Suffering and evil

[Trailblazer]

This is a big reason why I don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God. Suffering and evil are much more understandable in a universe without that kind of deity.

We evolved in such a way that we're capable of experiencing suffering and of creating moral systems that allow us to describe things as evil. As a result, we're going to experience both over the course of our lives. It's just one of the drawbacks of being human in a universe that absolutely does not view us as special.

There is absolutely no reason to think that if a an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God existed there would be no suffering, since there is no reason to think that God would prevent suffering, just because some people don't like it.

We evolved in such a way that we're capable of experiencing suffering but we can follow moral systems that allow us to alleviate some of that suffering. Because we are human and have physical bodies with needs and desires, we're going to experience both pain and joy over the course of our lives. It's just part of being human.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my view, there are plenty of natural causes for all such to happen - unfortunately.

And that is why most suffering happens, from natural causes.
The other suffering that comes to man is because of man's inhumanity to man.
Why blame God for either of these, or expect God to fix them? It's not logical.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I'm not a big fan of blaming the victim.

IMO, it's not perfect, but it beats having a punishing and vindictive god.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is really only a problem for monotheists with a tri-omni deity.

It is not a problem for us monotheists at all. It is only a problem for atheists who have expectations of the deity.

 

[soulsurvivor]

How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.

The explanation is pretty simple if you believe in karma and reincarnation (I am a Hindu). All the miseries and suffering you face are the result of your karma or actions in your past lives. So future suffering is a result of current actions/harm that you do to others. At the same time the world in general gets better and better as all the karma slowly gets atoned for, people improve and commit less harm to others. Eventually we will live in a world which is practically free of any suffering. See an explanation of karma here: Individual Karma and Group Karma

 

[paarsurrey]

Long story short:
Satan used to be an angel but he rebelled against God. He wanted to rule over others so he lied to Adam and Eve and they chose to believe his lie that God was withholding something from them, and they would be better off doing their own thing.
When Adam and Even disobeyed God's instructions, they became imperfect and passed on that imperfection to all their descendants (Rom. 5:12).
By doing this God gave Satan and humans the opportunity to rule themselves, but we have to live with the consequences. Even though He doesn't cause suffering, He's not stopping it yet.
Why do we suffer? For a number of reasons. Could be because of bad decisions (ours or someone else's), simple bad luck, because this system is extremely unfair... There are many different scenarios.
That doesn't mean God is indifferent to our suffering. He did promise to put an end to it after a certain amount of time (Revelation 21: 3,4).

Quote from friend @ Vee a JW," Satan used to be an angel!, Rom. 5:12, Revelation 21: 3,4" Unquote

Satan was never an Angel, (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never told this concept, one gets to know, please, right?

How could a " JW Christian" base concepts ignoring Yeshua's warning that those who do not follow Him build their lives as houses on sand, liable to be washed away by the elements, one understands, please? Right?

The verses " Rom. 5:12, Revelation 21: 3,4 " are not from Yeshua, please:

Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)
The Roman Catholic Holy Bible with the words of Jesus in red.
World Messianic Bible

Right?

Regards

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO, it's not perfect, but it beats having a punishing and vindictive god.

"vindictive" seems more than a little anthropomorphic.

 

[idea]

How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.

I can't believe in a God that doesn't keep these things from happening too. Much better to chuck it up to just the laws if nature, than add the additional suffering believing an all-powerful being turns his back and allows it to happen.

 

[idea]

The God of the Bible is Not omnipotent because there are things God can Not do - God can Not lie - Titus 1:2
The God of the Bible is Not omniscient because we are created with free-will choice.
So, God does Not see into the future what our free-will choices are or will be.
As far as omnibenevolent we can picture a town where all the workers are employed by one town business.
The owner goes bankrupt and all the workers loose their jobs.
A benevolent person decides to buy the bankrupt business and put all the employees back to work.
The God of the Bible is like that benevolent person because Satan and Adam and Eve bankrupted us.
He sent heavenly Jesus to earth for us to undo all the damage Satan and Adam and Eve brought upon us.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and undo all the suffering by bringing ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

The freewill argument doesn't work, as much suffering isn't the result of freewill.

Suffering doesn't always refine.

Suffering isn't a just test (student not correctly taught, the teacher, not student, is at fault).

Suffering beyond ability to bear - suicide, mental illness born of war/abuse. God isn't benevolent.

Condemning anyone based on Adam/Satan - unjust, unloving, unmerciful, illogical.

Atonement idea is also unjust, unloving, unmerciful, illogical.

Invited to pray? I know from experience prayers are not answered.

 

[Erebus]

There is absolutely no reason to think that if a an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God existed there would be no suffering, since there is no reason to think that God would prevent suffering, just because some people don't like it.

We evolved in such a way that we're capable of experiencing suffering but we can follow moral systems that allow us to alleviate some of that suffering. Because we are human and have physical bodies with needs and desires, we're going to experience both pain and joy over the course of our lives. It's just part of being human.

I think for the existence of suffering to work alongside the idea of an omnibenevolent God, you would need to be able to show that suffering is either beneficial to us or unavoidable. It would be difficult to argue that all examples of suffering are beneficial to us but I could certainly see a case for it being unavoidable. However, adding omnipotence and omniscience into the mix makes either option impossible as far as I can see as not all forms of suffering are required for us to get the most out of life.

For example, somebody running a marathon is going to suffer. They'll be sore, tired and frequently want to give up but that suffering makes their eventual success all the sweeter. If suffering was confined to that kind of situation then I could certainly see how it could be beneficial and/or unavoidable.

The fact is though that people suffer needlessly, without any lesson to be learned or personal growth to be had. Somebody burning to death endures agony without any higher purpose to it. The free will argument only goes so far here as people die from accidents or illnesses all the time without any decision making from themselves or others. Would it really interfere with free will for God to prevent volcanic eruptions for example? How about congenital illnesses?

I've honestly never encountered an argument for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God that doesn't fall flat. At least in my opinion. It seems you have to handwave away examples of suffering that don't work well alongside whichever argument you've chosen.

The simplest way around this problem while maintaining a belief in God is to drop one or more of those qualities. @URAVIP2ME claimed that God isn't omnipotent or omniscient in their reply to me:

The God of the Bible is Not omnipotent because there are things God can Not do - God can Not lie - Titus 1:2
The God of the Bible is Not omniscient because we are created with free-will choice.
So, God does Not see into the future what our free-will choices are or will be.
As far as omnibenevolent we can picture a town where all the workers are employed by one town business.
The owner goes bankrupt and all the workers loose their jobs.
A benevolent person decides to buy the bankrupt business and put all the employees back to work.
The God of the Bible is like that benevolent person because Satan and Adam and Eve bankrupted us.
He sent heavenly Jesus to earth for us to undo all the damage Satan and Adam and Eve brought upon us.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and undo all the suffering by bringing ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

The problem of evil and its variants (the problem of suffering in this case) only applies to an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God. As @Quintessence pointed out earlier, it's an issue that the vast majority of god concepts just don't have to contend with.

 

[idea]

What I'm proposing is that the purpose, the ultimate desire is to reward, not to test.

The best rewards are not given, but earned. The best rewards do not come from God, but from within, from our own two hands.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..The fact is though that people suffer needlessly, without any lesson to be learned or personal growth to be had. Somebody burning to death endures agony without any higher purpose to it. The free will argument only goes so far here as people die from accidents or illnesses all the time without any decision making from themselves or others..

Why are you equating mortality with suffering?
It is quite obvious why we suffer from being burnt .. it doesn't follow that God wants us to suffer unnecessarily.

Would it really interfere with free will for God to prevent volcanic eruptions for example? How about congenital illnesses?

All you are doing, is suggesting that God could have made a "better world".
I have no reason to believe that any other than God could have created the universe .. but there are no shortage of people claiming they could do it better.

I've honestly never encountered an argument for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God that doesn't fall flat. At least in my opinion. It seems you have to handwave away examples of suffering that don't work well alongside whichever argument you've chosen..

It's quite simple really. We all have to die.
..and although it might seem that death is a long way off, nobody knows exactly when their death will be.
Any suffering that we might experience here through no fault of our own, will seem like a distant memory, to those that are righteous.

The problem of evil and its variants (the problem of suffering in this case) only applies to an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God.

Only if your idea of an omnibenevolent God is one that would not create an independent mind, that is capable of choosing evil.

An independent mind that is not capable of evil, is one that is not truly independent.

 

[InChrist]

How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.

I believe the biblical perspective is that, although the Creator created a good world free of suffering, pain, and death, it was tainted by human sin. This is now a fallen world where the damaging consequences of sin infects everyone, everywhere to one degree or another. God is allowing the temporary world conditions so that people see the harmfulness of sin, the folly of life apart from God’s wisdom, and have the opportunity to choose a different road through Christ to the new heaven and earth.

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. Isaiah 65:17

Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:13


Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Revelation 21:1-4

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't believe in a God that doesn't keep these things from happening too. Much better to chuck it up to just the laws if nature, than add the additional suffering believing an all-powerful being turns his back and allows it to happen.

God does not have a back, only humans have backs.
God is not like Superman who rescues humans from suffering.

Why should God eliminate suffering? Nobody can ever answer that question. "Because God is omnipotent" is not an answer. An omnipotent God could also eliminate every living thing from the face of the earth in one split second, but God doesn't do that.

Yes, a lot of suffering is because of the laws of nature, but that does not mean there is not a God.

 

[osgart]

The source reality is not able to influence our physical reality in any major way. Life is a very minor player in the physical universe.

The eternal foundational reality has serious limits here. Source reality is wild and untamed. Each life form is a small vessel and a mere droplet in the infinitely vast sea of intelligence. The roots of this sea is mysterious.

Whomever is responsible for the existence of life here has no authority here as well. Eternal Life forms are not gods.

Supreme realities don't exist. There's no perfect paradise. There's no all powerful force. Every life form has limits. This world is not a classroom. Good and evil are a result of heart choices of becoming. Suffering is inevitable.

In my religion life is always seeking a home and never able to find it. Developing our higher nature is a pathway to a better eternity. The lower nature is fleeting with no lasting permanence. The evil nature is senseless hatred and arrogance. So wherever life is there will always be a war between good and evil. Perhaps evil can be defeated. Something like a karma plays out in reality.

 

[dybmh]

Yeah, but the reward only comes after the test.

Unless there is no before and after, none of that applies to an eternal being. Even testing loses meaning without the limitation of time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unless there is no before and after, none of that applies to an eternal being. Even testing loses meaning without the limitation of time.

I am not sure what you mean by that.

 

[DNB]

How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.

In the case of evil perpetrated by humans, I believe that God has endowed men with free will and thus cannot intervene without compromising that principle.
If God were to stop war, murders, rape, kidnapping, spousal or child abuse, etc, all people would say 'great'. But where is the line drawn: what about stealing, lying, cheating, swearing, or perverted thoughts? What about double parking or not paying traffic tickets, littering, or not wiping the bench at the gym? At what point does God keep incapacitating our ability to sin, until He entirely takes away our free will? Therefore, things must play out as they are until Judgment Day.

As far as natural disasters are concerned, I believe that these are warnings. First of all, we're all guilty of sin and behaving contemptuously and defiantly towards God - we all deserve to die. Thus, natural disasters are a warning to all to repent, for since death is our just due, and therefore, God is willing to allow thousands to die in such a manner, what do you think will occur on Judgment Day for those who have been given abundant time to repent and have refused? These tragedies forewarn that God is not pleased with the world, and loss and perdition awaits us all unless we worship God in the manner that He deserves - by our devotion and righteousness.

 

[idea]

God does not have a back, only humans have backs.
God is not like Superman who rescues humans from suffering.

Why should God eliminate suffering? Nobody can ever answer that question. "Because God is omnipotent" is not an answer. An omnipotent God could also eliminate every living thing from the face of the earth in one split second, but God doesn't do that.

Yes, a lot of suffering is because of the laws of nature, but that does not mean there is not a God.

It comes down to definitions. The existence of suffering dies logically eliminate the existence of an all-powerful and just and loving God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It comes down to definitions. The existence of suffering dies logically eliminate the existence of an all-powerful and just and loving God.

Why should a just and loving God eliminate suffering? Nobody can ever answer that question.