from the religion of the land are threatened by the advent of a new faith. Their power is undermined, their social position is toppled, their livlihood withdrawn. A religion in it's senescence gives birth to a new religion. It is the cycle of Revelation.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

I thought each and every genuine Master revealed the same one whole Truth? So you are saying that those who followed Jesus did not get the full picture? Now the teaching is more advanced?

Do you think we are not now in a better position to understand more than people would have been, say, millenia ago?

Are you suggesting that humanity has not progressed in some ways?

Actually, the Truth that I have experienced is very very simple. It does not require any intellectual ability to be able to grasp and experience. That would mean discrimination between mental abilities.

I don't think mental abilities are necessary to find God either.

But I also don't think being one of some top secret select few who are "worthy" is necessary either.

Both are forms of elitism that shut out masses of humanity, and I reject those ideas out of hand as being incompatible with the notion of a loving God.

[quote[In my opinion, all genuine Masters have revealed this same one 'complete' and 'whole' Truth to their contemporary disciples.
[/quote]

That, I suppose, you would have to take up with Jesus.

Well, Scott already mentioned that.

 

[lunamoth]

NEWSFLASH!

Doppelganger has just broken all the rules and posted the SECRET for all and sundry to read for themselves!!!

Take cover, with this kind of information loose in the world, the end is surely nigh.

Secret Truth: only for the eyes of the Elect!

 

[sojourner]

only for the eyes of the Elect!

Let's see...that would leave all of us out with the exception of...

 

[doppelganger]

Let's see...that would leave all of us out with the exception of...

Me, of course . . . :slap:

 

[sojourner]

That's not who I was going to mention...

 

[Booko]

One of my professors and I got into a discussion about this very topic last semester. He mentioned that religious traditions which are centered around mysticism (by which he specifically referred to personal experiences of the divine) rather than orthopraxy (“right” practice)---have a tendency to be heavily criticized and often persecuted by the religious traditions which gave birth to them.

According to him, this is due to the fact that many mystical experiences seem to feature either identity or union with the divine. Identity with the divine is when the mystic becomes immersed within the divine but remains himself; he comes close to God or the Ultimate Reality, but does not become one with it. He will, however, recognize how like it he is, and desire to unite with it fully, although he cannot do so. Union is when the mystic becomes one with the divine; there is no separation between it and him, for his own consciousness is extinguished and the subject-object distinction disappears. (Constructivists have some interesting things to say about such experiences, such as "how does the mystic remember the experience if his consciousness is extinguished, if there is no observor of the experience?", but that's for another thread, I suppose). Needless to say, most---not all, but most---mainstream religious traditions from which such mystical traditions emerge regard mystics who proclaim “I am God” or “I am as God” to be heretics and their messages to be extremely dangerous.

I'd love to peel this off into its own thread, Runt.

 

[Booko]

Ben, do you accept only the monotheistic/Abrahamic religions as valid? Because, you never seem to address religions that have a structure and cosmology outside of them.

They do exist, so your sweeping generalizations are not quite as sweeping as you think.

Even within the Abrahamic religions there are entire religions that do not at all fit his sweeping generalizations. As for the others, they are treated as if they are all and always as the generalization says, when it may be a historical blip or a subgroup at most.

 

[Popeyesays]

"Valid religions"? With few exceptions (man-made religions like LaVey's Church of Satan or Scientology [which is a philosophy not a religion]), all religions are from God.

Now does that mean an animist or totemist's religion is from God/ I would say it WAS from God. We trace Abraham to the FIRST monotheist religion. He made that claim when He smashed the idols in the Qiblih. So all Abrahamic religions ARE monotheistic.

I would include Hinduism in that tally. Why? Because hinduism is essentially monotheistic-there being but a single Godhead, the 'gods' are avatars for the qualities and attributes of God and not Gods themselves.

Some would quibble over Buddhism being a religion at all, but I accept it as such and consider it monotheistic because it believes in an "Unformed" (Uncreated).

Even the pantheons of Greece, Rome and Paganism speak of the gods being formed or created by a Greater Creator than themselves.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

NEWSFLASH!

Doppelganger has just broken all the rules and posted the SECRET for all and sundry to read for themselves!!!

Take cover, with this kind of information loose in the world, the end is surely nigh.

Secret Truth: only for the eyes of the Elect!

You mean the secret that sock puppets really rule the world?

(Gee, I hope paper socks are ok)

 

[lunamoth]

You mean the secret that sock puppets really rule the world?

(Gee, I hope paper socks are ok)

We will each see our own truth in dopp's post.

 

[Runt]

[/color][/font][/color]I'd love to peel this off into its own thread, Runt.

Kay.

 

[Booko]

Spiritually - NO.

Ah, so you're saying that humans now have no more capacity than humans 10 thousand or even a million years ago, who were scrabbling just to stay alive?

Spiritually - NO, humanity has not progressed. Materially and intellectually, yes!

Ah, well, if we haven't progressed a jot in a million years, then I see no reason why we should continue to exist, worthless muck that we are. Let's just turn it over to the cockroaches. I hear God has a particular fondness for beetles anyway.

It is simply your ego which is interpreting what I say incorrectly. If you read any genuine Spiritual Scripture you will find it stated, quite clearly, that God reveals Himself only to those who are ready and able to accept Him. Have you never heard of the "chosen" few?

Yes, and I've read the rest of several scriptures as well. I don't find it too useful to make interpretations based on reading a few verses and ignoring the rest, sorry.