Suppose today, God sends a Savior

[sayak83]

There are many countries that their people are going through difficult times now. Either war, poverty or tyranny.

Regardless if these people believe in God or Not, surely they wish, someone saves them from these oppression, difficulties, poverty or tyranny.
By Savior I mean someone who comes and solves their problems, so, They may have a comfortable, and fair and happy life.

This is what they wish for, if they are under difficult and terrible times!

Now, assume, there is God. The God wants to choose the best person among them, someone who is the kindest, the wisest. A trustworthy person who can be His Messenger, so, He can show them the right way of life, and solve their problems practically, so their poverty may turn to prosperity, and their injustice may turn to justice, and their wars may turn to peace.

So, this Person comes and announces to them, that God has chosen Him for this purpose.

How would different people respond to Him?

Some of them, don't even bother, because they don't believe in God or Messengers.
Some others say, we already have a religion, and we know you are a liar, and want to trick us.
Some others, come and say, we don't believe you, unless you show us miracles. Split the moon, as our messenger did before if you are truly a Messenger of God.
Others say, we already have an awaited Savior who will come at the End Time and takes us to Heaven, and we know you are a liar. But if you can resurrect our forefathers that we may see your miracles, that would be good. (Knowing He won't, and by this they just want to find excuse for rejection).

He says, my job is not to show you miracles, but I have some good teachings and guidance, that if you just listen and try, all your problems will be solved, and you will live in peace and happiness.

They say, well, we can write a book too, even better than what you can write. In fact we already have many books that we believe in them.

Of course, a minority believe Him, and follow, but when the Leaders of the country sees this, they think this new person and his followers are a threat to their authority and power, and start plotting against this group, so they may be destroyed.


Now isn't this, a true story of humanity?
Read Surrah of Hud, in Quran. Isn't this story what this Surrah is all about?

If a person supposedly picked by God cannot even provide the basic evidence that shows that he has powers and knowledge that no other human can have, then he should be rightfully rejected.
The story of humanity in regards to religion is a plethora of people who (for various good or bad reasons) claimed to have messages from God when in fact they were simply their own creations.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There are many countries that their people are going through difficult times now. Either war, poverty or tyranny.

Regardless if these people believe in God or Not, surely they wish, someone saves them from these oppression, difficulties, poverty or tyranny.
By Savior I mean someone who comes and solves their problems, so, They may have a comfortable, and fair and happy life.

This is what they wish for, if they are under difficult and terrible times!

Now, assume, there is God. The God wants to choose the best person among them, someone who is the kindest, the wisest. A trustworthy person who can be His Messenger, so, He can show them the right way of life, and solve their problems practically, so their poverty may turn to prosperity, and their injustice may turn to justice, and their wars may turn to peace.

So, this Person comes and announces to them, that God has chosen Him for this purpose.

How would different people respond to Him?

This doesn't really sound realistic.
Let's take present day Russia, North Korea, Afghanistan,... or any other such hellhole in the grips of powerful tyranny and poverty.

How is one human without special powers going to solve that with mere words and messages?

The supposed "miracle worker jesus", who was even supposed to be god himself, couldn't manage to get rid of poverty, tyranny and wars... so why would anyone else be able to?

Some of them, don't even bother, because they don't believe in God or Messengers.
Some others say, we already have a religion, and we know you are a liar, and want to trick us.
Some others, come and say, we don't believe you, unless you show us miracles. Split the moon, as our messenger did before if you are truly a Messenger of God.

Ow? Did that supposed messenger that supposedly split the moon manage to end poverty, wars and tyranny? Have you been to the middle east recently?
Tell me, which country there comes even close to this utopian picture you are painting?

Seems to me that pretty much all of them have problems with upholding basic human rights, are poverty stricken, are involved in (civil) wars and civil unrest, are ruled by tyrants, oppression etc etc.

In fact........ it seems the countries in that region are among the worst to live in, in the entire world.

He says, my job is not to show you miracles, but I have some good teachings and guidance, that if you just listen and try, all your problems will be solved, and you will live in peace and happiness.

Again, how is that supposed to work?
How is any teaching and guidance going to magically change the countries they live in?

Isn't it, btw, also a bit curious that currently the BEST countries to live in (as in: where you as a citizens have the BEST chances of living a peaceful and secure life where you can also prosper regardless of your skin color, sexual orientation, religious background, etc) are actually countries that have freed themselves from the shackles of dogmatic religious, or otherwise ideological, belief systems? ie: secular democracies?

So really, looking at the nations of world and the history thereof... it seems to me that such "messengers" usually only make matters WORSE.

 

[DharmaCatLamp]

There are many countries that their people are going through difficult times now. Either war, poverty or tyranny.

Regardless if these people believe in God or Not, surely they wish, someone saves them from these oppression, difficulties, poverty or tyranny.
By Savior I mean someone who comes and solves their problems, so, They may have a comfortable, and fair and happy life.

This is what they wish for, if they are under difficult and terrible times!

Now, assume, there is God. The God wants to choose the best person among them, someone who is the kindest, the wisest. A trustworthy person who can be His Messenger, so, He can show them the right way of life, and solve their problems practically, so their poverty may turn to prosperity, and their injustice may turn to justice, and their wars may turn to peace.

So, this Person comes and announces to them, that God has chosen Him for this purpose.

How would different people respond to Him?

Some of them, don't even bother, because they don't believe in God or Messengers.
Some others say, we already have a religion, and we know you are a liar, and want to trick us.
Some others, come and say, we don't believe you, unless you show us miracles. Split the moon, as our messenger did before if you are truly a Messenger of God.
Others say, we already have an awaited Savior who will come at the End Time and takes us to Heaven, and we know you are a liar. But if you can resurrect our forefathers that we may see your miracles, that would be good. (Knowing He won't, and by this they just want to find excuse for rejection).

He says, my job is not to show you miracles, but I have some good teachings and guidance, that if you just listen and try, all your problems will be solved, and you will live in peace and happiness.

They say, well, we can write a book too, even better than what you can write. In fact we already have many books that we believe in them.

Of course, a minority believe Him, and follow, but when the Leaders of the country sees this, they think this new person and his followers are a threat to their authority and power, and start plotting against this group, so they may be destroyed.


Now isn't this, a true story of humanity?
Read Surrah of Hud, in Quran. Isn't this story what this Surrah is all about?

Well I am unsure if God would need to choose the kindest and the wisest person to be a prophet. We typically have examples of people from the bible for instance who are not chosen because they are the wisest or anything like that. Moses for instance isn't exactly the prime candidate for prophecy when you think about it. He is ill tempered, murdered a guy, has a difficult time speaking etc. Why not make Aaron a prophet instead?

The Divine chooses whomever the divine chooses.

Since you mention the Quran I guess I might also say that Muhammad doesn't really have a perfect character. We are talking about a man who had slaves, fought in combat and participated in raids. Now we could argue whether or not some of that was needed of the time or whether or not it was justified but I just think the man wasn't perfect.

I suppose the thing that prevents me from embracing Muhammad in the same way I have embraced Jesus or RamaKrishna is that a lot of things he seems to do for convenience. The man has his time and place and we could say that thanks to him we have had tremendous leaps forwards in spirituality. Without him we wouldn't have so many of the Sufi orders I love or the great theologians of Islam.

But as an example of what I am talking about
Narrated Abd-Allah ibn Umar: Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza fought (against the Prophet violating their peace treaty), so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them till they fought against the Prophet again). He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Banu Qaynuqa, the tribe of Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362

We could argue whether or not this was needed at the time but it strikes me that this seems much more like the actions of political leaders rather than the actions of a perfect man / prophet.

I might also argue that if you are talking about Muhammad in this story one has to think about what happened to the Muslim community after Muhammad died. In less than a year there was a conflict over the rights of succession. You say if you follow all of his teachings then you will live in peace and happiness but it seems that even the closest companions of the prophet very quickly became bickering rivals.

I guess to me Muhammad has a lot of spiritual insights and there is a decent bit we can learn from him but to act like he is the most perfect man ever with the perfect teachings of the divine just feels a bit silly to me. Worthy of study and admiration? Sure! Perfect example forever and ever? Maybe not so much.

 

[Heyo]

The Messengers reliably provide what humans need and they never fail. It is the humans who fail to recognize the Messengers and follow their instructions.

Wouldn't a messenger from a god know how to convince people? Wouldn't the (few) followers of the messenger be exceptionally successful and thus convince other by example?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's been a dismal failure. Is this the best the divine forces can do?

Messengers are so unreliable that it's more believable that it is flawed humans claiming to be influenced by divinity.

Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide?

Is that a realistic expectation?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide?

Is that a realistic expectation?

IMO, if you're assuming that God would try to spread his message to humanity by "messengers," then realistic is already out the window.

But why do you think it would be unrealistic for God to want to fit his own mistakes?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

IMO, if you're assuming that God would try to spread his message to humanity by "messengers," then realistic is already out the window.

I am just curious why you see that is unrealistic?

But why do you think it would be unrealistic for God to want to fit his own mistakes?

I am not sure how one concludes God had mistakes.

 

[wellwisher]

There are many countries that their people are going through difficult times now. Either war, poverty or tyranny.

Regardless if these people believe in God or Not, surely they wish, someone saves them from these oppression, difficulties, poverty or tyranny.
By Savior I mean someone who comes and solves their problems, so, They may have a comfortable, and fair and happy life.

This is what they wish for, if they are under difficult and terrible times!

Now, assume, there is God. The God wants to choose the best person among them, someone who is the kindest, the wisest. A trustworthy person who can be His Messenger, so, He can show them the right way of life, and solve their problems practically, so their poverty may turn to prosperity, and their injustice may turn to justice, and their wars may turn to peace.

So, this Person comes and announces to them, that God has chosen Him for this purpose.

How would different people respond to Him?

Some of them, don't even bother, because they don't believe in God or Messengers.
Some others say, we already have a religion, and we know you are a liar, and want to trick us.
Some others, come and say, we don't believe you, unless you show us miracles. Split the moon, as our messenger did before if you are truly a Messenger of God.
Others say, we already have an awaited Savior who will come at the End Time and takes us to Heaven, and we know you are a liar. But if you can resurrect our forefathers that we may see your miracles, that would be good. (Knowing He won't, and by this they just want to find excuse for rejection).

He says, my job is not to show you miracles, but I have some good teachings and guidance, that if you just listen and try, all your problems will be solved, and you will live in peace and happiness.

They say, well, we can write a book too, even better than what you can write. In fact we already have many books that we believe in them.

Of course, a minority believe Him, and follow, but when the Leaders of the country sees this, they think this new person and his followers are a threat to their authority and power, and start plotting against this group, so they may be destroyed.


Now isn't this, a true story of humanity?
Read Surrah of Hud, in Quran. Isn't this story what this Surrah is all about?

A Messiah could help unify the people, by simply pointing out that there are good people and bad people from all races, sexes, religions, political parties, etc. The dividing line to make the world better, is not Left or Right, Young or Old, Black or White, male or female, heterosexual or homosexual, etc., but good and evil. All these diversity divisions within culture, are composed of both good and evil people. It is not the good people; people of good and sound character, from any of these groups, who are the problem. The good people from all the groups sincerely want to help and try to do good. But since they are polarized, in shallow ways; diversity clan, they have to team up with their own evil twin.

For example, say we go to each diversity group; religion, politics, race, sexual orientation, country, etc., etc., etc. We then have all the people who like to lie and deceive, go to one side of the room. Next, all the people who everyone knows are very honest, but not perfect, to the other side. Which side of each room for each group is more trustworthy? Which would have the best chance for making peace on earth?

Diversity is a distraction, for the ego, away from the good and evil polarization of humanity. All these groups combine the most optimized humans; good, with the least optimized, so there is never the goal of peace, for any group. One is busy fighting for their clan, against their opponents; alter ego clan; the good of the side becomes your enemy. This creates cover for all the evil members, of both sides, who can be useful to each side, if the goal is power or money for defense or offense.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am just curious why you see that is unrealistic?

Even if we take as given the existence of God, sending "messengers" seems like a remarkably error-prone and unreliable way for God to disseminate his message. It does not strike me as a method that any God who actually cares about communicating a message to all of humanity would ever use.

OTOH, it does strike me as quite consistent with a charlatan - or sincere but mentally ill person - trying to convince people that he talks to God.

I am not sure how one concludes God had mistakes.

God's creation reflects on God.

If God were to exist and have created humanity, then if people did not follow "messengers," it could only be because God chose to predispose those people not to follow "messengers."

If you're saying that there's something wrong with these people, then you're effectively saying that there's something wrong with God's creation, and by extension that there's something wrong with God himself.

 

[F1fan]

Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide?

Is that a realistic expectation?

That is up to the theists who describe their Gods. The Abrahamic version is complex since the OT version of God differs greatly from the NT version. And then you have the Quran's version of God. So there is a lot of contradictory bits that theists can select and use in their claims, and ignore the bits that don't back up what they are claiming.

To your point, if humans are a disappointment to God and not worth helping, why did God create humans the way he did? What have children who develop cancers do to deserve that? If you were God would you stand by and watch a child suffer and die while you could perform a miracle at any time?

Theists have adoted the Gods they have, and if you are a Christian you have little choice but to work with the tri-omni God that has all the power in the universe but will allow nature to run its course on a world he created. You can't deny that the creator is accountable for the existence of cancers, deadly virus and bacteria, birth defects, etc. All that exists falls on the desk of the Creator, no blame can be spread around to other actors, like devils, because God created them too.

Believers seem to have adoted a set of frameworks and beliefs that they have not scrutinized, and are stuck with them in these debates. I don;t envy the position you theists are in as you try to defend the rationality of these beliefs and claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wouldn't a messenger from a god know how to convince people? Wouldn't the (few) followers of the messenger be exceptionally successful and thus convince other by example?

I think he would know how to convince people if that was his intention.
I don't know about the other Messengers, but convincing people was not what Baha'u'llah came to do. His mission from God was to garner a few followers, proclaim who He was to the kings and rulers and religious leaders of His time, and write His many Tablets.

In His Tablets, Baha'u'llah instructed the Baha'is to teach the Faith so that was His expectation.

I don't know how many people can be convinced by example because it takes a lot of time to get to know people on a personal level.

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has not always been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since the year 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century. Baha'is are still supposed to teach the Faith but I don't think there is enough emphasis on this by the Baha'i administration.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There are many countries that their people are going through difficult times now. Either war, poverty or tyranny.

Regardless if these people believe in God or Not, surely they wish, someone saves them from these oppression, difficulties, poverty or tyranny.
By Savior I mean someone who comes and solves their problems, so, They may have a comfortable, and fair and happy life.

This is what they wish for, if they are under difficult and terrible times!

Now, assume, there is God. The God wants to choose the best person among them, someone who is the kindest, the wisest. A trustworthy person who can be His Messenger, so, He can show them the right way of life, and solve their problems practically, so their poverty may turn to prosperity, and their injustice may turn to justice, and their wars may turn to peace.

So, this Person comes and announces to them, that God has chosen Him for this purpose.

How would different people respond to Him?

Some of them, don't even bother, because they don't believe in God or Messengers.
Some others say, we already have a religion, and we know you are a liar, and want to trick us.
Some others, come and say, we don't believe you, unless you show us miracles. Split the moon, as our messenger did before if you are truly a Messenger of God.
Others say, we already have an awaited Savior who will come at the End Time and takes us to Heaven, and we know you are a liar. But if you can resurrect our forefathers that we may see your miracles, that would be good. (Knowing He won't, and by this they just want to find excuse for rejection).

He says, my job is not to show you miracles, but I have some good teachings and guidance, that if you just listen and try, all your problems will be solved, and you will live in peace and happiness.

They say, well, we can write a book too, even better than what you can write. In fact we already have many books that we believe in them.

Of course, a minority believe Him, and follow, but when the Leaders of the country sees this, they think this new person and his followers are a threat to their authority and power, and start plotting against this group, so they may be destroyed.


Now isn't this, a true story of humanity?
Read Surrah of Hud, in Quran. Isn't this story what this Surrah is all about?

I'd rather deal with the issues in a practical direct manner. Wishful thinking is nice , makes you feel better, but not very useful for reality.

 

[Heyo]

I think he would know how to convince people if that was his intention.
I don't know about the other Messengers, but convincing people was not what Baha'u'llah came to do. His mission from God was to garner a few followers, proclaim who He was to the kings and rulers and religious leaders of His time, and write His many Tablets.

In His Tablets, Baha'u'llah instructed the Baha'is to teach the Faith so that was His expectation.

I don't know how many people can be convinced by example because it takes a lot of time to get to know people on a personal level.

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has not always been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since the year 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century. Baha'is are still supposed to teach the Faith but I don't think there is enough emphasis on this by the Baha'i administration.

So your answer to @InvestigateTruth's hypothetical is "nothing would happen today and little for the next 200 or 2000 years but something will happen eventually"?

 

[Trailblazer]

So your answer to @InvestigateTruth's hypothetical is "nothing would happen today and little for the next 200 or 2000 years but something will happen eventually"?

My answer is that it will happen little by little, over the course of time. Nobody knows how long it will take, nobody but God.