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Straw Man and God

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see that would be the via the Holy Spirit, which was the Christ, not the flesh of Jesus, Christ being the first, the last, the beginning, the end, the alpha and omega. That brings us to the narrow gate.

Perhaps we should examine that scripture a little more closely....?

Matthew 7:13-14...
"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."

So we have two 'gates' and two 'roads'....we choose to enter through either one of those gates of our own free will, which puts us on one of those two roads.

One gate is "broad" and it leads onto a "spacious" road that many obviously find attractive and easy to navigate....they also feel confident because they are in the company of "many" like-minded ones in their travels. They stay on this easy road until they all reach its only destination...."destruction".

The other gate is "narrow", leading onto a "cramped" road. This road has obstacles and is difficult to navigate, not knowing what is around any corner. Being forced to tread warily to avoid the pitfalls.....but those who find this gate and travel this road will gain "life" as opposed to "destruction" for the others. Why would anyone knowingly choose the wrong road? So perhaps it isn't "knowingly"....:shrug: How easy are people convinced about something they "want" to believe?

It is true that God is the only one who can show us the way to this narrow gate....in fact John 6:44 and 65 tells us that no one will come to the son, without an invitation from the Father. No one will even think of changing roads unless God's spirit motivates them to do so. He does not motivate everyone...only the genuine seekers.

So many many people invoke One God by this Holy Spirit, even if they call it by a different name and some see that One God in many of God's Names, much like picking colours of the rainbow, or various aspects of the Holy Spirit.

The God of the Bible has only one name......

Exodus 3:14-15....
"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:


14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
(Tanach)

"The Lord God" here is יְהֹוָ֞ה (Yahweh...Jehovah) that was his name "forever" and how he was to be "mentioned in every generation". The Jews failed to uphold God's name however, and all mention of it was eventually lost.
But there is no other name for God ever given, which to me suggests that all the names of other gods are not his.

There are a few other things that allow me to state with certainty that Jehovah does not tolerate the worship of any other gods but himself. This was part of the 10 Commandments. (Exodus 20:2-3) He always had his prophets point out this very important message.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11....
“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or your cherished wife or your closest companion should try to entice you in secrecy, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ gods that neither you nor your forefathers have known, 7 from the gods of the peoples all around you, whether near you or those far away from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land, 8 you must not give in to him or listen to him, nor should you show pity or feel compassion or protect him;. . . .And you must stone him to death, because he has sought to turn you away from Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

There is no way to combine the worship of false gods with the worship of Jehovah. It was a capital offense to introduce the worship of false gods. God acted to punish the offenders.

Even in Christianity, there was to be no fusing of false worship with true worship....

2 Corinthians 6:14-18....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 ‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

If God is to be "among" his "sons and daughters" they will have nothing to do with "unclean" (false) worship. You cannot have "righteousness and lawlessness" together as if they can somehow agree....you cannot share light with darkness...or truth with lies...or God's temple with idols. But first you have to know the difference.

If you remember the 10 plagues in Egypt, each one was a humiliation of one of Egypt's gods. Rather than embrace these false gods, Jehovah showed them up as powerless.

Israel too when they fell away to the worship of other gods, was shown in no uncertain terms how Jehovah felt about their defection. He describes himself as a "jealous" God who will not tolerate the worship of any other god.
His punishments were severe.

Another point is that Jesus Christ was never to manifest himself in the flesh again. His "coming" as the conquering spirit King with an army of angels, is to crush all opposers of his Father's incoming Kingdom, out of existence. (Daniel 2:44)

Matthew 25:31-46....
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. . . .“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."


So you see that there are two clear cut designations of humans here, and all will fall into either one category or the other. We will have already proven by our own actions and the direction of our own worship, which category we are in.

Baha'i teachings contradict the Bible in so many ways, but we all have choices about what to believe. The truth shines like a beacon to those whom God grants to reveal his truth through his one and only Messiah.

You can't make God into something he is not. :( That is how I see it....
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Perhaps we should examine that scripture a little more closely....?

Matthew 7:13-14...
"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."

So we have two 'gates' and two 'roads'....we choose to enter through either one of those gates of our own free will, which puts us on one of those two roads.

One gate is "broad" and it leads onto a "spacious" road that many obviously find attractive and easy to navigate....they also feel confident because they are in the company of "many" like-minded ones in their travels. They stay on this easy road until they all reach its only destination...."destruction".

The other gate is "narrow", leading onto a "cramped" road. This road has obstacles and is difficult to navigate, not knowing what is around any corner. Being forced to tread warily to avoid the pitfalls.....but those who find this gate and travel this road will gain "life" as opposed to "destruction" for the others. Why would anyone knowingly choose the wrong road? So perhaps it isn't "knowingly"....:shrug: How easy are people convinced about something they "want" to believe?

It is true that God is the only one who can show us the way to this narrow gate....in fact John 6:44 and 65 tells us that no one will come to the son, without an invitation from the Father. No one will even think of changing roads unless God's spirit motivates them to do so. He does not motivate everyone...only the genuine seekers.



The God of the Bible has only one name......

Exodus 3:14-15....
"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:


14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
(Tanach)

"The Lord God" here is יְהֹוָ֞ה (Yahweh...Jehovah) that was his name "forever" and how he was to be "mentioned in every generation". The Jews failed to uphold God's name however, and all mention of it was eventually lost.
But there is no other name for God ever given, which to me suggests that all the names of other gods are not his.

There are a few other things that allow me to state with certainty that Jehovah does not tolerate the worship of any other gods but himself. This was part of the 10 Commandments. (Exodus 20:2-3) He always had his prophets point out this very important message.

Deuteronomy 13:
“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or your cherished wife or your closest companion should try to entice you in secrecy, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ gods that neither you nor your forefathers have known, 7 from the gods of the peoples all around you, whether near you or those far away from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land, 8 you must not give in to him or listen to him, nor should you show pity or feel compassion or protect him;. . . .And you must stone him to death, because he has sought to turn you away from Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

There is no way to combine the worship of false gods with the worship of Jehovah. It was a capital offense to introduce the worship of false gods. God acted to punish the offenders.

Even in Christianity, there was to be no fusing of false worship with true worship....

2 Corinthians 6:14-18....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 ‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

If God is to be "among" his "sons and daughters" they will have nothing to do with "unclean" (false) worship. You cannot have "righteousness and lawlessness" together as if they can somehow agree....you cannot share light with darkness...or truth with lies...or God's temple with idols. But first you have to know the difference.

If you remember the 10 plagues in Egypt, each one was a humiliation of one of Egypt's gods. Rather than embrace these false gods, Jehovah showed them up as powerless.

Israel too when they fell away to the worship of other gods, was shown in no uncertain terms how Jehovah felt about their defection. He describes himself as a "jealous" God who will not tolerate the worship of any other god.
His punishments were severe.

Another point is that Jesus Christ was never to manifest himself in the flesh again. His "coming" as the conquering spirit King with an army of angels, is to crush all opposers of his Father's incoming Kingdom, out of existence. (Daniel 2:44)

Matthew 25:31-46....
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. . . .“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."


So you see that there are two clear cut designations of humans here, and all will fall into either one category or the other. We will have already proven by our own actions and the direction of our own worship, which category we are in.

Baha'i teachings contradict the Bible in so many ways, but we all have choices about what to believe. The truth shines like a beacon to those whom God grants to reveal his truth through his one and only Messiah.

You can't make God into something he is not. :( That is how I see it....

You posted lots. :)

Regards Tony
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
So someone sets up a Straw Man of the force or forces which they think started the universe, in their mind. A deity.

For this example, yes, we'll assume the person believes that a deity or deities set the universe into motion.

Okay, so this person may picture God as a human when they visualize Him, when who knows, God could be an energy or not even look human. The person visualizing may even get a few other things wrong about Him.

Now, this person visualizes who their God is, with the intent to praise what amounts to the original, the creator or creators.

Does this God hear their prayers? Even if many people are somehow getting His true nature wrong?

Actually, the notion of a strawman is to set up a dummy made of straw that one can easily "knock over." So they purposely make this concept look ridiculous.

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for someone to tell me how any universe can exist without organized forces of any sort to put it in place, and assuming you cite a bunch of physics laws as proof, how that can all work without a universe to work inside of. The universe necessarily would have to be created in a parallel universe outside the first, barring a being that can act outside the current laws of the universe or rewrite them. I'm afraid I don't have to turn that into a straw man. It is already easy to knock over.

No, if this God is the first unmoved mover and nothing else. If there is a God, it doesn't mean that this God cares for humans.

It doesn't mean that it doesn't either, though. Consider any lucky break you got. Whether a job, and apartment, or a significant other. Ask yourself what chain of events had to happen to make it come true. For me, my mom's father got stuck in Williamsburg because of their stupid traffic lights, and he couldn't pay, so he had to work it off. My dad went to college down south to get away from parts and their expectations of him being a lawyer or accountant. Then they had two children, and after four years that was probably the last. Only, they went to a nice restaurant and had a really nice meal and... nine months later... So yeah, even though I have a love/hate relationship with God, I wouldn't be here if not for a ****ing good bowl of chowder. I know God cares for humans, though I am not convinced that God is not like Coyote.

Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell

Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell

Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell

Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell

Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell

The correct question is: Why do we assume that is possible to know the ontological status of the origin of the universe or if there was one at all? If we are skeptical, as your question is, then why not start with the core epistemological question of can we know the ontological status of the universe itself?

Philosophy was a wonderful course, which I'm glad I took. We learned about a theory called the evil genius/demon. Well, I did, I kinda eavesdropped on another philosophy course waiting for another class. Basically, it goes like this. There's this Trickster (say Coyote above) who makes reality and all that is in it. But this Trickster, you see, wants to deceive you, so he makes an illusory world. What must be true, in order for one to perceive a universe (real or not)?

1. The Trickster (reality/illusion must be sent, so someone must send it)
2. You (reality/illusion must be received, so someone must be there to receive it)
3. Reality/Illusion (there has to be something there, even if only in your mind)

Ohhhh, it gets better. You see, you and the Trickster might in fact be the same person split into parts by said illusion. And because you created this thing, real or not, it is technically part of you. Regardless of all of this, even if you are the same person, even if the thing created is not real, the illusion created still must be real to satisfy the conditions! And it still gets better! All of these philosophical constructs don't just work in a vacuum, they satisfy the world we live it right now.

We can be sure the universe exists. We just can't be sure whether it's an illusion or not!
 

Workman

UNIQUE
My friends and family!..I wish you all well
"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."

I want to share an understanding of this scripture..so that all may know of what it speaks.


"Go in through the narrow gate,

-It speaks by The knowledge that one has eaten.


because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction,

-for than now(with knowledge)..ones found their cause, than saw its size, and than as well of the space by them to CLAIM(selfishness): which will lead in all of you for destruction(all will be fighting for the same cause).


and many are going in through it; 14

-and the many fell for it, and as they fall..this is how one will end up as...

whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life,

-In whom for your being(pride in knowledge) will never be enough for your Glory, and therefore ones Pride & Glory will be the ONLY things they KNOW and chase, for the chase..will be the rest of their life(chasing)..for nothing else they knew of life(for that now they KNOW NOT of the after life).

and few are finding it."

-That YOU shall now ‘NOT KNOW IT’.

God bless
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yep...lots of scripture......all relevant....:D

I could address each part, but 35 years a friend with a JW, I know it would be just a long post in reply. :)

The day of Jehovah is brought by the 'Glory of God', the Father that Christ promised would guide us unto all Truth.

That really answers the whole post. That was easy and I take up little of your time.

Stay happy deeje, I hope you are well, Regards Tony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I could address each part, but 35 years a friend with a JW, I know it would be just a long post in reply.

I am glad that you have a JW friend.....he's not getting through though...is he? :p Say g'day to him for me. :)

The day of Jehovah is brought by the 'Glory of God', the Father that Christ promised would guide us unto all Truth.

It was actually Jesus who promised that the holy spirit would guide his disciples into all truth.......the "paraklētos" is not a man.
According to Strongs.....paraklētos is.....
  1. in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
    1. of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
That really answers the whole post.

It doesn't really if you believe that the paraklētos is the holy spirit.

John 14:25-26...
"I have spoken these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you."

"The spirit of the Truth" cannot be Christ returned because Christ's return will see the establishment of the Kingdom and the conditions revealed in Revelation 21:2-4.....have we seen these.....?

Oh well, to each his own.....:shrug:

Stay happy deeje, I hope you are well

Thanks.....and to you....

There are bushfires all around us at the present but trying not to dwell on the potential emergency. Dreading summer. Are you experiencing any fire threats?

We are praying for rain.....clouds are gathering to give us hope, and to help the fire fighters. Bless them all....:(
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The spirit of the Truth" cannot be Christ returned because Christ's return will see the establishment of the Kingdom and the conditions revealed in Revelation 21:2-4.....have we seen these.....?

Oh well, to each his own.....:shrug:

Yes indeed we have seen that established and yes it is each to our own.

Let's hope that rain does come, Australia is to face hard times to come.

All the best Deeje

Regards Tony
 
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