"Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school"

[Skwim]

What is the difference between a Christian student sending this message and homosexual activist groups running around telling people their lifestyle isn't immoral?

For one thing, promoting religious beliefs on government property runs afoul of the separation of church and state. Homosexuality and other secular notions don't suffer this sort of restriction.

 

[Vinayaka]

That sounds more like Stalinism than democracy.

This gives a whole new meaning to our friend Revoltingest's occasional reference to Canuckistan.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

For one thing, promoting religious beliefs on government property runs afoul of the separation of church and state. Homosexuality and other secular notions don't suffer this sort of restriction.

Wrong

. They like to hide behind the veil of "secularism" when they tread the exact same ground

 

[Vinayaka]

Having been a teacher, it really is a tough call all around on where to draw the line on all kinds of things. These guys (the board) have had to hire a human-rights legal specialist, (at a cost, I'm sure) We used to get students pushing the line almost daily with booze or drug messages, suggestive messages, and yes, religious messages. They just complied when we asked them to put them on inside out. No one was foolish enough to make it into some big issue.

This student is making a fool of himself. Further reading has it that his pastor put him up to it, and intends to have another 100 shirts printed, and other students wear them to school. He (the pastor) is also quoted as saying "The problem with schools these days is they don't teach Christianity." So this kid, I think is just a pawn for someone else's agenda. That, I feel, is truly sad.

 

[Nakosis]

If the statement is so unbelievable, why is it offensive? What about, "Life is wasted without lemonade." Same effect? Probably not. Just implement a school uniform and quit thinking too hard.

You shouldn't be surprised at how powerful words can be.

Or maybe you should. I was. Just to observe and accept the affect words have on people.

It seems counter-intuitive, they are just words.
I don't want to be cliche but words can change the course of nations.

It doesn't make logical sense. Words only have the power individuals give to them but I guess people give them a lot of power.

 

[Father Heathen]

However, if another student had a shirt that said "life is wasted without mohammad/buddha/Krishna/etc." many of those who support the Jesus shirt would likely be screeching and flailing in response.

 

[RisingKnowledge]

"A Christian student suspended from a high school in Nova Scotia for sporting a T-shirt with the slogan "Life is wasted without Jesus" vows to wear it when he returns to class next week.

William Swinimer, who's in Grade 12, was suspended from Forest Heights Community School in Chester Basin in Lunenburg County for five days. He's due to return to class on Monday.

The devout Christian says the T-shirt is an expression of his beliefs, and he won't stop wearing it.

Nancy Pynch-Worthylake, board superintendent, said some students and teachers found the T-shirt offensive.

Swinimer wore the T-shirt every day to class for several weeks. The principal told him repeatedly to stop wearing it, but the student refused to comply.

Swinimer says the principal would have accepted a shirt with the slogan, "My life is wasted without Jesus."
source

​

So, what do you think? To me it looks too much like proselytizing, and should be stopped.

"Supreme Court and the First Amendment at School
US Supreme Court decisions define the scope of the*First Amendment in public school settings. Public schools must have a valid basis to limit free speech rights, and can't act on an undifferentiated fear or apprehension. Schools can:

Limit speech based on a reasonable expectation that it will cause a material and substantial disruption of school activities or invade the rights of others"
From Freedom of Expression in Schools - Lawyers.com

It IMO will disturb other students.

 

[Vinayaka]

"Supreme Court and the First Amendment at School
US Supreme Court decisions define the scope of the*First Amendment in public school settings. Public schools must have a valid basis to limit free speech rights, and can't act on an undifferentiated fear or apprehension. Schools can:

Limit speech based on a reasonable expectation that it will cause a material and substantial disruption of school activities or invade the rights of others"
From Freedom of Expression in Schools - Lawyers.com

It IMO will disturb other students.

Nova Scotia isn't part of the US ... yet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know that the communists of his era felt they had a right to be free from religion, not to be free to practice it. The reality is that steps like this principle is taking bring us one step closer to it becoming a crime to utter the name "God" in public buildings. I think the same people who are siding with the principle on this would love to see such a day dawn on us. A day when the president couldn't even say "God bless you" during working hours. Why because just the utterance of the name "God" can be construed as offensive and disruptive to some people.

It's not about the fact that the shirt mentions God; it's about the fact that the shirt calls other students' lives worthless.

For one thing, promoting religious beliefs on government property runs afoul of the separation of church and state. Homosexuality and other secular notions don't suffer this sort of restriction.

This is in Canada. We have the right to be free of discrimination on the basis of religion, but we don't have separation of church and state.

 

[Skwim]

Wrong

. They like to hide behind the veil of "secularism" when they tread the exact same ground

You mean there's a separation of state and homosexuality clause in the Constitution? Or do you mean that homosexuality is a religion? Just what "same ground" are you talking about, or don't you know?

This is in Canada. We have the right to be free of discrimination on the basis of religion, but we don't have separation of church and state.

Arrrg! You are sooo right. Mea culpa.

 

[fallingblood]

I know we haven't always seen eye to eye but I know you're a sharp guy. Surely you can see that both messages delve into the realm of religion. Just because one group is more likely to be atheist/agnostic does not change the fact despite the fact they like to hide behind the veil of "secularism". If we start choosing which messages we find "acceptable" and which ones we find "offensive" and only allowing the former, how are we different than the Taliban or Ayatollah?

Saying that being gay or homosexuality is not immoral is not in the realm of religion. Besides the fact that some religious people are intolerant and have a prejudice against individuals they consider "others."

Now, saying being gay is not immoral is not saying anything about anyone else. Saying that life is worthless without Jesus is implying that everyone who doesn't follow Jesus, their lives are worthless. There is a huge difference.

Maybe he should trying wearing a T-Shirt which says being a Christian isn't immoral.

I don't understand what you're even saying here. This isn't an issue about being Christian, or religious. It is about an individual, in effect, being a bully by implying that those who are not like him, their lives are worthless. That is not tolerant, that is not Christ-like, and simply, it is ridiculous.




The issue again is not that the kid wore a shirt proclaiming Jesus. The article said there was nothing wrong with that. It was that he wore a shirt saying that "others" lives were worthless if they didn't have Jesus in them. That is a horrible message, and yes, it is disruptive and has no place in school.

 

[RisingKnowledge]

Nova Scotia isn't part of the US ... yet.

My bad did not see that.

 

[Straw Dog]

"A Christian student suspended from a high school in Nova Scotia for sporting a T-shirt with the slogan "Life is wasted without Jesus" vows to wear it when he returns to class next week.

William Swinimer, who's in Grade 12, was suspended from Forest Heights Community School in Chester Basin in Lunenburg County for five days. He's due to return to class on Monday.

The devout Christian says the T-shirt is an expression of his beliefs, and he won't stop wearing it.

Nancy Pynch-Worthylake, board superintendent, said some students and teachers found the T-shirt offensive.

Swinimer wore the T-shirt every day to class for several weeks. The principal told him repeatedly to stop wearing it, but the student refused to comply.

Swinimer says the principal would have accepted a shirt with the slogan, "My life is wasted without Jesus."
source

​

So, what do you think? To me it looks too much like proselytizing, and should be stopped.

I wonder if Jesus would have ever worn a shirt that said, "Life is a waste without me."

 

[tumbleweed41]

What is the difference between a Christian student sending this message and homosexual activist groups running around telling people their lifestyle isn't immoral? Do not public schools see both messages spread by students? Let them both do their thing I say. Sometimes lovers of democracy need to tolerate a little offensiveness for the sake of preserving our freedom

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand...

Swinimer says the principal would have accepted a shirt with the slogan, "My life is wasted without Jesus."

Do you get it yet?

The principle did not want him to wear the shirt because it included everyone's life.

Life is wasted without Jesus

And he gave him multiple chances! But the student repeatedly defied the principles orders. Days upon days! And admits he will do so again when the suspension is over.

Here is an example I hope you will understand.

If you post here on RF, and tell another member that their life is a waste without Jesus, your post will be deleted as proselytization because it is disruptive to the purpose of this Forum. If you continue to so, you will be restricted (suspended) for ignoring the rules.

However, if you were to tell a member on RF that your life is empty without Jesus, there is no violation. You are simply expressing your own personal belief without pushing it on others or being disruptive.

Now, do you think the RF Staff is being "Stallinistic" or "Communist", or attempting to remove any mention of GOD or Jesus from a Religious Forum?

Or is it just common sense.

 

[Straw Dog]

Life is wasted without Karl.

 

[Falvlun]

Personally, as long as it's not a threatening message (You'll burn in hell! sort of thing), I don't think religious messages should have to be suppressed. People believe different things. The sooner kids learn to understand that, and not take it personally, the better.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand...

Do you get it yet?

The principle did not want him to wear the shirt because it included everyone's life.

And he gave him multiple chances! But the student repeatedly defied the principles orders. Days upon days! And admits he will do so again when the suspension is over.

Here is an example I hope you will understand.

If you post here on RF, and tell another member that their life is a waste without Jesus, your post will be deleted as proselytization because it is disruptive to the purpose of this Forum. If you continue to so, you will be restricted (suspended) for ignoring the rules.

However, if you were to tell a member on RF that your life is empty without Jesus, there is no violation. You are simply expressing your own personal belief without pushing it on others or being disruptive.

Now, do you think the RF Staff is being "Stallinistic" or "Communist", or attempting to remove any mention of GOD or Jesus from a Religious Forum?

Or is it just common sense.

RF being a private entity is well within its rights to censor any type of language. On the other hand, while some people interpret that t-shirt as a violation of church and state separation we must consider that the school building is public property. If we can't express our beliefs and/or pray on public property then we are not a free people. This is under the assumption that schools don't take an official position on religion. And God help us if we're supposed to feel obliged to bow to everyone's easily offended sense of what's approriate. A policy of yielding to people's demands every time they claim to be offended is just begging to be used as a tool of manipulation for those looking to silence certain opinions. Like I said, for the sake of freedom and democracy sometimes we need to suck it up when people are saying things we find repulsive

 

[Sleeppy]

You shouldn't be surprised at how powerful words can be.

Or maybe you should. I was. Just to observe and accept the affect words have on people.

It seems counter-intuitive, they are just words.
I don't want to be cliche but words can change the course of nations.

It doesn't make logical sense. Words only have the power individuals give to them but I guess people give them a lot of power.

There are always reasons for the power put behind words.. I could go into more detail, but I think you understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Personally, as long as it's not a threatening message (You'll burn in hell! sort of thing), I don't think religious messages should have to be suppressed. People believe different things. The sooner kids learn to understand that, and not take it personally, the better.

I think that the self-esteem of kids is a legitimate concern of a public school, and I think that forbidding a shirt with a message that implies that many students at that school are worthless is a perfectly acceptable application of that concern.

There are lots of nasty things that kids will encounter in the "real world", but that doesn't mean that the school administration shouldn't endeavour to make the school as safe and encouraging as possible.

 

[tumbleweed41]

RF being a private entity is well within its rights to censor any type of language. On the other hand, while some people interpret that t-shirt as a violation of church and state separation we must consider that the school building is public property. If we can't express our beliefs and/or pray on public property then we are not a free people. This is under the assumption that schools don't take an official position on religion. And God help us if we're supposed to feel obliged to bow to everyone's easily offended sense of what's approriate. A policy of yielding to people's demands every time they claim to be offended is just begging to be used as a tool of manipulation for those looking to silence certain opinions. Like I said, for the sake of freedom and democracy sometimes we need to suck it up when people are saying things we find repulsive

So you would be fine with my atheist son repeatedly wearing a t-shirt to school that stated "Worshiping Jesus is a waste of time" or "Christianity kills"?

You don't think that would be disruptive to an educational environment?