State of the dead?

[Pegg]

Guys, you established the flesh dies. Death 1. Also you establish while physically alive, one can be "dead" to their sins.

Since we are spirits, how do our spirits die after death?

How are we spriits when we are in the flesh?

If we were spirits, we would be in the form of the angels. We would be able to walk through walls. We would be able to enter heaven and see God.

We are physical, 100% bound by the physical world in a physical body which is 'mortal'... it can die. Spirits dont die nor do they exist in a physical body. They are not born like us....they are created by God.

 

[feneluscliff]

Hey. We compare, discuss, and debate to learn from each other not to talk only with people who agree with you.

This is an interesting subject and I would like to continue it.

Ok I get back To you[emoji6]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How are we spriits when we are in the flesh?

If we were spirits, we would be in the form of the angels. We would be able to walk through walls. We would be able to enter heaven and see God.

We are physical, 100% bound by the physical world in a physical body which is 'mortal'... it can die. Spirits dont die nor do they exist in a physical body. They are not born like us....they are created by God.

Thats what I believe. We are not just a body. Take Jesus. He is both spirit and body. Where not ghosts. (Sounds like a movie)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok I get back To you[emoji6]

I honestly hope so.

 

[feneluscliff]

I honestly hope so.

I will don't you worry[emoji6]

 

[feneluscliff]

I disagree heavily with scripture. I do believe spirits live after death.

With what you posted, are you saying that christians who die will be resurrected body and spirit as Jesus?

Also, where was Jesus spirit before His resurrection?

I need more clarification on the first question? The bible saysthat Christ was in his tomb and that he had not yet ascended to his father. John 20;17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Furthermore, Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.59And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,60And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.61And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.62Now the next day, that followed the day of thepreparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.65Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.66So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. Matt27;59-66 and 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matt 28;1-7. If don't believe in the bible I'm wasting time! The word of God is clear Christ laid in the tomb lifeless! Waiting to be raised from the dead! He was nowhere during that time for he hadn't ascended into heaven yet. Had Christ so called had a living spirit in him the Jew nor Pilates would make such preparations to keep him from walking out of the tomb, they made preparations for a physical person, not spirit!

 

[roger1440]

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten
Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First, how are you wasting your time in a compare, debate, disuss religion forum. Im learning something different than what I am accustomed to hearing. I dont need to believe in any religious scripture to discuss the common sense, divinity, and complexity of it. I do believe in divinity.

That said, I read all of the verses. Your comments were mixed in and no need to yell -> !.

If don't believe in the bible I'm wasting time! The word of God is clear Christ laid in the tomb lifeless! Waiting to be raised from the dead! He was nowhere during that time for he hadn't ascended into heaven yet. Had Christ so called had a living spirit in him the Jew nor Pilates would make such preparations to keep him from walking out of the tomb, they made preparations for a physical person, not spirit!

I didnt say He wasnt in the tomb. I didnt say He wasnt lifeless. I just said Christ rose in spirit and body. You gave me verses that says otherwise.

My line of thinking is, we all have spirits. Christians have the spirit of God in them and Christ has the spirit of His Father in Him. So, when Christ died, His body cannot be raised alone. Since He is God (right?) His/God rose His body from the tomb and went back to heaven. Thats how I always understood it AND it may be incorrect.

I will not say I know every historical thing of scripture and I have read the full bible before.

Now that I know scripture refers to physical resurrection of the body, what other points were we making in this discussion?

I have no reason to use divine scripture to find ways to prove you false. I just know what I read years ago and the common understanding among christians i meet.

 

[KnobofBel]

First, how are you wasting your time in a compare, debate, disuss religion forum. Im learning something different than what I am accustomed to hearing. I dont need to believe in any religious scripture to discuss the common sense, divinity, and complexity of it. Im not an atheist.

That said, I read all of the verses. Your comments were mixed in and no need to yell -> !.

I didnt say He wasnt in the tomb. I didnt say He wasnt lifeless. I just said Christ rose in spirit and body. You gave me verses that says otherwise.

My line of thinking is, we all have spirits. Christians have the spirit of God in them and Christ has the spirit of His Father in Him. So, when Christ died, His body cannot be raised alone. Since He is God (right?) His/God rose His body from the tomb and went back to heaven. Thats how I always understood it AND it may be incorrect.

I will not day I know every historical thing of scripture and I have read the full bible before.

Now that I know scripture refers to physical resurrection of the body, what other points were we making in this discussion?

I have no reason to use divine scripture to find ways to prove you false. I just know what I read years ago and the common understanding among christians i meet.

because the dead are raised, why do you believe it speaks of the buried or burned?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

because the dead are raised, why do you believe it speaks of the buried or burned?

I thought Jesus was burried in the tomb before God resurrected Him. Burned? I cant find any relationship to my last post.

 

[KnobofBel]

I thought Jesus was burried in the tomb before God resurrected Him. Burned? I cant find any relationship to my last post.

so you aren't familiar with the additions to the texts?

 

[feneluscliff]

First, how are you wasting your time in a compare, debate, disuss religion forum. Im learning something different than what I am accustomed to hearing. I dont need to believe in any religious scripture to discuss the common sense, divinity, and complexity of it. I do believe in divinity.

That said, I read all of the verses. Your comments were mixed in and no need to yell -> !.

I didnt say He wasnt in the tomb. I didnt say He wasnt lifeless. I just said Christ rose in spirit and body. You gave me verses that says otherwise.

My line of thinking is, we all have spirits. Christians have the spirit of God in them and Christ has the spirit of His Father in Him. So, when Christ died, His body cannot be raised alone. Since He is God (right?) His/God rose His body from the tomb and went back to heaven. Thats how I always understood it AND it may be incorrect.

I will not say I know every historical thing of scripture and I have read the full bible before.

Now that I know scripture refers to physical resurrection of the body, what other points were we making in this discussion?

I have no reason to use divine scripture to find ways to prove you false. I just know what I read years ago and the common understanding among christians i meet.

Sorry if you thought i was yelling I use explanatory mark for important details. The reason why I keep repeating wasting time is if you don't believe the bible our conversation won't go nowhere and God won't be pleased. Their has to be a foundation. What do you mean by spirit?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

so you aren't familiar with the additions to the texts?

No. Just the common books of the Bible. I havnt studied it in years.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry if you thought i was yelling I use explanatory mark for important details. The reason why I keep repeating wasting time is if you don't believe the bible our conversation won't go nowhere and God won't be pleased. Their has to be a foundation. What do you mean by spirit?

I dont follow that reasoning. How would God be displeased by talking about His Word? The foundation I hoped was to learn from our differences and not expecting the other party to change his or her belief even if agreed upon. If you are evangalizing, this wont get far. If you are sharing His Word without the goal of changing my faith, we could have a good foundation of just learning and wanting to accept if not just listen to what we disagree with.

I dont meet too many people like that.

By spirit, I literally mean ghost. I dont like the term though. A spirit is a person detached from his or her body. Ive seen spirits and my family etc. So, its not really a belief for me but a fact. In relation to scripture, what youre saying doesnt match with what Ive experienced.

Its interesting to learn, though, that it is only bodily resurrection. Have you talked with other christians who dont believe we have spirits?

Also, when God became Jesus did He become fully human and not a spirit anymore? Where did Gods spirit go? (Or do you believe Jesus is God?)

 

[feneluscliff]

I dont follow that reasoning. How would God be displeased by talking about His Word? The foundation I hoped was to learn from our differences and not expecting the other party to change his or her belief even if agreed upon. If you are evangalizing, this wont get far. If you are sharing His Word without the goal of changing my faith, we could have a good foundation of just learning and wanting to accept if not just listen to what we disagree with.

I dont meet too many people like that.

By spirit, I literally mean ghost. I dont like the term though. A spirit is a person detached from his or her body. Ive seen spirits and my family etc. So, its not really a belief for me but a fact. In relation to scripture, what youre saying doesnt match with what Ive experienced.

Its interesting to learn, though, that it is only bodily resurrection. Have you talked with other christians who dont believe we have spirits?

Also, when God became Jesus did He become fully human and not a spirit anymore? Where did Gods spirit go? (Or do you believe Jesus is God?)

Now that I know you're a unbeliever I will take my time. First and foremost a Christian foundation is Gods word only. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2timothy 3;16-17. To understand death, you must understand the creation of man. Genesis 2;7 states, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. When God formed man he had a heart, a lung, brain, and etc. But he could not get off the ground! Why? Bible says acts 17;28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. God is the source of life. That is what the creation of man teaches us. When we die the physical body is lifeless like Adam before God gave him life. The creation doesn't teach of spirit or ghost. Furthermore, the belief of the immortal soul or spirit is from Satan! It started at the garden of Eden Genesis 3;4 in that is the basis of modern spiritualism. The state of the dead is important to know! When you believe other than what the bible teaches then you open yourself to his deception. This is Satan tool as it work the ruin of Adam and Eve in the garden. That is why your seeing spirits the devils is manifesting himself to you because your not grounded in the word of God. Sorry for the next quote it is long but necessary. The doctrine of man’s consciousness in death, especially the belief that the spirits of the dead return to minister to the living, has prepared the way for modern Spiritualism. If the dead are admitted to the presence of God and holy angels, and privileged with knowledge far exceeding what they before possessed, why should they not return to the earth to enlighten and instruct the living? If, as taught by popular theologians, the spirits of the dead are hovering about their friends on earth, why should they not be permitted to communicate with them, to warn them against evil, or to comfort them in sorrow? How can those who believe in man’s consciousness in death reject what comes to them as divine light communicated by glorified spirits?Here is a channel regarded as sacred, through which Satan works for the accomplishment of his purposes. The fallen angels who do his bidding appear as messengers from the spirit world.While professing to bring the living into communication with the dead, the prince of evil exercises his bewitching influence upon their minds. GC88 551.2

He has power to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeit is perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness. Many are comforted with the assurance that their loved ones are enjoying the bliss of Heaven; and without suspicion of danger, they give ear to “seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” GC88 552.1

I hope this is helpful?

 

[Pegg]

Thats what I believe. We are not just a body. Take Jesus. He is both spirit and body. Where not ghosts. (Sounds like a movie)

The bible says differently. It says man is 'mortal'
That means we can die... and if thats the case then we most certainly are not spirits.

These are religious lies you are believing in.

 

[JayJayDee]

By spirit, I literally mean ghost. I dont like the term though. A spirit is a person detached from his or her body. Ive seen spirits and my family etc. So, its not really a belief for me but a fact. In relation to scripture, what youre saying doesnt match with what Ive experienced.

They don't match unless someone is masquerading as your family member's spirit.
Do you remember that God forbade contact with spirits under penalty of death? (Deut 189-12)
If those spirits were your lost loves ones, why would God forbid you to speak to them in death if you freely spoke to them in life? That makes no sense.

There is an example in the Bible when King Saul banished all the spirit mediums from the land but then lost his relationship with God through disobedience. When God stopped communicating with Saul, he lost his way spiritually and began to ask about any spirit mediums who might tell him how to contact Samuel, one of God's foremost prophets who had died. God had always advised his kings by means of his prophets, but none of them would speak to Saul. (1 Sam 28:8-19)

His request to find a spirit medium was unusual because God's people had no belief in an immortal part of man that departed from the body at death....the Canaanites however did have such beliefs. (Hence the land formerly had mediums who practiced spiritism, whom God had evicted.) In his desperation, Saul found a surviving spirit medium who supposedly conjured up the dead prophet, Samuel. Saul did not see or hear the spitrit who presented on that occasion, but the medium described him and spoke the words that the spirit said.

Why would a prophet who would not have spoken to Saul in life, now speak to him from the dead in this act of gross disobedience?

It is obvious that the spirit that spoke to Saul via the medium was a demon pretending to be Saul.

Those who have lost loved ones in death want to believe that they are not really gone. The demon spirits know that and they also know everything about everyone....they can tell things that only their family members would know. They can masquerade as those family members, especially when Christendom adopted the Greek belief of an immortal soul. The Bible simply does not teach it.

Its interesting to learn, though, that it is only bodily resurrection. Have you talked with other christians who dont believe we have spirits?

I do not know if there are other "Christians" who reject the notion is of an immortal soul.....it is a belief that permeates all religions....but it originated in Babylon, not the Bible. The ancient Jews only ever believed in bodily resurrection back to the earth under the rule of Messiah's Kingdom. All the resurrections performed by Jesus and his apostles were bodily resurrections.

Where were these ones before they were raised? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, he simply said he was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14)

Also, when God became Jesus did He become fully human and not a spirit anymore? Where did Gods spirit go? (Or do you believe Jesus is God?)

We do not belive that Jesus was ever Almighty God. He was the divine son of God who was given a body of flesh to be born and reside on earth and give his life for mankind. He was a spirit being before he came to earth and he was raised as a spirit when he returned to heaven. When he was resurrected, he did not go back to heaven for 40 days, all the while "appearing" to his apostles and disciples in a body of flesh. Like other spirit beings, he could materialize fleshly bodies at will. Often the disciples did not recognise him. On one occasion he materialized a body with wounds to convince a doubting Thomas. When he ascended to heaven, a cloud covered him as he de-materialized and went back to heaven, (Acts 1:9-11) returning to the spirit realm where he was before.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. When I practiced Christianity, my view of God I found gradually was different than most christians who believe Jesus as God. I believe that God is life rather than created it. I also believe, because so, a part from "him" we cant exist. I believe because God is life that without God, we cannot breathe, a baby cant grow, and so forth. He (which is hard to put a gender on the spirit of life) is the source of pur living. So, I can talk about God of scripture to an extent that christians believe He created life and without Him no life. So, I see some comparison, but not 100 percent scripture.

To continue...

I looked up Spirirualism, and believers do make contact with spirits in the afterlife. I can see why now it is against scripture.

Wouldnt it be safe to say that the spirit you are now, while living, is the breathe/spirit of God? Without His spirit, or breathe in you until death, you wont be alive?

Thats the closest I ca relate to spirits in what I understood it to be.

I like how you said, to understand death you must understand the creation of man. What I read in scripture years ago, one verse in the gospels the others in revelation, but I cant find it to quote, is that spirits are eternal. So we walk the earth until judgement day and christians go immediately to God.

Have you ever considered that instead of my seeing spirits of the devil that I may not have seen spirits at all? Since you posted there is no immortal soul, how according to biblical logic, I can see spirits...instead of saying they are from the devil, we could make it positive and logical and say they could be the mind. Not every spiritual claim has a spiritual cause.

Something you asked:

If, as taught by popular theologians, the spirits of the dead are hovering about their friends on earth, why should they not be permitted to communicate with them, to warn them against evil, or to comfort them in sorrow? How can those who believe in man’s consciousness in death reject what comes to them as divine light communicated by glorified spirits?

They do talk to people on earth. Who would tell them they are not premitted to do so?

I never understood when people talk in language about conciousness. However, many people believe in both eternal consciousness and divine light (respectfully according to their faith). Why would they believe one thing and not the other? Unless you mean more specifically, they are rejecfing God?

Now that I know you're a unbeliever I will take my time. First and foremost a Christian foundation is Gods word only. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2timothy 3;16-17. To understand death, you must understand the creation of man. Genesis 2;7 states, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. When God formed man he had a heart, a lung, brain, and etc. But he could not get off the ground! Why? Bible says acts 17;28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. God is the source of life. That is what the creation of man teaches us. When we die the physical body is lifeless like Adam before God gave him life. The creation doesn't teach of spirit or ghost. Furthermore, the belief of the immortal soul or spirit is from Satan! It started at the garden of Eden Genesis 3;4 in that is the basis of modern spiritualism. The state of the dead is important to know! When you believe other than what the bible teaches then you open yourself to his deception. This is Satan tool as it work the ruin of Adam and Eve in the garden. That is why your seeing spirits the devils is manifesting himself to you because your not grounded in the word of God. Sorry for the next quote it is long but necessary. The doctrine of man’s consciousness in death, especially the belief that the spirits of the dead return to minister to the living, has prepared the way for modern Spiritualism. If the dead are admitted to the presence of God and holy angels, and privileged with knowledge far exceeding what they before possessed, why should they not return to the earth to enlighten and instruct the living? If, as taught by popular theologians, the spirits of the dead are hovering about their friends on earth, why should they not be permitted to communicate with them, to warn them against evil, or to comfort them in sorrow? How can those who believe in man’s consciousness in death reject what comes to them as divine light communicated by glorified spirits?Here is a channel regarded as sacred, through which Satan works for the accomplishment of his purposes. The fallen angels who do his bidding appear as messengers from the spirit world.While professing to bring the living into communication with the dead, the prince of evil exercises his bewitching influence upon their minds. GC88 551.2

He has power to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeit is perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness. Many are comforted with the assurance that their loved ones are enjoying the bliss of Heaven; and without suspicion of danger, they give ear to “seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” GC88 552.1

I hope this is helpful?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Our body and spirit are not meshed together. That would be a contradiction. Once our mortal body dies, our spirits continue to live. This is completely different than what I read from you.

Wouldnt it be safe to say that without Gods spirit in you, His breathe, you cannot live? So your spirit (which is separate) is of God?

If you believe in original sin (or think of the what I am asking even if you dont), wouldnt it be safe to say that your spirit is corrupted by adam and eves sin? So whatever your spirit does, if it is a sin, it taints the body? ( I heard it mentioned like this by a christian)

We are spirits is who we are our spirits and we are in the flesh. It reminds me of Jesusn resurrection where His spirit asended from His body back to God.

Luke 24:51
While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven

Was it His body that ascended?

The logical way I can see this is Jesus flesh as our sin. So, by His crucifixtion, He died in the flesh as christians would do to their sins. For example, being crucified with Christ so you no longer life to your self (your flesh, your sins) but instead live for Him with your spirit. Since He was burried after His crucifixtion, it would make sense that His spirit returns to the Father as the same way He decended. Why would, even though scripture says it does, His body be resurrected when that is a christians sins? Why would christians sins be resurrected?

The bible says differently. It says man is 'mortal'
That means we can die... and if thats the case then we most certainly are not spirits.

These are religious lies you are believing in.

Please do not call the lies. I respect the vows I took in Christ and would never tell anyone who believes in Him, they believe a lie. That is me. Not everyone is the same, unfortunatetly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since there is no eternal spirit, I would assume it does not come from demons because they (our spirits) do not exist. If I talked with my gransmother, Im talking to air. So, I dont see how that is against scripture. That is like punishing a boy for pretending his lego is a real man.

I also see a difference in contacting a spirit to raise the dead as well as trying to raise mortal flesh. It seems Saul (right?) tried to consult a spirit medium to raise the mortal flesh when God did not give Him the okay to do so as He did Christ. I dont know about spiritualist, ut those contacting their spirits are not trying to raise the dead. Its a confliction in what some people do today and what your descibing im scripture.

They don't match unless someone is masquerading as your family member's spirit.
Do you remember that God forbade contact with spirits under penalty of death? (Deut 189-12)
If those spirits were your lost loves ones, why would God forbid you to speak to them in death if you freely spoke to them in life? That makes no sense.

There is an example in the Bible when King Saul banished all the spirit mediums from the land but then lost his relationship with God through disobedience. When God stopped communicating with Saul, he lost his way spiritually and began to ask about any spirit mediums who might tell him how to contact Samuel, one of God's foremost prophets who had died. God had always advised his kings by means of his prophets, but none of them would speak to Saul. (1 Sam 28:8-19)

His request to find a spirit medium was unusual because God's people had no belief in an immortal part of man that departed from the body at death....the Canaanites however did have such beliefs. (Hence the land formerly had mediums who practiced spiritism, whom God had evicted.) In his desperation, Saul found a surviving spirit medium who supposedly conjured up the dead prophet, Samuel. Saul did not see or hear the spitrit who presented on that occasion, but the medium described him and spoke the words that the spirit said.

Why would a prophet who would not have spoken to Saul in life, now speak to him from the dead in this act of gross disobedience?

It is obvious that the spirit that spoke to Saul via the medium was a demon pretending to be Saul.

Those who have lost loved ones in death want to believe that they are not really gone. The demon spirits know that and they also know everything about everyone....they can tell things that only their family members would know. They can masquerade as those family members, especially when Christendom adopted the Greek belief of an immortal soul. The Bible simply does not teach it.



I do not know if there are other "Christians" who reject the notion is of an immortal soul.....it is a belief that permeates all religions....but it originated in Babylon, not the Bible. The ancient Jews only ever believed in bodily resurrection back to the earth under the rule of Messiah's Kingdom. All the resurrections performed by Jesus and his apostles were bodily resurrections.

Where were these ones before they were raised? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, he simply said he was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14)



We do not belive that Jesus was ever Almighty God. He was the divine son of God who was given a body of flesh to be born and reside on earth and give his life for mankind. He was a spirit being before he came to earth and he was raised as a spirit when he returned to heaven. When he was resurrected, he did not go back to heaven for 40 days, all the while "appearing" to his apostles and disciples in a body of flesh. Like other spirit beings, he could materialize fleshly bodies at will. Often the disciples did not recognise him. On one occasion he materialized a body with wounds to convince a doubting Thomas. When he ascended to heaven, a cloud covered him as he de-materialized and went back to heaven, (Acts 1:9-11) returning to the spirit realm where he was before.