feneluscliff
Member
What really happens at death?
Provide bible texts please
Provide bible texts please
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State of the dead?
- Thread starter feneluscliff
- Start date
cataway
Well-Known Member
The cessation of all functions of life, hence, the opposite of life. (De 30:15, 19) In the Bible the same original-language words for “death” or “dying” are applied to humans, animals, and plants. (Ec 3:19; 9:5; Joh 12:24; Jude 12; Re 16:3) However, for humans and animals the Bible shows the vital function of the blood in maintaining life, stating that “the soul of the flesh is in the blood.” (Le 17:11, 14; Ge 4:8-11; 9:3, 4) Both humans and animals are spoken of as ‘expiring,’ that is, ‘breathing out’ the breath of life (Heb., nish·mathʹ chai·yimʹ). (Ge 7:21, 22; compare Ge 2:7.) And the Scriptures show that death in humans and animals follows the loss of the spirit (active force) of life
Forever_Catholic
Active Member
“Death” in the Bible, often refers to spiritual death, most especially so when referenced by God. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. This is the death that Adam and Eve brought onto themselves and their descendants on the day of their disobedience in the Garden. Spiritual death is also the death in Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death.”
And life, from God’s point of view, is not so much about life in the earthly body, as it often is from our point of view. It’s about everlasting life with Him. Souls in hell are in a state of spiritual death, but they are not dead. Souls in heaven “live” because they have eternal life with God.
So the body dies, but the soul lives forever, without interruption at physical death. There is no loss of consciousness. In fact, if a dying person is unconscious in the body prior to death, he or she becomes fully conscious when the soul leaves the body. The mind continues to function independently of the brain, perceiving, learning, and retaining knowledge. An Alzheimer’s patient has his or her memory again. The senses work independently of the sensory organs, even better than they did in the body. Those who were blind can suddenly see, those who were deaf can hear. Those who were crippled can move freely. The soul has no material substance, but it does have a substance and a form, which is visible to other spirits.
There is a very good biblical reference to illustrate this, but first, there is also some observable evidence of it in many near death experiences. Hospital patients revived after clinical death have sometimes been able to describe what was going on or quote was said by the medical staff tending to them while they were dead.
There is a book (available at Amazon.com and elsewhere) called Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind by Kenneth Ring. It deals with people who have been blind since birth who were able to see while out of their bodies. I saw an interview on a documentary with a woman who has been blind since her birth, but was able to see when she left her body during a state of clinical death in an operating room. When she was resuscitated, she was blind again.
This is very compelling evidence because a person who is blind since birth has no way to imagine, much less describe anything of a visual nature because no visual data has ever been able to enter into their brains, and the human brain is incapable of purely original thought, just as humans are incapable of creating something from nothing. People who were born blind are just as blind in their dreams and imaginations as they are in real life.
But this woman described what she saw, as best she could having no knowledge of what color is what and no knowledge of what to call the things she saw in the operating room. She saw the difference between light and dark, of course, and said that she was immediately able to recognize the human form.
The scripture that I referred to above is in Luke 16:19-31. The Rich Man and Lazarus both died and went to Sheol, which is where every human soul went until after the Crucifixion. Heaven was closed to mankind because the union of God and man was broken by Adam and Eve’s disobedience, but God did not condemn anyone to hell either, until they had the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation.
Lazarus is in the pleasant part of Sheol, the Bosom of Abraham, where the good went, and the rich man is in the place of punishment or possibly in the purifying fire. There is a chasm between them, but they can see and recognize each other. The rich man feels pain and thirst even though he has no physical sensory organs. In verse 24, He refers to body parts which no longer exist, but are still represented in the soul: “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
The conscious awareness of the souls in Sheol is also made evident in John 5:25-29 when Jesus said he would be speaking to them, which he did right after his (physical) death on the cross. John 5:25 - “Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.”
And in 1 Peter 4:6: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Now, because Christ restored the union between Man and God, souls who are saved go to heaven, either directly, or after a period of purification as needed. (Revelation 21:27 - “… nothing unclean will enter heaven”). Souls who are not saved go directly to hell. The destination is determined after death at the particular judgment of each soul (Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment). It is Jesus who judges them (John 5:22 - Neither does the Father judge any man, but all judgment he has given to the Son).
The final judgment will be a major event at the end of time, when all the souls ever created will be brought together. Also known as the General Judgment, it will be the judgment of nations and of all mankind. There won’t be any change in the status of those already saved or condemned in their particular judgments, but all the souls will receive new, incorruptible bodies at that time. The bodies of the saved will be perfected, glorified bodies with special properties as described by Saint Paul in 1 Corinthians.
And life, from God’s point of view, is not so much about life in the earthly body, as it often is from our point of view. It’s about everlasting life with Him. Souls in hell are in a state of spiritual death, but they are not dead. Souls in heaven “live” because they have eternal life with God.
So the body dies, but the soul lives forever, without interruption at physical death. There is no loss of consciousness. In fact, if a dying person is unconscious in the body prior to death, he or she becomes fully conscious when the soul leaves the body. The mind continues to function independently of the brain, perceiving, learning, and retaining knowledge. An Alzheimer’s patient has his or her memory again. The senses work independently of the sensory organs, even better than they did in the body. Those who were blind can suddenly see, those who were deaf can hear. Those who were crippled can move freely. The soul has no material substance, but it does have a substance and a form, which is visible to other spirits.
There is a very good biblical reference to illustrate this, but first, there is also some observable evidence of it in many near death experiences. Hospital patients revived after clinical death have sometimes been able to describe what was going on or quote was said by the medical staff tending to them while they were dead.
There is a book (available at Amazon.com and elsewhere) called Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind by Kenneth Ring. It deals with people who have been blind since birth who were able to see while out of their bodies. I saw an interview on a documentary with a woman who has been blind since her birth, but was able to see when she left her body during a state of clinical death in an operating room. When she was resuscitated, she was blind again.
This is very compelling evidence because a person who is blind since birth has no way to imagine, much less describe anything of a visual nature because no visual data has ever been able to enter into their brains, and the human brain is incapable of purely original thought, just as humans are incapable of creating something from nothing. People who were born blind are just as blind in their dreams and imaginations as they are in real life.
But this woman described what she saw, as best she could having no knowledge of what color is what and no knowledge of what to call the things she saw in the operating room. She saw the difference between light and dark, of course, and said that she was immediately able to recognize the human form.
The scripture that I referred to above is in Luke 16:19-31. The Rich Man and Lazarus both died and went to Sheol, which is where every human soul went until after the Crucifixion. Heaven was closed to mankind because the union of God and man was broken by Adam and Eve’s disobedience, but God did not condemn anyone to hell either, until they had the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation.
Lazarus is in the pleasant part of Sheol, the Bosom of Abraham, where the good went, and the rich man is in the place of punishment or possibly in the purifying fire. There is a chasm between them, but they can see and recognize each other. The rich man feels pain and thirst even though he has no physical sensory organs. In verse 24, He refers to body parts which no longer exist, but are still represented in the soul: “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
The conscious awareness of the souls in Sheol is also made evident in John 5:25-29 when Jesus said he would be speaking to them, which he did right after his (physical) death on the cross. John 5:25 - “Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.”
And in 1 Peter 4:6: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Now, because Christ restored the union between Man and God, souls who are saved go to heaven, either directly, or after a period of purification as needed. (Revelation 21:27 - “… nothing unclean will enter heaven”). Souls who are not saved go directly to hell. The destination is determined after death at the particular judgment of each soul (Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment). It is Jesus who judges them (John 5:22 - Neither does the Father judge any man, but all judgment he has given to the Son).
The final judgment will be a major event at the end of time, when all the souls ever created will be brought together. Also known as the General Judgment, it will be the judgment of nations and of all mankind. There won’t be any change in the status of those already saved or condemned in their particular judgments, but all the souls will receive new, incorruptible bodies at that time. The bodies of the saved will be perfected, glorified bodies with special properties as described by Saint Paul in 1 Corinthians.
feneluscliff
Member
So what your saying is when we die? We cease to function since we no longer have breath of life? If that is yes, we are on the same page so far
feneluscliff
Member
Sorry I don't uphold the teaching of the Catholic faith seeing that they don't uphold the teaching of the bible, but uphold their traditions are authority and not the bible.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 says: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.What really happens at death?
Provide bible texts please
Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."
feneluscliff
Member
Ecclesites 9;5,6&10
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
God himself has made clear the contrast between the living and the Dead. The living KNOW they shall die! Key word here is know .what does it mean? As define in merriam Webster dictionary KNOW:to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of <importance of knowing oneself.
In other words the living understands,perceive, has the ability to learn. This makes perfect sense, since they have a functional working brain right? But not so with the dead. Psalms 146;4 tells us His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. At death man is conscious of nothing! He thinks not and perceive not. HE no longer has the breath of life, which made him a living functional human being. When God made Adam Genesis 2;7 he had heart, lung, and brain. These organ began to function after the breath of life was breathed into him. So without the breath of life man cannot live and function. It is important to have a correct understanding of this subject. If we fail to believe God's word on this matter, we open ourselves to some serious deception. Such as believing we can communicate with the dead, as did saul. Spiritualism will be one of the endtime deceptions mentioned in Revelation 16;13-14And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Lets us rest of faith in the word of God. As for when we go to heaven that takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ.why at the the second coming? Because Christ is presently engage in the work of judgment according to the account of Daniel chapter 7,8,9 & Revelation 20. It is after this work he shall recieve a kingdom to place his faithful saints whom he will raise from the dead at his coming and the living whom he will translate. Bible is full of refrences contact me and i will tell you were to look. You are now thinking what about those who are now in the grave and thier faith. I assure you that even though they not in heaven now they are at peace for they are sleeping and are not aware of anything. Lets keep our faith in the word of God.
Research was conducted@
3rdangelstruth.freeforums.net
It's on tapatalk follow it they have good stuff on there.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
God himself has made clear the contrast between the living and the Dead. The living KNOW they shall die! Key word here is know .what does it mean? As define in merriam Webster dictionary KNOW:to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of <importance of knowing oneself.
In other words the living understands,perceive, has the ability to learn. This makes perfect sense, since they have a functional working brain right? But not so with the dead. Psalms 146;4 tells us His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. At death man is conscious of nothing! He thinks not and perceive not. HE no longer has the breath of life, which made him a living functional human being. When God made Adam Genesis 2;7 he had heart, lung, and brain. These organ began to function after the breath of life was breathed into him. So without the breath of life man cannot live and function. It is important to have a correct understanding of this subject. If we fail to believe God's word on this matter, we open ourselves to some serious deception. Such as believing we can communicate with the dead, as did saul. Spiritualism will be one of the endtime deceptions mentioned in Revelation 16;13-14And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Lets us rest of faith in the word of God. As for when we go to heaven that takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ.why at the the second coming? Because Christ is presently engage in the work of judgment according to the account of Daniel chapter 7,8,9 & Revelation 20. It is after this work he shall recieve a kingdom to place his faithful saints whom he will raise from the dead at his coming and the living whom he will translate. Bible is full of refrences contact me and i will tell you were to look. You are now thinking what about those who are now in the grave and thier faith. I assure you that even though they not in heaven now they are at peace for they are sleeping and are not aware of anything. Lets keep our faith in the word of God.
Research was conducted@
3rdangelstruth.freeforums.net
It's on tapatalk follow it they have good stuff on there.
Forever_Catholic
Active Member
Ecclesiastes 9:5 as worded in the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Douay-Rheims Bible, which is a direct translation, says “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more…”
Knowing nothing and knowing nothing more are two different things. The dead know nothing more about the activities on earth because they are gone from it.
This verse is often relied on by those who argue against the everlasting life of the human soul, but they are relying on a revised translation that inaccurate.
Knowing nothing and knowing nothing more are two different things. The dead know nothing more about the activities on earth because they are gone from it.
This verse is often relied on by those who argue against the everlasting life of the human soul, but they are relying on a revised translation that inaccurate.
cataway
Well-Known Member
perhaps you could also twist these scriptures ;
(Psalm 115:17) The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Isaiah 38:18) For the Grave cannot glorify you, Death cannot praise you. Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Eccl 3:19, 20..."For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust." (Douay-Rheims)
Death is death. We all breathe the same air and die the same way. Breathing stops, the body decays, we go back to the dust.....and we are no more. The only advantage we have over animals is that humans alone are promised a resurrection. Jesus will call all the dead from their graves......in order to do that, they must all still be in them. (John 5:28, 29)
Last edited:
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
What really happens at death?
Provide bible texts please
our existence becomes dust
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread* until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken.+ For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Psalm 146:3, 4
3 Do not put your trust in princes*
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.+
4 His spirit* goes out, he returns to the ground;+
On that very day his thoughts perish.
Job 34:
15 All humans* would perish together
And mankind would return to the dust
unless we believe the dust is alive and has a conscious existence, then we must admit that we are mortal, not immortal.
In response to Forever_Catholic,
Cataway remarked (post # 9) : “(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.”
Forum members :
I wanted to make a specific observation about the use of such terms as “thoughts” in the context of their usage to support the modern Christian theory that spirits of mankind do not “think” or are not “cognitive” after the body dies :
The root (עשת (618 (rendered "thought" in Cataways quote) is not simply cognitive thoughts according to early Jewish Usage, nor in their mishnic translations. For example, the Jews of 300 b.c. do NOT use cognitive “thoughts” in their translation of this sentence, but instead use διαλογισμαι, and, as Moulton and Milligan pointed out, not a single early koine greek papyrus example had yet been found among thousands that had been found that used this word as simple cognitive "thoughts", but instead refer to the opinions and decisions and judgments mankind comes to inside mortality (particularly in it’s use as a judicial term).
A quick survey of it’s usage in the Masoretic and the Septuagint use of עשת in Genesis gives us easy and quick examples of this point. עשת is generally used, not in describing base cognition, but the process of coming to judgment or decisions, since it’s various uses do not refer to base thought or simple intent, but to processes. For example, עשתin it’s use for “smooth”, is not merely smooth, but something made to be smooth, something that has undergone polishing. In it’s use for shining or bright iron, it is something “forged”, something ”wrought”. Thus, it refers to an “artificial work”. All of these uses are associated with processes. Even as עשת used in “opinion”, it is not a base cognition that is being described, but rather a process of coming to a judgment. This is, I think, why, the Septuagint does NOT use base cognition in psalms 146:4, but to judgment and related processes.
For examples in the masoretic :
Daniel 6:4 uses עשת twice in the context of finding fault, and does not refer simply to a “thought”.
Again, In Genesis 38:15, עשת is again used as a judgment or conclusion that is made when Judah saw Tamar and “judged her to be a harlot”. Again, the usage is not merely cognition, but a process of judgment.
Notice that Genesis 40:14 when Joseph tells the chief butler to “…think on me when it shall be well with thee…(kjv)”, עשת is NOT the word used for “think”, but instead, זכר, the word for “remember” is used instead (regardless of the word used by the translator). Even the word rendered “think” in this verse, is not merely “cognition”.
In Genesis 48:11, the word for the English “thought” does not actually even appear in the Masoretic Hebrew text but is inserted into the English text as an attempt to make some sense of the Hebrew in English. The word "thought" is a contextual guess of a translator.
The next English use of think or thought in Genesis is in 50:20, “But as for you, ye thought evil against me…” (kjv). Again, this verse is yet another example where “thought” is NOT the equivalent of English cognition (nor does the verse use עשת found in Psalms 146:4) but it uses Hebrew חשב as the base term which is to think with purpose, (usually an evil purpose). It can even mean to care for someone in thoughts, but the uses most commonly still involve the process where something is judged or wrought or intended, or planned, etc. It is not merely cognition as it is being used in the example above..
If one considers the Jewish Septuagint of 300 b.c. the pattern of usage is the same.
The word used by the Jewish translators for Psalms 146:4 (145:4 in Septuagint) is διαλογισμοι. This Jewish version also uses a word that is not mere cognition, but in the early koine papyri, refers to decisions and judgments that men make.
For example, in P. Ryl ii.74 (133-5 a.d.) Hunt showed long ago that the praefect using this word used it as the ‘judicial’ term for the circuit of a judge, and, the judgments he would render in this capacity. In P. Oxy III (484:24 of 138 a.d.) this is exactly the use of the term when it refers to Heliodorus’ court and it’s “deliberations” (οπου εαν ο κρατιστος ηγεμων Αυιδιος Ηλιοδωροσ επ’ αγαθω τον νομον διαλογιζηται η δικαιοδοτη...”) P Lond 358:19 of 150 a.d. uses it similarly. P. Oxy IV 709:4 (of 50 a.d.) also has this verb form referring to judicial visits in districts. In Vettius Valens P 245:26 the verb form takes the meaning of “discuss” as part of the process of coming to a conclusion or judgment. Early studies of thousands of papyral documents of Koine Greek showed, as Milligan and Moulton proved, that in the New Testament Greek, the references are to some form of inward deliberation or questioning.
Thus james 2:4 uses a form of διαλογισμος to describe “judges who give corrupt decisions…”. Phil 2:14 (“…χωρις γογγυσμων και διαλογισμων…”) and I Tim 2:8 (‘...χωρις οργης και διαλογισμων...) uses the term to describe disputing and discussion (competing judgments) and not simple cognition. These are almost identical to the common use of Koine in BGU I. 19:13 (ii a.d.) and 226:22 (of 99 a.d.) P Tebt I. 27:35 (113 b.c.) uses the same term referring to an “inquiry” instituted against a person (“…επι του συσταθεντος προς σε διαλογισμου...”). In P. Oxy II. 294 (22 a.d.) and P Fay 66:2,4 (185 or 217 a.d.) we read of fines imposed as a result of an official inquiry ( “…υπ(ερ επιτ(μου) διαλογ(ισμου)...”) There are multiple examples of this. In P. Leid Ri.13 (164 b.c.) the noun represents “original decisions” or “agreements” made when individuals took upon themselves to accept official office.
After viewing virtually thousands of early Papyral witnesses as to how the term was used in Koine Greek (the greek used in the New Testament), Moulton and Milligan declare “We have no citations for the meaning “thought.” “cogitation,” common in LXX and NT, nor for “dispute” though this lies near to the idea of argument in court.” Importantly, it was Hatch who argued that this strange use of the term to mean “cogitation” was found NOT to be “peculiar to Biblical Greek”. It simply was not used as Cataways' comments implies, despite the translator in the above example using it for "thoughts".
Cataway (or anyone else) If you disagree with this point regarding the use of עשת or διαλογιζομαι, you are certainly free to offer us any data from the earliest textual witness for us to consider. Until someone finds good, solid, data that can indicate otherwise, then I think the original use of this scripture by early Christians who spoke and used Koine trumps any arbitrary modern use of this term in Psalms 146:4.
Thus, the early Judeo-Christian theory in the earliest Christian era and their multiple textual witnesses that demonstrate a belief in aware and communicative spirits in hades would have interpreted this verse very differently than a modern christian theory that does not believe in cognitive and communicative spirits after death.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
ειτζνεω
Cataway remarked (post # 9) : “(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.”
Forum members :
I wanted to make a specific observation about the use of such terms as “thoughts” in the context of their usage to support the modern Christian theory that spirits of mankind do not “think” or are not “cognitive” after the body dies :
The root (עשת (618 (rendered "thought" in Cataways quote) is not simply cognitive thoughts according to early Jewish Usage, nor in their mishnic translations. For example, the Jews of 300 b.c. do NOT use cognitive “thoughts” in their translation of this sentence, but instead use διαλογισμαι, and, as Moulton and Milligan pointed out, not a single early koine greek papyrus example had yet been found among thousands that had been found that used this word as simple cognitive "thoughts", but instead refer to the opinions and decisions and judgments mankind comes to inside mortality (particularly in it’s use as a judicial term).
A quick survey of it’s usage in the Masoretic and the Septuagint use of עשת in Genesis gives us easy and quick examples of this point. עשת is generally used, not in describing base cognition, but the process of coming to judgment or decisions, since it’s various uses do not refer to base thought or simple intent, but to processes. For example, עשתin it’s use for “smooth”, is not merely smooth, but something made to be smooth, something that has undergone polishing. In it’s use for shining or bright iron, it is something “forged”, something ”wrought”. Thus, it refers to an “artificial work”. All of these uses are associated with processes. Even as עשת used in “opinion”, it is not a base cognition that is being described, but rather a process of coming to a judgment. This is, I think, why, the Septuagint does NOT use base cognition in psalms 146:4, but to judgment and related processes.
For examples in the masoretic :
Daniel 6:4 uses עשת twice in the context of finding fault, and does not refer simply to a “thought”.
Again, In Genesis 38:15, עשת is again used as a judgment or conclusion that is made when Judah saw Tamar and “judged her to be a harlot”. Again, the usage is not merely cognition, but a process of judgment.
Notice that Genesis 40:14 when Joseph tells the chief butler to “…think on me when it shall be well with thee…(kjv)”, עשת is NOT the word used for “think”, but instead, זכר, the word for “remember” is used instead (regardless of the word used by the translator). Even the word rendered “think” in this verse, is not merely “cognition”.
In Genesis 48:11, the word for the English “thought” does not actually even appear in the Masoretic Hebrew text but is inserted into the English text as an attempt to make some sense of the Hebrew in English. The word "thought" is a contextual guess of a translator.
The next English use of think or thought in Genesis is in 50:20, “But as for you, ye thought evil against me…” (kjv). Again, this verse is yet another example where “thought” is NOT the equivalent of English cognition (nor does the verse use עשת found in Psalms 146:4) but it uses Hebrew חשב as the base term which is to think with purpose, (usually an evil purpose). It can even mean to care for someone in thoughts, but the uses most commonly still involve the process where something is judged or wrought or intended, or planned, etc. It is not merely cognition as it is being used in the example above..
If one considers the Jewish Septuagint of 300 b.c. the pattern of usage is the same.
The word used by the Jewish translators for Psalms 146:4 (145:4 in Septuagint) is διαλογισμοι. This Jewish version also uses a word that is not mere cognition, but in the early koine papyri, refers to decisions and judgments that men make.
For example, in P. Ryl ii.74 (133-5 a.d.) Hunt showed long ago that the praefect using this word used it as the ‘judicial’ term for the circuit of a judge, and, the judgments he would render in this capacity. In P. Oxy III (484:24 of 138 a.d.) this is exactly the use of the term when it refers to Heliodorus’ court and it’s “deliberations” (οπου εαν ο κρατιστος ηγεμων Αυιδιος Ηλιοδωροσ επ’ αγαθω τον νομον διαλογιζηται η δικαιοδοτη...”) P Lond 358:19 of 150 a.d. uses it similarly. P. Oxy IV 709:4 (of 50 a.d.) also has this verb form referring to judicial visits in districts. In Vettius Valens P 245:26 the verb form takes the meaning of “discuss” as part of the process of coming to a conclusion or judgment. Early studies of thousands of papyral documents of Koine Greek showed, as Milligan and Moulton proved, that in the New Testament Greek, the references are to some form of inward deliberation or questioning.
Thus james 2:4 uses a form of διαλογισμος to describe “judges who give corrupt decisions…”. Phil 2:14 (“…χωρις γογγυσμων και διαλογισμων…”) and I Tim 2:8 (‘...χωρις οργης και διαλογισμων...) uses the term to describe disputing and discussion (competing judgments) and not simple cognition. These are almost identical to the common use of Koine in BGU I. 19:13 (ii a.d.) and 226:22 (of 99 a.d.) P Tebt I. 27:35 (113 b.c.) uses the same term referring to an “inquiry” instituted against a person (“…επι του συσταθεντος προς σε διαλογισμου...”). In P. Oxy II. 294 (22 a.d.) and P Fay 66:2,4 (185 or 217 a.d.) we read of fines imposed as a result of an official inquiry ( “…υπ(ερ επιτ(μου) διαλογ(ισμου)...”) There are multiple examples of this. In P. Leid Ri.13 (164 b.c.) the noun represents “original decisions” or “agreements” made when individuals took upon themselves to accept official office.
After viewing virtually thousands of early Papyral witnesses as to how the term was used in Koine Greek (the greek used in the New Testament), Moulton and Milligan declare “We have no citations for the meaning “thought.” “cogitation,” common in LXX and NT, nor for “dispute” though this lies near to the idea of argument in court.” Importantly, it was Hatch who argued that this strange use of the term to mean “cogitation” was found NOT to be “peculiar to Biblical Greek”. It simply was not used as Cataways' comments implies, despite the translator in the above example using it for "thoughts".
Cataway (or anyone else) If you disagree with this point regarding the use of עשת or διαλογιζομαι, you are certainly free to offer us any data from the earliest textual witness for us to consider. Until someone finds good, solid, data that can indicate otherwise, then I think the original use of this scripture by early Christians who spoke and used Koine trumps any arbitrary modern use of this term in Psalms 146:4.
Thus, the early Judeo-Christian theory in the earliest Christian era and their multiple textual witnesses that demonstrate a belief in aware and communicative spirits in hades would have interpreted this verse very differently than a modern christian theory that does not believe in cognitive and communicative spirits after death.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
ειτζνεω
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feneluscliff
Member
Can make that clear for me sir please?
Forever Catholic :
I hope my prior post regarding the improper use of the word rendered "thoughts" made sense to you. It was made in support of the Early Judeo-Christian model which is very, very similar to the Catholic model on this specific point. My point was that Cataways use of “thoughts” as cognition was incorrect and the catholic model of cognition of spirits (as opposed to bodies which turn to “dust”) is certainly more consistent with early Judeo-Christian worldviews than the more modern Christian theories where spirits of the dead are non-cognisant and non-communicative.
For examples from early Judeo-Christian literature where the Christians describe their beliefs in the early Christian movement :
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
Quote:
Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.
ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quotes:
“do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness.
Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
Quote:
.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
Quote:
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the moral change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to choose.
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death
is described in multiple ancient accounts.
For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :
Quote:
"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
Quote:
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
Quote:
“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two) That is, certain judgments and decisions will generally cease at some point upon leaving mortality.
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that :
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Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify :
All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to testify regarding the resurrection of Jesus.
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, such texts are strong witnesses of the early doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.
First, the newly converted Christian Perpetua relates :
“my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
Quote:
“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates
Quote:
“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
In the symbolic language typical to early Christianity (204 a.d.), it is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that
Quote:
“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water.
Just as Dinocrates had been given gospel truths in the spirit world, the gospel must be preached to ALL others who did not have it in this life. This WAS the ancient Christian Doctrine. The Apostle Peter also understood what Perpetua understood. Thus he said "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)
All those who, like Dinocrates, did not have the chance to hear or understand or accept the gospel during their lifetimes. Those who have refused the gospel despite having adequate witness and understanding of the implications, are not offered multiple chances (as John had warned those in the spirit world). However, all who live or have ever lived, must have an adequate chance to learn of; to understand the moral requirements and the choice to learn and live by them or to live by whatever other standards they choose.
Forever Catholic
The point in bringing up early Christian literature is to show that the Catholic model of spirits being aware and cognizant and communicative is consistent with the earliest descriptions in the early Christian literature. I am not sure at what time period the modern theory of non-cognisant spirits arose, but I've not found it in the earliest sacred texts as the Catholic / restorationist model are.
Clear
ειδρσιω
I hope my prior post regarding the improper use of the word rendered "thoughts" made sense to you. It was made in support of the Early Judeo-Christian model which is very, very similar to the Catholic model on this specific point. My point was that Cataways use of “thoughts” as cognition was incorrect and the catholic model of cognition of spirits (as opposed to bodies which turn to “dust”) is certainly more consistent with early Judeo-Christian worldviews than the more modern Christian theories where spirits of the dead are non-cognisant and non-communicative.
For examples from early Judeo-Christian literature where the Christians describe their beliefs in the early Christian movement :
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
Quote:
Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.
ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quotes:
“do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness.
Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
Quote:
.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
Quote:
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the moral change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to choose.
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death
is described in multiple ancient accounts.
For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :
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"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
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“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
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“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two) That is, certain judgments and decisions will generally cease at some point upon leaving mortality.
I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.
In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.
The sons of Symeon continue to relate that :
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Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “
Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify :
All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)
Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to testify regarding the resurrection of Jesus.
There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, such texts are strong witnesses of the early doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.
First, the newly converted Christian Perpetua relates :
“my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)
Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.
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“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’
Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”
Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates
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“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.
In the symbolic language typical to early Christianity (204 a.d.), it is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that
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“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”
Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water.
Just as Dinocrates had been given gospel truths in the spirit world, the gospel must be preached to ALL others who did not have it in this life. This WAS the ancient Christian Doctrine. The Apostle Peter also understood what Perpetua understood. Thus he said "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)
All those who, like Dinocrates, did not have the chance to hear or understand or accept the gospel during their lifetimes. Those who have refused the gospel despite having adequate witness and understanding of the implications, are not offered multiple chances (as John had warned those in the spirit world). However, all who live or have ever lived, must have an adequate chance to learn of; to understand the moral requirements and the choice to learn and live by them or to live by whatever other standards they choose.
Forever Catholic
The point in bringing up early Christian literature is to show that the Catholic model of spirits being aware and cognizant and communicative is consistent with the earliest descriptions in the early Christian literature. I am not sure at what time period the modern theory of non-cognisant spirits arose, but I've not found it in the earliest sacred texts as the Catholic / restorationist model are.
Clear
ειδρσιω
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
At death, we cease to exist. We have no conscious existence according to Gods word. We did not exist before we were born and we do not exist after we die.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Guys, you established the flesh dies. Death 1. Also you establish while physically alive, one can be "dead" to their sins.
Since we are spirits, how do our spirits die after death?
Since we are spirits, how do our spirits die after death?
feneluscliff
Member
I don't know if you read my forum post? But when we die, we are no longer cognitive of nothing. The breath of life that made us a living soul returns to God Ecclesiastes 12;13. The understanding that man can live outside his physical body is a lie from the devil Genesis3;4. If that is true that we have spirits that live in us and after death the continue to live why did Christ had to be raised from the dead? If he wasn't dead? The bible is plain when it says the dead knows nothing! Any other teaching is not from God.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I disagree heavily with scripture. I do believe spirits live after death.
With what you posted, are you saying that christians who die will be resurrected body and spirit as Jesus?
Also, where was Jesus spirit before His resurrection?
With what you posted, are you saying that christians who die will be resurrected body and spirit as Jesus?
Also, where was Jesus spirit before His resurrection?
feneluscliff
Member
You said you disagree with scripture heavily so we will have no further discussion! Have a wonderful day[emoji1]
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Hey. We compare, discuss, and debate to learn from each other not to talk only with people who agree with us.
Thay defeats the purpose of any educating and evangalizing whatsoever.
This is an interesting subject and I would like to continue it.
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Also, my disagreeing with scripture doesnt mean Im making false accusations about it. Atheist who are professional scholars may have studied scripture for years and correct me on what the bible says.
Talk to people who differ from you. You may find what you tell them may bring them To God.