State of the dead?

[james2ko]

What really happens at death? Provide bible texts please

The bible certainly teaches we "are" a soul (Eze 18:4; Act 2:27). But it also teaches we "have" a soul (Gen 35:18; Mat 10:28). In certain contexts, soul and spirit are synonymous. The religious dichotomy is whether a human's soul/spirit has consciousness apart from their body, which all biblical indications point to the notion it does not. At death, a person's unconscious soul/spirit leaves their body (Ecc 12:7) and is stored by God until their judgment or evaluation period.

 

[feneluscliff]

Yes. When I practiced Christianity, my view of God I found gradually was different than most christians who believe Jesus as God. I believe that God is life rather than created it. I also believe, because so, a part from "him" we cant exist. I believe because God is life that without God, we cannot breathe, a baby cant grow, and so forth. He (which is hard to put a gender on the spirit of life) is the source of pur living. So, I can talk about God of scripture to an extent that christians believe He created life and without Him no life. So, I see some comparison, but not 100 percent scripture.

To continue...

I looked up Spirirualism, and believers do make contact with spirits in the afterlife. I can see why now it is against scripture.

Wouldnt it be safe to say that the spirit you are now, while living, is the breathe/spirit of God? Without His spirit, or breathe in you until death, you wont be alive?

Thats the closest I ca relate to spirits in what I understood it to be.

I like how you said, to understand death you must understand the creation of man. What I read in scripture years ago, one verse in the gospels the others in revelation, but I cant find it to quote, is that spirits are eternal. So we walk the earth until judgement day and christians go immediately to God.

Have you ever considered that instead of my seeing spirits of the devil that I may not have seen spirits at all? Since you posted there is no immortal soul, how according to biblical logic, I can see spirits...instead of saying they are from the devil, we could make it positive and logical and say they could be the mind. Not every spiritual claim has a spiritual cause.

Something you asked:

They do talk to people on earth. Who would tell them they are not premitted to do so?

I never understood when people talk in language about conciousness. However, many people believe in both eternal consciousness and divine light (respectfully according to their faith). Why would they believe one thing and not the other? Unless you mean more specifically, they are rejecfing God?

"I like how you said, to understand death you must understand the creation of man. What I read in scripture years ago, one verse in the gospels the others in revelation, but I cant find it to quote, is that spirits are eternal. So we walk the earth until judgement day and christians go immediately to God."

The bible teaches differently,As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more. Job 7;9-10, So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job; 14;12-13, 13If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.14I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.15And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job17;12-16, 32Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb job21;32,
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest Ecclesiastes9;10. Those who die doesn't matter if they are Christian or not they all go one place the grave. Not heaven, not hell, or any other place but the grave! why? Because God is a fair and just God before he reward any one with life or death( which is the punishment for sin Roman6;23) he has to judge every one first! Which he is now doing according to the bible. You told me you saw spirit that's why I said that they are ( from the devil) if not sorry I said it. But truly you need to make the bible your foundation the time is fastly coming when Satan Will be working miracles to deceive those who has not been grounded in God's word. 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Thessalonians 2;9.

 

[feneluscliff]

The bible certainly teaches we "are" a soul (Eze 18:4; Act 2:27). But it also teaches we "have" a soul (Gen 35:18; Mat 10:28). In certain contexts, soul and spirit are synonymous. The religious dichotomy is whether a human's soul/spirit has consciousness apart from their body, which all biblical indications point to the notion it does not. At death, a person's unconscious soul/spirit leaves their body (Ecc 12:7) and is stored by God until their judgment or evaluation period.

A soul is a living person I had established this early on somewhere here, you would have to find it to see what I'm sayin. When a man dies he is of course unconscious of nothing. For the dead know not anything. But nothing leave our body at death. The spirit that leave us at death is simply the breath of life that God gave us, which made us living human beings. I believe that is clear enough.

 

[james2ko]

A soul is a living person I had established this early on somewhere here, you would have to find it to see what I'm sayin. When a man dies he is of course unconscious of nothing. For the dead know not anything. But nothing leave our body at death. The spirit that leave us at death is simply the breath of life that God gave us, which made us living human beings. I believe that is clear enough.

If nothing leaves our bodies after death, how do you explain Gen 35:18 and Ecc 12:7?

Gen 35:18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
​

This clearly indicates, especially Ecc 12:7, body and spirit/soul, have different destinations after death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please indent, color, or separate your comments from scripture. Some comments I cant tell if it is scripture or not.

Those verses seem to deal with the body. It repeats to say our body will die and not rise until God resurrects them or a similar result. It doesnt speak of spirits. Where does the spirit of God/God's breathe go when the body dies and know not? I would think that because God is the source of life that He would just make everyone disapear at death than create them again (as in revelation with new heavenly bodies).

Wouldnt it make more human common sense that we dont disapear and then reapear but a christians sins/flesh have died or decayed to live in spirit which is their new body resurrected by the Holy Spirit.

A lot of things do not make sense in scripture. However, at least I understand "why" it says and correlates to how you interpret it even if I misunderstand or disagree.

I like how you said, to understand death you must understand the creation of man. What I read in scripture years ago, one verse in the gospels the others in revelation, but I cant find it to quote, is that spirits are eternal. So we walk the earth until judgement day and christians go immediately to God."

The bible teaches differently,As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more. Job 7;9-10, So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job; 14;12-13, 13If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.14I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.15And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job17;12-16, 32Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb job21;32, Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest Ecclesiastes9;10.

Those who die doesn't matter if they are Christian or not they all go one place the grave. Not heaven, not hell, or any other place but the grave! why? Because God is a fair and just God before he reward any one with life or death( which is the punishment for sin Roman6;23) he has to judge every one first! Which he is now doing according to the bible.

You told me you saw spirit that's why I said that they are ( from the devil) if not sorry I said it. But truly you need to make the bible your foundation the time is fastly coming when Satan Will be working miracles to deceive those who has not been grounded in God's word. 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Thessalonians 2;9.​

 

[feneluscliff]

If nothing leaves our bodies after death, how do you explain Gen 35:18 and Ecc 12:7?

Gen 35:18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
​

This clearly indicates, especially Ecc 12:7, body and spirit/soul, have different destinations after death.

Genesis 35;18 is simply stated that she was dying and before she died she named the child.
As for ecc12;7 explain to me what you think the spirit is so I can address you properly. And what does this spirit do when returns to God?

 

[Clear]

Carlita

1) Differing Christian theories in differing Christian movements in differing periods of time
Keep in mind that all posted replies represent varying opinions and differing interpretations offered by different personalities. The various Christian movements and schisms have never been monolithic and thus, Christian theories evolved into many different worldviews that continue to evolve. For example, the early Judeo-Christians who describe a belief in spirits that are separate from the body and who remain cognizant and communicative after the body dies (as represented by examples in post # 14) would have viewed the modern theory of death of spirits (especially the death of Jesus’ spirit) as heretical, while some posters who espouse different modern theories where spirits die (as represented by feleluscliffs theory) may view early Christian beliefs and worldviews as heretical.

Because there are so many, many differing Christian theories and interpretations, the competing claims as to what constitutes Christian doctrine becomes very complicated. The early historical Christian textual witnesses, especially as one views early Christian descriptions of their early beliefs through the texts which they wrote and in which they describe their early beliefs and interpretations in their own words, are much more simple and consistent since many of the modern Christian theories did not yet exist.


2) Differing Biblical text anciently and in various modern bibles
This is further complicated by differences in the evolving “biblical” text. For example, the poster Feneluscliff quotes 2 Tim 3:16 as “All scripture is given by inspiration of God….”, yet there is no greek N.T. (the source text), which actually says this. Not one. That is, Feneluscliff is using a corrupted text that was never part of any biblical source text which he then quotes as “biblical“ and uses to develop his system of beliefs. Not only are such corruptions quoted as though they are “biblical” by Non historian Christians without awareness that such “biblical” texts are corruptions of the text, but frequently, non-historial Christians offer different interpretations of the text than interpretations offered by Christians of a different age who held to different beliefs (as exampled in post # 12).


3) The tendency to personalize the claim to have “knowledge”.
There is also a tendency for Christians (and other theists) to abuse the claim to “know” something is true and simply announce their personal theories and interpretations as “truth” without recognizing that other individuals with even better data and superior knowledge and reasoning have conflicting views. This personalization of having “truth” in the face of better data is not merely ignorance of better data (which I think affects us all), but is often due to characteristics of personality (which also affects us all).

At any rate, Carlita, your worldview that spirits do not die with the body is quite consistent with both early Christian worldviews and Christian doctrines (as per the examples in post # 14) though it is different than that of some of the posters who have adopted a differing Christian theory of a different age.


Clear
δρωισιω

 

[james2ko]

Genesis 35;18 is simply stated that she was dying and before she died she named the child.

The Hebrew text seems to reveal much more than Rachel simply dying. There are several Hebrew terms that could have been used to convey the fact Rachel was simply dying (H4191-muth, H4194-maveth, H5307-naphal). The term used in Gen 35:18 for Rachel's soul "departing" [ H3318-yatsa-בְּצֵאת] is defined by BDB as:

1a1) to go or come out or forth, depart
1a2) to go forth (to a place)
1a3) to go forward, proceed to (to or toward something)
1a4) to come or go forth (with purpose or for result)
1a5) to come out of​

The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible, which uniquely defines terms in their ancient context, equates the ancient use of the term "yatsa" to excrement coming "out of" a human body. The term is used to describe how Israel "went out" of [yatsa-בְּצֵאת] of Egypt (Ps 114:1). This leaves no doubt in my mind Rachel's soul/spirit departed her body and went back to God who gave it. Just as Ecc 12:7 indicates.

As for ecc12;7 explain to me what you think the spirit is so I can address you properly.

Similar to the essence of God's holy spirit, the spirit in man is a force placed by God within each human body (Job 32:8; 1 Co 2:11). It works interdependently with the physical brain to produce intellect, logic, self-consciousness, creativity, and other traits. This simple, albeit imperfect analogy may help in understanding my belief.

Think of the soul/spirit being a dvd and the body being a dvd player. Neither one can have cognition independently. Just as you need both dvd and player to view and experience the contents of the recording, you similarly need both body and soul/spirit to display the contents of our life's recording.

And what does this spirit do when returns to God?

The same thing a DVD does when you remove it from the player and put it back in the case---nothing. I believe the DVD (spirit/soul) departs from a human body and is stored in heaven (Ecc 3:21) to be reinserted and interact with the individual's new body, at their resurrection.

 

[Pegg]

Our body and spirit are not meshed together. That would be a contradiction. Once our mortal body dies, our spirits continue to live. This is completely different than what I read from you.

Is there any way to prove this claim?

You havnt died yet, so how do you know if you have an eternal spirit?

And where was Adam created? Wasn't it on earth from the dust? [/quote]

Wouldnt it be safe to say that without Gods spirit in you, His breathe, you cannot live? So your spirit (which is separate) is of God?

Eccl 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth,+ just as it was, and the spirit* returns to the true God who gave it​

Psalm 104:29
29 When you hide your face, they are disturbed.
If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.​

It is Gods spirit in us which makes us alive. Its certainly not something that belongs to us. And when God removes it, we die.

We are spirits is who we are our spirits and we are in the flesh. It reminds me of Jesusn resurrection where His spirit asended from His body back to God.

Luke 24:51
While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven

Was it His body that ascended?

You are confused. Jesus died and was in the tomb for 3 days. Afterward, God resurrected him. God brought him back to life as a spirit.
But for 3 days, Christ did not exist.... he was dead. And if Christ did exist, he would not have needed to be resurrected.

The logical way I can see this is Jesus flesh as our sin. So, by His crucifixtion, He died in the flesh as christians would do to their sins. For example, being crucified with Christ so you no longer life to your self (your flesh, your sins) but instead live for Him with your spirit. Since He was burried after His crucifixtion, it would make sense that His spirit returns to the Father as the same way He decended. Why would, even though scripture says it does, His body be resurrected when that is a christians sins? Why would christians sins be resurrected?


Please do not call the lies. I respect the vows I took in Christ and would never tell anyone who believes in Him, they believe a lie. That is me. Not everyone is the same, unfortunatetly.

Any teaching which contradicts the Bible is a lie. Thats the plain and hard truth. If you love Christ, you will love truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Id have to say no supernatural claim from God existing to our having spirits can be proven true or false. (Time period shouldnt matter) The Bible has many people make the same claims of talking to and interacting with the spirit of God. I witnessed seeing spirits. My parents has, aunt, and so have strangers associated with my grandparents for business matters. They werent demons nor were they friends. I never say that God doesnt exist just because I dont believe he does externally. Im asking you not to put down my beliefs. Without my spirit, I would not be alive.

not something that belongs to us. And when God removes it, we die.

Exactly. You need God's "spirit" to live. We, no matter our faith, arent lifeless no matter how we define the source of our being. The point that I am here and healthy is enough to know there is more than meets the eye.

But for 3 days, Christ did not exist.... he was dead. And if Christ did exist, he would not have needed to be resurrected

Christ couldnt have not been there. Maybe a decaying body? It was only a little more than 2,000 years ago. The laws of nature of our bodies birth, growth, death, and decay do not change with time period.

I am "assuming" based on your correction that God resurrected Chridt as Christ did the with someone else. Sorry, 12am here memory is messed up. I accept the correction. I think it odd to say Christ wasnt there when it only been three days. The body takes longer to decay.
--

Also, if you understand your world view is not others, life would hopefully be easier to accept differences. A lie in general, no. According to scripture, yes.