Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

[icehorse]

Nothing to do with the United Nations, that's for sure. A limp and ineffective puppet of the Anglo American World Power.

I'll be around if you decide to debate in good faith.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Link: Bristol university Islamic Society gets talk on extremist speakers cancelled."

Which could mean that they would talk about it privately and not publicly. Nothing surprising there. Extremist speech at the moment will not be liked by non-Muslims.

I would agree that Islam can be a truly horrible ideology, and that it is up to us to reject it, but calling for reformation of a religion we aren't a part of is just asking for trouble.

Yeah, how do you reform God's word? Just not possible. Islam is what it is; whether 7th century or 21st century.

 

[Firemorphic]

As I've said many, many, many times, I advocate for the modern human rights as described in the UDHR. The leaders of the Muslim world rejected the UDHR and created the CDHRI in its stead.

So it's simple, I'm for the UDHR and against the CDHRI, and so I'm against the world's Muslims leaders.

OIC are not the "leaders" of the Muslim world

But you seem to be trying to dodge the bullet again with what I replied to you about with your statements of forced reformation.

 

[Earthling]

I'll be around if you decide to debate in good faith.

Okay, then, let's start from scratch.

• Article 1: Innate freedom and equality.
• Article 2: Ban on discrimination.
• Article 3: Right to life.
• Article 4: Ban on slavery.
• Article 5: Ban on torture.
• Article 6: Right to recognition as a person before the law.
• Article 7: Equality before the law. (Link) (Also see 1-30)

Sounds good. But who's going to enforce it?

No one. "Human rights hold universal values which should be adopted by states worldwide. A common challenge to this view is the concept of cultural relativism. ... Western origins of human rights and the incompatibility of its imposition are argued to prove human rights should not and cannot be universally applicable." (Link)

I've already raised the issue of who Declared the concept. (Link) The bloody history of those pulling the strings is highly dubious at best.

The good intentions of the 43? or 48 countries that signed it obviously doesn't constitute anything of real substance beyond a distraction. Hypocrisy? OK, I'll give you that. It's a good marker for hypocrisy.

Bottom line is, to each his own so long as he does no harm to anyone other than himself. It's about personal responsibility over social reform.

 

[icehorse]

OIC are not the "leaders" of the Muslim world

But you seem to be trying to dodge the bullet again with what I replied to you about with your statements of forced reformation.

When did I say anything about forced reformation? I think that if Muslims don't reform Islam, we're all going to be in a world of hurt, that's all.

As for the OIC, handy that.

 

[icehorse]

Bottom line is, to each his own so long as he does no harm to anyone other than himself.

And that is my point. Islam doesn't follow that simple idea. E.g. apostasy is a crime in Islam.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The UDHR is not vague, it's very clear. And it's certainly a far better set of guidelines than any ancient scripture is.

Have you read any? Compare it with Buddhism. All UDHR wants is to break traditions in favor of Christianity.

 

[Firemorphic]

When did I say anything about forced reformation?

Well....

That said, unreformed Islam is a truly horrible ideology.

Other religions have reformed. So must Islam.

I think that if Muslims don't reform Islam, we're all going to be in a world of hurt, that's all.

Reform who? and who's Islam? from what? and to what? You speak on vague authoritative terms that could be applied to anything someone doesn't like.

As for the OIC, handy that.

You have a very skewed idea of "leaders", but sure, contort the word to fit your ideology.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, how do you reform God's word? Just not possible. Islam is what it is; whether 7th century or 21st century.

I think that's another story altogether. The preface for the Skeptic's Annotated Bible suggests expurgating the Bible according to the whims of modern thinking, which is, admittedly, in my opinion at least, just stupid even from an atheists perspective, surprising though it is considering the general contempt for book burning among the skeptical, but my concern is the reformation of modern day interpretations of . . . anything. If you interfere with any world view or belief system or lifestyle etc. you just are just asking for the same. What you base your reformation upon is under the same interference, so it doesn't matter how contemptible it might be if you have any degree of insight you can see the table turning.

A Dune quote: "In my estimation, more misery had been created by reformers than any other force in human history. Show me someone who says, "Something must be done!" and I will show you a head full of vicious intentions that have no other outlet. What we must strive for always is to find the natural flow and go with it." - The Reverend Mother Taraza, Conversational Record, BG File GSXXMAAT9

 

[Earthling]

And that is my point. Islam doesn't follow that simple idea. E.g. apostasy is a crime in Islam.

Sure, but what constitutes apostasy to Islam? Anyone who doesn't believe like they do, or anyone who was once Islam and turned away in some terrible and harmful fashion? My suggestion would be don't be a Muslim. Like I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses and declined not to be one because I couldn't condone their forced policy on blood transfusions. And I agree with their position. Just not their authority to enforce it among, for example, children. Now, to them, an apostate is one of them who not just disassociates themselves but actively criticizes their organization, because they are of the mind that their organization is under the direct control of Jehovah God.

I wouldn't want to interfere with that. To say, oh, no, we can't have this. All of this shunning and tearing apart of families. So, don't be a JW. Problem solved.

I think I said it early in this thread, or somewhere, it's all about the church and state. In the West it is supposedly about Christian values, which is debatable. Okay, not really, it's a crock of ****e, but the same applies to Muslim countries.

Treason is a crime in China, India, the United States, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, among all mostly Islamic countries . . . what about that? I'm not endorsing Islam's position on apostasy or anything else, I'm just saying you got a lot of gall to point a finger and you may find three more pointing back at you.

That's sort of why I don't want much to do with governments or religion.

 

[kiwimac]

Thanks for your comments @icehorse . In New Zealand we have about 60,000 Muslims that make up just ove 1% of our community.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

We’ve never had problems from our Muslim community with acts of terror. The last politically motivated act of terrorism was 34 years ago when the French government blew up a Greenpeace boat used to protest against their testing nuclear weapons in the Pacific.

Sinking the Rainbow Warrior - Nuclear-free New Zealand | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

Like many places in the Western world we have had a rare instance when a person takes it upon himself to go on a shooting spree but never any Muslims.

Aramoana massacre - Wikipedia

We had our first Muslim member of parliament in 2002 who provided distinguished service for nine years before retiring.

Ashraf Choudhary - Wikipedia

It is natural for ethnic and religious minorities to wish others would see the world as they do. In fact that is human nature. However there’s no serious discussion about New Zealand becoming Muslim, Buddhist or even Christian. We’re a secular country without any state religion and that’s unlikely to change soon.

I agree there are aspects of Islam that have no place in the modern world but the same could be said for most other religions.

Thanks again for your post.

One kiwi to another; you're a nicer man than me. These kinds of comments, often based on mis-information about Islam, annoy the living bejesus out of me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Right of religion: I am an atheist Hindu. What do they want? Right to accept falsehood of various shades?
Right to marry a person of choice: Make the choice in your own religion. Is there any shortage of people in that religion? Why destabilize demography? That leads to conflicts.
Treason: Why should it not be a crime? Otherwise what the need of having separate countries? Every country works for its own economic advantage. It has its own culture and traditions. Every country has friends and foes because of that. Go away to the place which suits you. But do not go against your country if you derive benefits from it.

One kiwi to another; you're a nicer man than me. These kinds of comments, often based on mis-information about Islam, annoy the living bejesus out of me.

New Zealand has 1% Muslim population. France has 12.5%. India has 15%. Adrian is a Bahai. They hope to increase their numbers from all religions. That is why he is goody-goody to all. Various sales strategies.

 

[Earthling]

So why do you let it happen to you? To me in the discussion i had with you now, you seem to be very scard of Islam and Muslims, that is something i find strange

You find xenophobia strange? You must live in a multicultural society. Don't they have CNN where you come from? We Americans are polarized. Fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right. It's a simple life.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You find xenophobia strange? You must live in a multicultural society. Don't they have CNN where you come from? We Americans are polarized. Fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right. It's a simple life.

I do not watch television. And yes Norway has become multicultural, and i see people from different cultures and religion as a good thing, not a bad thing

 

[Dawnofhope]

One kiwi to another; you're a nicer man than me. These kinds of comments, often based on mis-information about Islam, annoy the living bejesus out of me.

Kia ora @kiwimac
Fantastic to see another Kiwi on the forum. I have come to see the massacre of 50 of my Muslim brothers and sisters as an opportunity for us all to become better people and reach across the barriers of race and sectarianism to become united in our diversity. We each have capacity to take steps towards that goal, each according to his capacity.
Nga Mihi
Adrian

 

[Earthling]

I do not watch television. And yes Norway has become multicultural, and i see people from different cultures and religion as a good thing, not a bad thing

Good for you. I was sort of making a joke at my country's expense. In theory we think that is a good thing, but in practice, if you listen to mainstream media, which you shouldn't, we don't practice that particular brand of wisdom.

 

[Lyndon]

Both my parents used to live in NZ, my dad just told me he discovered the Linwood mosque where the second shooting occurred is converted from a school he used to attend in Christchurch, the same buildings, small world.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Good for you. I was sort of making a joke at my country's expense. In theory we think that is a good thing, but in practice, if you listen to mainstream media, which you shouldn't, we don't practice that particular brand of wisdom.

I hold no hate toward any human being or other bengs for that matter. and i find truth in every religions, so there is no longer a need to "promote" Buddhism as the only true path. Yes Buddhism is the path i choose, but it might not be right for everyone

 

[icehorse]

Have you read any? Compare it with Buddhism. All UDHR wants is to break traditions in favor of Christianity.

Perhaps. Is Buddhism misogynistic? Is it theocratic? Is it anti-semetic? Is it homophobic?

 

[icehorse]

Reform who? and who's Islam? from what? and to what? You speak on vague authoritative terms that could be applied to anything someone doesn't like.

Defenders of Islam like to paint this set ideas as if they are somehow simultaneously defensible, and yet ineffable, that's nonsense. I'll grant you that Islamic thinking has many, many variations. That said, there are also some common ideas and attitudes that Muslims across many cultures and regions share. So, Islam is OFTEN misogynistic, and OFTEN homophobic, and OFTEN theocratic, and OFTEN anti-semitic, and so on.

In a world headed towards 10 billion people, and with weapons of extraordinary power, those values are a recipe for disaster. Now to be fair, other religions are also problematic and capitalism is problematic and so on. But THIS thread is about Muslims.