Struggling with western Buddhism

[Osal]

I think, and this is just me, that social engagement is a matter of individual choice. If you want to engage, do so. However to expect others to do the same seems a bit naive and perhaps unfairly judgemental. I pefer to do what I can or must and leave others to their own karma.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What negatives? What are you referring to here?

Oh....by which causes the struggle.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

I think, and this is just me, that social engagement is a matter of individual choice. If you want to engage, do so. However to expect others to do the same seems a bit naive and perhaps unfairly judgemental. I pefer to do what I can or must and leave others to their own karma.

I'm not expecting everyone to do it with it. I do, however, expect a sangha to at least have an OPTION for it. I have searched through the multiple Buddhist sanghas in Houston and not found a single one saying they do this type of work for their community. All of their other activities are in relation to creating revenue for the sangha. There are no options for people who would like the sangha to help people. At my old church, they have a truck from the Food Bank come over and hand out food to the poor once a month. They have activities where they give their old clothes and items to people regularly. I participate in those frequently. When I was a teenager, I helped paint and build a church doing the same type of outreach. We would clean neighborhoods of filth and decay. These activities were optional, but they are THERE. No one forces ANYONE to go to these, but they still exist. For a religion with an emphasis on compassion towards all beings, to not even have an OPTION for this in many sangha's is absolutely shocking. What I'm expecting isn't naive AT ALL. Nothing I've said is judgmental because this is one of the core things about Buddhism: taking care of your community. In the end, it really just feels like they take care of either themselves or other Buddhists. I know some of them volunteer first hand; however wouldn't multiple people in the Sangha volunteering be a better way to represent and get the word out about your Zen Center than having another Introduction to Buddhism $75 dollar class? I know all buildings need revenue to support themselves and the nun/monks, so I don't judge them at all for having activities that force payment, but I also feel religion must participate in the community as well. I do not find this to be an unreasonable expectation, especially in light of Thich Nhat Han's own protesting back in the 60's or Dalai Lama's wonderful bounty of community outreach.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

I just read this posting elsewhere and it has made me decide that Zen is not for me. I forgot about Zen's origins in this situation.

"Therevada Buddhism is the oldest lineage from the Buddha. The teachings were memorized during his lifetime and immediately after his passing away they recited them for retention purposes. To this day we have the Pali Canon that originally contained 87,000 teachings. For 500 years these teachings were passed down orally until writing was discovered. Therevada Buddhism typically migrated South in Asia throughout states like Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, etc.

Zen Buddhism started from the flower sermon. The Buddha held up a flower and didn't say anything. Everyone was confused but one monk, who got what the Buddha was getting at. It couldn't be expressed in words. This was the birth of Zen. Less emphasis on scriptures, more emphasis on direct experience. Of course the problem with this is, as r/zen will illustrate, is that these practitioners often go against the sage advice or teachings of a Buddha because they simply don't know/bother with scriptures.

Also the word 'zen' comes from the word 'jhana' which means meditative absorption."

Somebody tell me what's substantial by which Buddhism and Buddhists in the west whom practice meditation, is determined as being insufficient for realisation.

I understand preservation of sutras and writings, and a discipline concerning the four noble truths and eightfold path, yet honestly it's not going to make you anymore in tune with eastern Buddhism. Whatever that is supposed to be through which western practices fall short.

There is no incomplete practice simply due to one who centers on Zazen and nothing else.

The struggling western Buddha. I like it.

I think we all have our own path, and I honestly do not wish to seek awakening in this life. I'm fine being a laywoman. However, I would like to ease into it and familiar myself with the Dharma and a wonderful sangha base. I do want a teacher as well. In fact, I think it's imperative for me. I think I'm just realizing that Zen - the biggest type of western Buddhism - just isn't for me. Of course, I could be wrong.

Do you see secularism as somehow at odds with Buddhist practice? May I ask you to elaborate on how and why, if so?

In the post you quoted I had a typo. I meant it's NOT inherently bad.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I just read this posting elsewhere and it has made me decide that Zen is not for me. I forgot about Zen's origins in this situation.

"Therevada Buddhism is the oldest lineage from the Buddha. The teachings were memorized during his lifetime and immediately after his passing away they recited them for retention purposes. To this day we have the Pali Canon that originally contained 87,000 teachings. For 500 years these teachings were passed down orally until writing was discovered. Therevada Buddhism typically migrated South in Asia throughout states like Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, etc.

Zen Buddhism started from the flower sermon. The Buddha held up a flower and didn't say anything. Everyone was confused but one monk, who got what the Buddha was getting at. It couldn't be expressed in words. This was the birth of Zen. Less emphasis on scriptures, more emphasis on direct experience. Of course the problem with this is, as r/zen will illustrate, is that these practitioners often go against the sage advice or teachings of a Buddha because they simply don't know/bother with scriptures.

Also the word 'zen' comes from the word 'jhana' which means meditative absorption."

Of course, Theravadins say that Theravada is older, purer, more authentic, etc., but it's not actually any more of those things than the Chan tradition is, nor is the Chan tradition (despite the flower sermon origin myth) any less orthodox when it comes to scriptural grounding etc. The phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" doesn't mean what people think it means; the Chan school has what might be the largest scriptural canon of any religious tradition (basically anything that was ever canonized at any time in Chinese Buddhism), and the actual masters and their authorized Dharma teachers know it well. It's not Biblicist in its treatment of scriptures in the way that Protestant Christianity is, but the idea that the Chan tradition doesn't bother with scriptures is patently and demonstrably false. In fact there are a number of scriptures unique to the tradition.

What's really going on here is that a lot of Westerners received Japanese Zen, which is a descendant of the Chan school, in a particular set of circumstances back in the mid-20th century that led to a grossly inaccurate understanding of what the tradition is all about. For example, people sold it as a counterculture challenge to the orthodoxy, when in the Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese tradition Chan is the orthodoxy. If you want the real thing, I'd suggest seeking out a Chinese Chan group such as Dharma Drum or else the lineage of Thich Nhat Hanh, which is the Vietnamese branch of Chan. Both of those are socially engaged, active in charity work, and promote a holistic approach to Buddhadharma, rather than trying to rip one aspect of it out of its context in the name of helping Western intellectuals feel superior. I'm sure there are genuine Japanese lineages too, but the "pop Zen" stuff is entirely Japanese in origin, so by avoiding them you pretty much avoid the problem entirely. And the fact is that Japanese Buddhism has some internal problems of its own and has had for a very long time--suffice it to say they didn't come out of the Meiji-era state persecution unscathed, and they still haven't really recovered.

For what it's worth, I completely understand your frustration with your aforementioned Zen group, which seems like a good example of everything that's wrong with Western dilettante Buddhism. The real thing is a completely different world. Also be aware that you get the exact same problem with Theravada groups in the US, many of which attract the same kinds of people, who are keen to turn Buddhism into a secular philosophy plus meditation, without the ethics or social engagement. And there are people who dabble in the Tibetan tradition that get lost in the esotericism and never extract their heads from their backsides or get around to manifesting all that legendary compassion they go on about. The key is to find a group that's down-to-earth and practice-focused, whatever the school--and that they realize that ethics and interpersonal relations are practice. In fact, the ability to live in this world and make it better for others is the entire point.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Of course, Theravadins say that Theravada is older, purer, more authentic, etc., but it's not actually any more of those things than the Chan tradition is, nor is the Chan tradition (despite the flower sermon origin myth) any less orthodox when it comes to scriptural grounding etc. The phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" doesn't mean what people think it means; the Chan school has what might be the largest scriptural canon of any religious tradition (basically anything that was ever canonized at any time in Chinese Buddhism), and the actual masters and their authorized Dharma teachers know it well. It's not Biblicist in its treatment of scriptures in the way that Protestant Christianity is, but the idea that the Chan tradition doesn't bother with scriptures is patently and demonstrably false. In fact there are a number of scriptures unique to the tradition.

What's really going on here is that a lot of Westerners received Japanese Zen, which is a descendant of the Chan school, in a particular set of circumstances back in the mid-20th century that led to a grossly inaccurate understanding of what the tradition is all about. For example, people sold it as a counterculture challenge to the orthodoxy, when in the Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese tradition Chan is the orthodoxy. If you want the real thing, I'd suggest seeking out a Chinese Chan group such as Dharma Drum or else the lineage of Thich Nhat Hanh, which is the Vietnamese branch of Chan. Both of those are socially engaged, active in charity work, and promote a holistic approach to Buddhadharma, rather than trying to rip one aspect of it out of its context in the name of helping Western intellectuals feel superior. I'm sure there are genuine Japanese lineages too, but the "pop Zen" stuff is entirely Japanese in origin, so by avoiding them you pretty much avoid the problem entirely. And the fact is that Japanese Buddhism has some internal problems of its own and has had for a very long time--suffice it to say they didn't come out of the Meiji-era state persecution unscathed, and they still haven't really recovered.

For what it's worth, I completely understand your frustration with your aforementioned Zen group, which seems like a good example of everything that's wrong with Western dilettante Buddhism. The real thing is a completely different world. Also be aware that you get the exact same problem with Theravada groups in the US, many of which attract the same kinds of people, who are keen to turn Buddhism into a secular philosophy plus meditation, without the ethics or social engagement. And there are people who dabble in the Tibetan tradition that get lost in the esotericism and never extract their heads from their backsides or get around to manifesting all that legendary compassion they go on about. The key is to find a group that's down-to-earth and practice-focused, whatever the school--and that they realize that ethics and interpersonal relations are practice. In fact, the ability to live in this world and make it better for others is the entire point.

I agree with everything you said. For reference, I am talking about Soto Zen and I was ignorant to not acknowledge the difference. My mistake, friend.

I will check hose alternatives before checking out Theravada.

 

[Osal]

I'm not expecting everyone to do it with it. I do, however, expect a sangha to at least have an OPTION for it.

Sounds kinda judgemental to me.

But I can certainly understand how frustrating it can be when our pre-concieved expectations aren't met. Sux.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I agree with everything you said. For reference, I am talking about Soto Zen and I was ignorant to not acknowledge the difference. My mistake, friend.

I will check hose alternatives before checking out Theravada.

Feel free to practice with whatever school you feel works with you, Theravada included. Just be wary of fundamentalist attitudes and unsubstantiated claims to be the "pure" tradition straight from the Buddha's mouth. It's a living tradition whose scriptures aren't actually any older or more authentic than anybody else's. If people go with Theravada, it should be because they find a good group to practice with and the practice works for them, not because of notions of purity or authenticity.

There are Theravada lineages that are highly respected by Mahayana/Chan practitioners and vice versa. Ajahn Chah of the Thai Forest tradition, for example, taught things that were pretty much identical to what a Chan teacher would say, including about the role of the scriptures and the method and purpose of meditation. Our Chan teacher recommended his lineage as a kindred school among the Theravada. Likewise, Ajahn Chah also knew the Chan scriptures well and respected them.

Sectarianism is generally a negative thing in Buddhism. Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese lineages downplay it as much as possible, and there are obviously Theravada lineages that do the same. On the other extreme, Japanese Buddhism has been divided along sectarian lines for a long time, with sectarian affiliation being a big part of individual practitioners' identity, and a lot of American Buddhists have adopted that mentality as normative--probably because it resembles the state of Protestant Christian denominations that people are accustomed to.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Feel free to practice with whatever school you feel works with you, Theravada included. Just be wary of fundamentalist attitudes and unsubstantiated claims to be the "pure" tradition straight from the Buddha's mouth. It's a living tradition whose scriptures aren't actually any older or more authentic than anybody else's. If people go with Theravada, it should be because they find a good group to practice with and the practice works for them, not because of notions of purity or authenticity.

There are Theravada lineages that are highly respected by Mahayana/Chan practitioners and vice versa. Ajahn Chah of the Thai Forest tradition, for example, taught things that were pretty much identical to what a Chan teacher would say, including about the role of the scriptures and the method and purpose of meditation. Our Chan teacher recommended his lineage as a kindred school among the Theravada. Likewise, Ajahn Chah also knew the Chan scriptures well and respected them.

Sectarianism is generally a negative thing in Buddhism. Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese lineages downplay it as much as possible, and there are obviously Theravada lineages that do the same. On the other extreme, Japanese Buddhism has been divided along sectarian lines for a long time, with sectarian affiliation being a big part of individual practitioners' identity, and a lot of American Buddhists have adopted that mentality as normative--probably because it resembles the state of Protestant Christian denominations that people are accustomed to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sectarian or even trying to be. I have been Vajarayana temples, Ch'an Temples, and Diamond Way centers. I'm open-minded just not sure on what tradition fits what I want. Thanks to your thoughts and insight I have an idea. Any idea where the best place to start on Ajahn Chah's readings? Also, Dharma Drum's founder sounds amazing. What about him?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Sounds kinda judgemental to me.

But I can certainly understand how frustrating it can be when our pre-concieved expectations aren't met. Sux.

That's actually where Buddhism is most effective. Keeping the feet on the ground as it were.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sectarian or even trying to be. I have been Vajarayana temples, Ch'an Temples, and Diamond Way centers. I'm open-minded just not sure on what tradition fits what I want. Thanks to your thoughts and insight I have an idea. Any idea where the best place to start on Ajahn Chah's readings? Also, Dharma Drum's founder sounds amazing. What about him?

I found this pdf of his Dharma talks in translation. It contains the stuff I've read previously. If the master is any indication, it seems like a very vibrant tradition that conveys the heart of Buddhadharma.

Master Sheng Yen published a number of books that can be read in English, and a lot of the contents are similar to the words of Ajahn Chah, but from a Chinese Chan perspective. Sheng Yen also had a short TV spot in Taiwan, and there are a bunch of those videos on Youtube with subtitles. He was our teacher's teacher, so I'm a bit biased perhaps, but I find his manner very down-to-earth, humane, approachable. Chinese Chan masters don't go in for the cryptic mystique that some people associate with Zen, at least not in their everyday behavior and teachings. It's all about practical application and conveying the message in as clear and simple a manner as possible without causing misunderstanding. I can also tell you that the Dharma Drum lineage, while orthodox and traditional on the one hand, is very much geared towards helping laymen to practice hard and make the world a better place. Sheng Yen was also an environmentalist and said the mission of Dharma Drum was to turn this world into a Pure Land. I believe the Dharma Drum lineage offers a vibrant and relevant practice for modern people, that also accurately reflects the Chan tradition at its height. There's a retreat center in NY and some stuff to look at on the website here, including pdf and videos.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

I found this pdf of his Dharma talks in translation. It contains the stuff I've read previously. If the master is any indication, it seems like a very vibrant tradition that conveys the heart of Buddhadharma.

Master Sheng Yen published a number of books that can be read in English, and a lot of the contents are similar to the words of Ajahn Chah, but from a Chinese Chan perspective. Sheng Yen also had a short TV spot in Taiwan, and there are a bunch of those videos on Youtube with subtitles. He was our teacher's teacher, so I'm a bit biased perhaps, but I find his manner very down-to-earth, humane, approachable. Chinese Chan masters don't go in for the cryptic mystique that some people associate with Zen, at least not in their everyday behavior and teachings. It's all about practical application and conveying the message in as clear and simple a manner as possible without causing misunderstanding. I can also tell you that the Dharma Drum lineage, while orthodox and traditional on the one hand, is very much geared towards helping laymen to practice hard and make the world a better place. Sheng Yen was also an environmentalist and said the mission of Dharma Drum was to turn this world into a Pure Land. I believe the Dharma Drum lineage offers a vibrant and relevant practice for modern people, that also accurately reflects the Chan tradition at its height. There's a retreat center in NY and some stuff to look at on the website here, including pdf and videos.

Good luck in your search.

I am unfortunately in Houston. I searched for Dharma Ddum in Houston and there's a number I can call but there doesn't seem to be an actual center as far as I know. I am going to call and see what I can do. Thank you for the well wishes! As for the path for Dharm Drum being hard? That's a good thing. It's supposed to be hard.

That's actually where Buddhism is most effective. Keeping the feet on the ground as it were.

Can you go over what you mean in this post a bit more?

 

[von bek]

Perhaps you might be interested in this tradition, Chung Mei Buddhist Temple Houston, Texas

They are a part of the International Buddhist Progress Society. (Also known as Fo Guang Shan.) Its origins lie in Taiwan and seeks to practice all of the major forms of Chinese Mahayana Buddhism. They also advocate what they call, "Humanistic Buddhism."

There is a Fo Guang Shan temple here in Austin. I practice Theravada and attend a Theravada monastery. However, I also have a high regard and love for Mahayana Buddhism. I want to stop by the Fo Guang Shan center here in town and visit with them.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Perhaps you might be interested in this tradition, Chung Mei Buddhist Temple Houston, Texas

They are a part of the International Buddhist Progress Society. (Also known as Fo Guang Shan.) Its origins lie in Taiwan and seeks to practice all of the major forms of Chinese Mahayana Buddhism. They also advocate what they call, "Humanistic Buddhism."

There is a Fo Guang Shan temple here in Austin. I practice Theravada and attend a Theravada monastery. However, I also have a high regard and love for Mahayana Buddhism. I want to stop by the Fo Guang Shan center here in town and visit with them.

I have actually been there! However, I can't go often because I live alllll the way in Northside Houston and this is all the way in Southside Houston. It's at least a 45-50 minute drive. I will try to go next week for services and report back.

 

[von bek]

I have actually been there! However, I can't go often because I live alllll the way in Northside Houston and this is all the way in Southside Houston. It's at least a 45-50 minute drive. I will try to go next week for services and report back.

Traffic is pretty terrible here in Austin; so, I sympathize with you about how long it can take to get to a place in your own city!

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Traffic is pretty terrible here in Austin; so, I sympathize with you about how long it can take to get to a place in your own city!

Yup, it can be pretty bad. It's not really traffic though. It's sheer distaince. 37.5 miles, actually.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Buddhism is strong in Taiwan generally. It's probably the only East Asian country where it's not struggling.

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Buddhism is strong in Taiwan generally. It's probably the only East Asian country where it's not struggling.

Isn't Buddhism growing in China?

 

[Vishvavajra]

Isn't Buddhism growing in China?

Somewhat, but the situation with the government is still iffy. It's not actively persecuted, and people are gaining an interest and even becoming monks, but the government still doesn't like for religion to be advertised openly. That means there often isn't any kind of structured way for laymen to get involved, and there's practically no community outreach, lest they be accused of proselytizing and "spreading superstition."

 

[Dorothy Dandridge]

Somewhat, but the situation with the government is still iffy. It's not actively persecuted, and people are gaining an interest and even becoming monks, but the government still doesn't like for religion to be advertised openly. That means there often isn't any kind of structured way for laymen to get involved, and there's practically no community outreach, lest they be accused of proselytizing and "spreading superstition."

Would you say Buddhism is dying? It most certainly is in Japan. As the southern Asian nations grow more wealthy and less poor, it will start to fade out there as well.