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String theory and alternate dimension

gnostic

The Lost One
It has been a while since I have read anything about String Theory in science journals (3-4 years ago), so I don't know its current status of String Theory in science.

According to what I remember about String Theory it is where various scientists giving different competing hypotheses on String Theory, in the hope to unified 2 current and accepted theories of today - General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

One of the hypotheses is that it is possible to have at least 11 dimensions (M-Theory), which allow for multiverse or alternate dimension (or reality).

The last time I had looked at this String Theory, the M-Theory is still untested hypothesis. There are competing mathematical proofs, but not testable and no evidences beyond the mathematics.

Has the String Theory made any headway since then?

Do scientists still believe it is possible to have dimensions greater than current dimensions (alternate dimension)?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Lubo

The blog of "the last happy string theorist." He's still flapping his gums, so string theory must be alive and kicking. :D
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Perhaps I should rephrase it.

To me, the M-Theory is still untested (as far as I can tell), so I still see it as hypothesis instead of active or working theory.

Is this still so?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Posted the link to Lubo because there was some flap in January as to decoding recent LHC data. Some science writers were going on about "string theory being dead" because micro black holes were not produced at the energies the LHC was running at, but Lubo told 'em to shut their collective hole and do the math... I like Lubo. :D

It is active as far as my research goes, which ain't much, and I ain't a professional. :D
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So the String Theory, particularly it's subset - M-Theory - is still pretty much theoretical, hence a hypothesis that still haven't been proven with evidences?
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
It has been a while since I have read anything about String Theory in science journals (3-4 years ago), so I don't know its current status of String Theory in science.

According to what I remember about String Theory it is where various scientists giving different competing hypotheses on String Theory, in the hope to unified 2 current and accepted theories of today - General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

One of the hypotheses is that it is possible to have at least 11 dimensions (M-Theory), which allow for multiverse or alternate dimension (or reality).

The last time I had looked at this String Theory, the M-Theory is still untested hypothesis. There are competing mathematical proofs, but not testable and no evidences beyond the mathematics.

Has the String Theory made any headway since then?

Do scientists still believe it is possible to have dimensions greater than current dimensions (alternate dimension)?

String hypothesis would probably be a better name for it since it isn't a theory in the rigorous sense. As far as I know it has yet to make a testable prediction. Basically it arose as an attempt to understand fundamental particles and their properties. People want to understand why electrons have the mass and charge that they do or why muons are unstable...things like that. The word dimension seems to have a different meaning in popular culture than it does in string theory. Some people confuse the ideas of parallel universes/alternate realities and dimension. A dimension in string theory is a numeric degree of freedom needed to describe the location of something in our universe. A parallel universe/alternate reality is an entire universe that is separate from our own where events play out differently.
 

Frank Merton

Active Member
String hypothesis would probably be a better name for it since it isn't a theory in the rigorous sense. As far as I know it has yet to make a testable prediction.
Think about that a minute; why would someone spend any time, let alone careers, if that were true. String theory predicts much of the universe as we see it, including the particles and forces with their relative masses and strengths. It is also economic in the fudge factors it needs to work, and, I am told, is mathematically elegant.

The problem is that there are other theories that do the same things.

I don't know that conclusive tests will ever be possible; some of the tests needed would require things like particle accelerators the size of the galaxy. Absent some ingenious idea that sidesteps these needs, or maybe a bit of luck that reality turns out to be one of the more easily tested flavors of the theory, conclusive demonstration could be effectively impossible.

Should that surprise us? It seems to me inevitable that sooner or later we will reach the point where our theory exceeds our ability to test.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Should that surprise us? It seems to me inevitable that sooner or later we will reach the point where our theory exceeds our ability to test.

Like god. ;)

And there were shades of some SUSY in this year's LHC reads; where there's one, there's the other, according to Lubo.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
It has been a while since I have read anything about String Theory in science journals (3-4 years ago), so I don't know its current status of String Theory in science.

According to what I remember about String Theory it is where various scientists giving different competing hypotheses on String Theory, in the hope to unified 2 current and accepted theories of today - General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

One of the hypotheses is that it is possible to have at least 11 dimensions (M-Theory), which allow for multiverse or alternate dimension (or reality).

This depends on what's meant by "multiverse" and "alternate dimension." Multiverses are a separate idea from string theory; as are ideas about different physics throughout the megaverse. (Megaverse is an often misunderstood term that just means the rest of the universe outside of the visible universe. For instance, Leonard Susskind is a proponent of the Higgs field fluctuating throughout the megaverse even if the entire visible universe has roughly the same Higgs field values -- such that if you were to magically teleport 200 billion light years away you might end up in a place with different values and thus different physics).

In Susskind's "cosmic landscape" where physics changes throughout the megaverse it's not a different dimension; it's just what might happen if you went far enough out of the visible universe. Sort of like if you had a magnetic field with wildly different values on a plane but you were stuck only looking at a square centimeter of the plane, you might assume the magnetic field has only the values in that tiny square that you can see. In any case that's off topic and I'm just pointing out that variable physics megaverse ideas aren't necessarily inherent in string theory and don't necessarily incorporate multiverses.

Likewise, having 11 dimensions doesn't necessarily mean multiverses; but only by semantics. If a flatlander on a piece of paper on Earth were to glance somehow at the third spatial dimension we use, is that a multiverse? Usually we don't think of it that way; but it's not so easy to tell them apart: for instance, what if the flatlander discovers that there's another plane of flatland bisecting their plane? (Such that Flatland 2 is orthogonal or some other relation using the 3rd dimension to Flatland 1)?

That fulfills the definition of a "parallel dimension," since the word "parallel" is used very loosely in such cases -- but we 3rd dimension folk wouldn't call it a multiverse, we'd just say that the flatlanders have discovered the third dimension.

Well, that's exactly what a "multiverse" would be for us, though: another universe existing but separated from the one we know by some distance or relation over another spatial dimension that we're not familiar with. Is that a "multiverse" or is it just us discovering another dimension?

The terms are vague and sort of interchangeable. I just know that when I hear the word "multiverse" or "parallel dimension" that I imagine something more magical than scientific, but that's my own problem. I just like to think of it in terms of dimensions, plain and simple.

gnostic said:
The last time I had looked at this String Theory, the M-Theory is still untested hypothesis. There are competing mathematical proofs, but not testable and no evidences beyond the mathematics.

Has the String Theory made any headway since then?

Do scientists still believe it is possible to have dimensions greater than current dimensions (alternate dimension)?

String theory is in trouble and has been for a while. First it could only work for a negative or zero lambda universe and we discovered that ours is positive (i.e., universe is expanding and accelerating as it does so). This was entirely incompatible with string theory as it was formulated. Normally this is what we would call a falsification, but sort of like how Ptolemaic astronomers kept adding concentric orbits ad hoc, that's what physicists have done with string theory today.

The only way to get string theory to work with a positive lambda universe was to use these crazy high dimensional spaces called calibai-yau manifolds -- the only reason they're given any thought at all outside of pure mathematics is because they so happen to save string theory (and I'd call that a bit ad hoc if there isn't any other reason to bring them in, is my bias showing through?)

The problem with that besides its dubious ad hoc nature is that there are something like 10^500 such possible manifolds, meaning that there are now around 10^500 possible string theories and very little* means to tell which one, if any, describes the actual physical universe that we observe.

(* -- by "very little" I mean there are no known means but I'm padding myself a little in case some means is discovered)

On top of that, we derive answers from string theory perturbatively (with perturbation theory, which is a recursive approximation schema to put it gently)... which means the "answers" come out as infinite strings of terms.

I'm sure we've all heard or read that string theory is supposed to get rid of the infinities we encounter when we probe certain things with current physics... it's claimed to be "proven finite." Well, what they mean by that is that of the infinite perturbative terms we get from very manufactured questions (which idealize everything to an extreme -- sort of like if you were trying to figure out the mathematics behind a cow by assuming it's a perfect sphere) we have proven the first three terms to be finite.

Yep -- 3 terms out of an infinity of terms proven finite. That doesn't sound "proven finite" to me. Oh, and by 3 terms proven finite I mean that the first term is proven finite and the 2nd and 3rd terms are proven finite under "most normal conditions." (They can in fact blow up to infinity under a certain group of circumstances which are supposed to be possible within string theory, so why they say it's proven finite, I don't know...)

I could go on, but I'll finish by saying lastly that string theory as it stands is background dependent. That takes some time to explain and I'm tired, so let's just say that it ignores Einstein's relativity revolution by assuming a fixed spacetime. M-theory is supposed to be background independent (which is good) but I honestly haven't seen any attempts at putting it in such terms that aren't grotesquely contrived, but I admittedly don't grasp all the mathematics since I haven't even finished grad school yet. I know enough to know it looks unnecessarily ugly and inelegant though.

------
Edit: Oh, and to answer your last question, even with the shortcomings of string theory -- that is entirely separate from the question of whether hyperspace (i.e. other spatial dimensions, or even temporal dimensions) exists. It is still entirely possible that there are extra spatial and/or temporal dimensions even if string theory fails. There are some indications that it may even be likely, but it's ultimately hypothetical at this point. There are precious few indirect evidences for higher spatial dimensions -- but they are weak evidences and in many cases have alternative explanations. There will come a time, perhaps with the LHC, where we will have access to the raw amounts of energy to test models with dimensions other than the three spatial and one temporal that we're familiar with.
 
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Sum1sGruj

Active Member
The last time I checked, these versions of string theory were unified. String theory is at a standstill because there doesn't seem to be a way to test it. It's also quite unfalsifiable by most other theories, which essentially makes it invulnerable to opposing physicists.
The thing with string theory is that of has to be completely right or completely wrong. There's not much room in between. It suggests that the smallest particles of matter, perhaps quarks, are actually 1-dimensional strings or loops, and that all forms of matter, energy, and even dimensions are made of the same material.
According to String theory, there are many dimensions other than the 3 spatial dimensions and 1 of time we live in. This does not mean that there aren't practically infinite universes, just that reality sits on an infinite fluctuation/mix of these dimensions.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The last time I checked, these versions of string theory were unified. String theory is at a standstill because there doesn't seem to be a way to test it. It's also quite unfalsifiable by most other theories, which essentially makes it invulnerable to opposing physicists.
The thing with string theory is that of has to be completely right or completely wrong. There's not much room in between. It suggests that the smallest particles of matter, perhaps quarks, are actually 1-dimensional strings or loops, and that all forms of matter, energy, and even dimensions are made of the same material.
According to String theory, there are many dimensions other than the 3 spatial dimensions and 1 of time we live in. This does not mean that there aren't practically infinite universes, just that reality sits on an infinite fluctuation/mix of these dimensions.

The highlighted portion isn't necessarily true. There are some indications (i.e. weak maldacena conjecture, some others) that we may be ultimately gazing at a foundational duality: is the fundamental "unit" of the universe strings and fields are emergent (string theory, M-theory, brane theory, etc.) or is the fundamental "unit" of the universe fields and strings are emergent (loop quantum gravity, spin network physics, QG observations from black hole thermodynamics, etc.)?

The answer just might be "both are valid answers so long as you're consistent with which one you choose."
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
The highlighted portion isn't necessarily true. There are some indications (i.e. weak maldacena conjecture, some others) that we may be ultimately gazing at a foundational duality: is the fundamental "unit" of the universe strings and fields are emergent (string theory, M-theory, brane theory, etc.) or is the fundamental "unit" of the universe fields and strings are emergent (loop quantum gravity, spin network physics, QG observations from black hole thermodynamics, etc.)?

The answer just might be "both are valid answers so long as you're consistent with which one you choose."
Isn't this the same (form of) question as whether warped spacetime causes gravity, or gravity warps spacetime?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Is his book good? It sounds decent.

I was referring to the epononymous concept, but I happen to have read the book as well. It's a decent read and expounds on a few megaverse possibilities, but it's in the vein of multiverse literature in that it's only so much unestablished possibility more than hard science. Also I'm somewhat biased against Susskind, so maybe the fact that I liked it anyway is a good sign.
 
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