Sunnah

[Spirit of Light]

This is a question for Muslims mostly but anyone is free to add to the discussion.

As far as I know, Islam teaches that it is the original religion as practiced by Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. and I'm wondering how can this be, since Islam includes the sunnah of Muhammad, which surely could not have existed at the time of the Patriarchs, since Muhammad was thousands of years after them? How did they, in your belief, practice Islam?

Thanks.

Sunnah is the teaching of how prophet Muhammed lived and practiced. As a sufi the sunnah is very important to understand and follow, og course it take time to start living by those guidelines sunnah giving.

To become as close to our prophet we try to think, act and speak accord to how Muhammed did it.

I know others will disagree with my post here, but that is ok

 

[firedragon]

That's a claim almost all new groups make "we are the best, we are the original, we are the source". I call it PR. Not all PR is truth-based

That does not answer the question of the OP. Sorry brother, but it seems like you saw an opportunity to take a put shot and you took it. Surprising really.

When someone asks a question, try and answer it, not pick one sentence and use it to hurl at someone. It is beneath you my friend.

 

[firedragon]

I think I can find many of them in the Qur'an. Challenge accepted

Wudu:

O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.

Quran 5:6.

Salat:

Say, “Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call – to Him belong the best names.” And do not recite [too] loudly in your prayer or [too] quietly but seek between that an [intermediate] way.

17:110

O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you – some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

24:58.

O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.

4:43

Women's dress:

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.”

24:31.

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.”

33:59

Hajj:

Just see here I guess Verses in Quran about Hajj | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Blessings:

Al-Fatihah comes to mind.

Diet:

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:173.

Obviously stuff like idol worship etc. is in the Qur'an and the punishment in death and going to Hell.

(Sorry, I'm just really bored I'm not actually arguing with you )

Is it irony or providence that you picked an "Anti Sunnah" website for a "Sunnah" topic?

 

[firedragon]

How would that be 'the same' religion though? If you took Christianity and eliminated half the practices and beliefs, it would no longer be Christianity.

Rival. I dont think that's valid. Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but they dont believe Christianity is the same religion as Islam. Maybe I have misunderstood you so you could correct me.

There is a Jewish group that I know of who call themselves some Jewish name which I dont recall correctly. I have a friend and his family are all part of this church or synagogue as they call it. They dont believe in a inheritance based on lineage or blood but anyone could convert and join this church. They believe Jesus was a prophet of God, and that he was the messiah, but they dont believe in a trinity or that Jesus was divine.

I know this very different from the Judaism that we know of. But they call themselves Jewish and their religion Judaism. Is it the same religion or is it a cut away branch?

Consider Christianity and Islam the same way. I am not arguing that Islam is the right religion or if it is correct, but I am trying to show you the concept of Islam. If you read the Quran it never uses the word "Christianity" or "Christian", it says "Nasara". It is a reference we associate with Christians. Thus, it does not address the religion of Christianity. The correct reference for Christianity should be something like "Al Masiheeun" which is the exact, direct translation of the word Christianity.

Yes, the Islamic concept is that Jesus was a Muslim, and his followers were Muslim. Same with Abraham. Thus, saying if you take out half the practices, Christianity would no longer be Christianity is true in a way. But what does that make? Maybe lets say if you take out the trinity, and make it one God, it becomes an absolutely monotheistic faith like Judaism or Islam. What else could we make out of it?

Maybe I did not understand you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To play Devil's advocate.

The claim is that the original religion given to man was Abrahamic Monotheism. It was "Islam" in the sense that Islam means submission to the will of the true God.

Islam as revealed by Muhammad is a later in time correction of the supposed accretions of Judaism and Christianity. I don't think Muslims are claiming Adam had access to the Qur'an or the Sunnah literature.

I tend to agree with that.

It's also an obviously false claim, since the oldest religions are not at all monotheistic.

 

[danieldemol]

So what of things like praying facing Mecca 5 times a day facing Mecca?

Do Muslims claim that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus did this?

Because if they didn't that would appear to bring us back to @Rival 's point that if you took a religion and changed the practices in it it is essentially a different religion.

 

[Rival]

Is it irony or providence that you picked an "Anti Sunnah" website for a "Sunnah" topic?

Not sure what you are taking about here? I picked these all myself and took the quotes from no one particular place.

 

[Rival]

Rival. I dont think that's valid. Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but they dont believe Christianity is the same religion as Islam. Maybe I have misunderstood you so you could correct me.

There is a Jewish group that I know of who call themselves some Jewish name which I dont recall correctly. I have a friend and his family are all part of this church or synagogue as they call it. They dont believe in a inheritance based on lineage or blood but anyone could convert and join this church. They believe Jesus was a prophet of God, and that he was the messiah, but they dont believe in a trinity or that Jesus was divine.

I know this very different from the Judaism that we know of. But they call themselves Jewish and their religion Judaism. Is it the same religion or is it a cut away branch?

Consider Christianity and Islam the same way. I am not arguing that Islam is the right religion or if it is correct, but I am trying to show you the concept of Islam. If you read the Quran it never uses the word "Christianity" or "Christian", it says "Nasara". It is a reference we associate with Christians. Thus, it does not address the religion of Christianity. The correct reference for Christianity should be something like "Al Masiheeun" which is the exact, direct translation of the word Christianity.

Yes, the Islamic concept is that Jesus was a Muslim, and his followers were Muslim. Same with Abraham. Thus, saying if you take out half the practices, Christianity would no longer be Christianity is true in a way. But what does that make? Maybe lets say if you take out the trinity, and make it one God, it becomes an absolutely monotheistic faith like Judaism or Islam. What else could we make out of it?

Maybe I did not understand you.

I was giving an example.

If we take all the sunnah practices out of Islam, is it any longer Islam? Referring to the Qur'an quote that I referenced earlier saying that Noah etc. all had the same religion. If they haven't Muhammad's sunnah, is it still Islam? is my question.

 

[firedragon]

Not sure what you are taking about here? I picked these all myself and took the quotes from no one particular place.

Haha. No worries. You gave a link to submission.org, which is an anti sunnah website.

Anyway I was only kidding with you at the irony.

 

[stvdv]

That does not answer the question of the OP. Sorry brother, but it seems like you saw an opportunity to take a put shot and you took it. Surprising really.

When someone asks a question, try and answer it, not pick one sentence and use it to hurl at someone. It is beneath you my friend.

This time you have it wrong my friend. I did answer to the OP. But I admit it was a bit of a hidden question, not easy to see obviously. And this has nothing to do with taking a shot. I can't help that some religious people misbehave, but they should be grateful when their mistakes are pointed out.

My Master taught us "IF someone criticizes you, what should you do?":
1: IF he is right THEN you should thank him, as he gave you the opportunity to improve yourself
2: IF he is wrongTHEN you need not worry at all, because he is wrong, not you. Then he has something to worry.

 

[firedragon]

I was giving an example.

If we take all the sunnah practices out of Islam, is it any longer Islam? Referring to the Qur'an quote that I referenced earlier saying that Noah etc. all had the same religion. If they haven't Muhammad's sunnah, is it still Islam? is my question.

Well, again, its not Muhammeds Sunnah. It is the messengers Sunnah. I think you missed that whole post.

And to answer your question, yes, even if you want to take away all of the Sunnah of the messenger, it is still Islam.

Ironically, you quoted a website that is absolutely with out any Sunnah of the messenger. Zilch. I mean zero. And they are also still Muslims. Just to reiterate, you could go through the same website you quoted. www.submission.org.

 

[firedragon]

This time you have it wrong my friend. I did answer to the OP. But I admit it was a bit of a hidden question, not easy to see obviously. And this has nothing to do with taking a shot. I can't help that some religious people misbehave, but they should be grateful when their mistakes are pointed out.

My Master taught us "IF someone criticizes you, what should you do?":
1: IF he is right THEN you should thank him, as he gave you the opportunity to improve yourself
2: IF he is wrongTHEN you need not worry at all, because he is wrong, not you. Then he has something to worry.

My master told me to investigate when you are given information.

 

[Rival]

Well, again, its not Muhammeds Sunnah. It is the messengers Sunnah. I think you missed that whole post.

And to answer your question, yes, even if you want to take away all of the Sunnah of the messenger, it is still Islam.

Ironically, you quoted a website that is absolutely with out any Sunnah of the messenger. Zilch. I mean zero. And they are also still Muslims. Just to reiterate, you could go through the same website you quoted. www.submission.org.

That's intriguing.

So, for example, where do things like how to make correct wudu come from? Or is this not a big issue?

I suppose what I'm trying to ask is, how would a Muslim know how to go about his daily life without the sunnah, any sunnah? E.g., what does he pray over his food? What does he wear? Etc.

Thanks.

 

[stvdv]

My master told me to investigate when you are given information.

That is good advice. I always do. IF this is a silent hint that I did not investigate your info THEN I can tell you that I did. But I thought that my reply was enough info for you to find the hidden question yourself. But if you still don't see it then I can point it out clearly to you.

 

[firedragon]

So what of things like praying facing Mecca 5 times a day facing Mecca?

Do Muslims claim that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus did this?

Because if they didn't that would appear to bring us back to @Rival 's point that if you took a religion and changed the practices in it it is essentially a different religion.

Thats because you have a prototype understanding of a religion and are not quite aware of it.

To answer your question, no, Muslims dont claim that all of those prophets you mentioned "did this". Also, Mecca, according to Muslim traditions is a new "qibla". So earlier, according to them, it was Jerusalem.

 

[firedragon]

That's intriguing.

So, for example, where do things like how to make correct wudu come from? Or is this not a big issue?

I suppose what I'm trying to ask is, how would a Muslim know how to go about his daily life without the sunnah, any sunnah? E.g., what does he pray over his food? What does he wear? Etc.

Thanks.

How to make Wudhu is explicitly explained in the Quran, and you had already given that verse.

Nevertheless, some of the ahadith on this practice has a slight difference. Which means they are either complementing or contradicting the Quran. So if you want to be strict with it, go to the Quran. Simple.

This will not make you a non-muslim.

You have built a very narrow idea of what Islam is. If you think "Islam" is what you wear, what you recite over food etc that's absolutely false. I am actually a bit surprised at that.

Even according to some of the oldest scholarship/schools of thought in Islam, there are two ideas about Sunnah. One is ahadith, the other is tradition of Medina.

Lets take the head cap that Muslims wear as an example. Some Muslims take it as Sunnah to wear it. But where does it come from? It has no real foundation anywhere.

Also, the most important Sunnah of the prophet Muslims are told repeatedly to practice in the Maliki School is to use the voice of reason. This is a Sunnah.

I hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

That is good advice. I always do. IF this is a silent hint that I did not investigate your info THEN I can tell you that I did. But I thought that my reply was enough info for you to find the hidden question yourself. But if you still don't see it then I can point it out clearly to you.

Of course it was good advice. It was God's. My master is God. The Quran says the only Maula is God himself. So this "advice" is a verse of the Quran.

 

[danieldemol]

Thats because you have a prototype understanding of a religion and are not quite aware of it.

Can you rephrase, I don't get what you mean by a 'prototype understanding' of religion.

 

[Rival]

How to make Wudhu is explicitly explained in the Quran, and you had already given that verse.

Nevertheless, some of the ahadith on this practice has a slight difference. Which means they are either complementing or contradicting the Quran. So if you want to be strict with it, go to the Quran. Simple.

This will not make you a non-muslim.

You have built a very narrow idea of what Islam is. If you think "Islam" is what you wear, what you recite over food etc that's absolutely false. I am actually a bit surprised at that.

Even according to some of the oldest scholarship/schools of thought in Islam, there are two ideas about Sunnah. One is ahadith, the other is tradition of Medina.

Lets take the head cap that Muslims wear as an example. Some Muslims take it as Sunnah to wear it. But where does it come from? It has no real foundation anywhere.

Also, the most important Sunnah of the prophet Muslims are told repeatedly to practice in the Maliki School is to use the voice of reason. This is a Sunnah.

I hope you understand.

I do get this, but a religion tends to need practice, festivals etc. So yes, while these things may not be strictly required, religion as a whole tends to need rituals etc. which make people 'feel', for perhaps lack of a better word, religious. As though they are actively doing something for their god.

 

[firedragon]

I do get this, but a religion tends to need practice, festivals etc. So yes, while these things may not be strictly required, religion as a whole tends to need rituals etc. which make people 'feel', for perhaps lack of a better word, religious. As though they are actively doing something for their god.

Thats not Islam.

What you are speaking of is one portion of Islam. In fact, please dont get offended by this yet its easier to say that you imposing this upon Islam. Even Muslim traditions dont make you "no Islam" due to getting rid of one of these things like festivals.

You know something? Al Azhar university and its teen are considered very high authority in Islam. And some of the Muslims that I know of consider them fanatical. I mean some. Even this so called "fanatical" entity does not make this claim that you do.

If you have some time, take up a writing of Imam Malik Ibn Anas. This guy is the oldest school of though in Islam. I mean older than all the other traditions in the history of Islam. To stress upon it, it is older than Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafii, Ashari, Wahabi, Zahiri, Deobandi, this, that, and the other. Just read it. You will understand Islam better.

Dont believe it. But know it.

Peace.