Surah 3:85 - Who does Muhammad (PBUH) claim to have lost all spiritual good in the hereafter?

[Dawnofhope]

This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

 

[Link]

Imam Ali (a) said something true. If truth was presented purely as is, no one would reject it. And if falsehood purely as is, no one would follow it.

As long as a human seeks to truth and wants to follow it, he is not a disbeliever. It's when they become rebellious towards the truth to some degree, they are disbelievers.

Keep in mind, people of the book believed miracles are proof. So if Mohammad (s) was doing miracles, and people rejecting, they are inconsistent with even their own religion and are rejecting what would be proof of Moses or Jesus for example (peace be upon them).

A lot of Quran is about how truth is way apparent when miracles are shown, but when humans are not ready for it, they often rebel.

However, Quran said when you travel in the earth, not to say to other humans "you aren't a believer" and also there is the concept of those without power to reject faith or accept it. Also, those who await God's judgment and are neither considered good or evil yet.

Submission here doesn't refer to what is known as Islam today. And it's not the only title for the religion of truth in the Quran, it's been called different titles, and the people of truth different titles aside from submitters.

That said, religion is vitally important with present proofs and miracles, and becomes nearly impossible to know original teachings and truth without miracles. This is why you have as much different type of Muslims as almost there is possible ways of perceiving Quran rational or non-rational, contradictory or non-contradictory way.

Whoever reads this verse, and equates their scholars and leaders with Mohammad (s) - and thinks submitting to their sect or their sect's religious leaders that are not appointed by God, and think that is now submission to God, is a fool.

Without a present leader among us, we are prone to falsehood, all of us, except a few who God saves. You can't expect people to know the religion as Mohammad (s) knew it, he is not present to defend himself and tell you what he truly taught.

Till the Mahdi (a) comes back, most people are what is termed in hadiths, orphans of the family of Mohammad (s), they are without their Leader (spiritual father), and so we are to forbear and have compassion for them, and show them the means to guidance and this hard, because even explaining why miracles and leader is not out in the open, is hard to explain,

But Quran does explain why, but it's all conditional prophecies.

This is why you Prophecies regarding the Mahdi often contradict each other. Because they are in context of different verses in context of different Surahs and those all are projecting possible futures and prophecies.

And Bahais are right and Ahmadis too that we need another Messenger. What Bahais are not right about however, is that Quran is not sufficient. The Quran was revealed over a period of time and when the Sunnah and how each verse was revealed and in which place and time, and dynamic way Quran was built was lost, the truth was lost.

The Quran of Ali (a) has the exact time of each verse was revealed. Today we can put this into an app and see how Quran was dynamically built. And so the Sunnah can be easily manifested and studied, and the light it shines on the Quran, will happen.

And people will come to know the truth, it will become apparent, the way the Quran was revealed over 23 years. Not this heedless recitation we do now, trying to get to the end as fast possible, as if Quran was revealed in haste.

Imam Mahdi (a) is going to be a Messenger but his message is the Sunnah and reviving the religion and knowledge, and will make relevant to our times. He is not a Nabi, so there won't be a revelation.

And revelations are not that useful anyways. Quran is not that useful not because it's outdated, like Bahais say, it's because we are without an Imam in the open, and this is expected by Quran, as per it's teachings, when miracles are not out in the open and no one is sent with such signs, nothing prevented God at doing so in any period of time, but it was due to first ones rejecting them.

And this is why the Mahdi (a) is hidden, it's because of history. And God knows when we will be ready to receive him and accept the miracles. But this means we are inheriting generations of disbelief and rebellion type culture. We don't even talk about miracles with respect to the Mahdi and act like it's normal miracles are not out in the open. It's not normal there not be miracles in the open per Quran, but rather, nothing prevents God from sending them in any time - but that the first ones rejected them.

 

[sun rise]

Submission here doesn't refer to what is known as Islam today.

I found that echoed in this exegesis:

Here the claim is that while verse 2:62 says that some Jews and Christians will be rewarded, this was abrogated by 3:85 which states that all who are not Muslim will end up in hell.

The misunderstanding and poor interpretation here stems from their lack of understanding of the word Islam (Submission). In spite of the fact that God tells us in the Quran that Islam (Submission to God Alone) is as old as Abraham who was the first Muslim (see 2:128, 2:131, 2:133) and who was the first to name us Muslims (22:78), still the Muslim scholars today insist that Islam is confined to being the religion of the Quran !!!

By creating such a false statement, the Muslim scholars claim to be the custodians of the message! In 3:67 God specifically tells us that Abraham was neither Jewish nor Christian, but a monotheist Muslim. God also tells us in 5:111 that Jesus and the Disciples were Muslim. In 27:44 tells us that Solomon was Muslim and in 5:44 we are told of all the prophets who were given the Torah and who were all Muslim.

What all these verses are confirming is that there are Muslims who followed the Torah and the Bible and who knew nothing of the Quran. These Muslims were submitters to God Alone , Lord of the universe.

In effect the religion of Islam which was originally founded by Abraham can be found, not only in the Quran, but also in the Torah and the Bible. After all we are told that all the foundations of the religion, and which Muslims call the pillars of Islam were first given to Abraham.

The Quran confirms the true meaning of a Muslim, as being he who submits to God Alone and obeys the law of God Alone, and should not be confined to he who follows the Quran.

Those among the Christians who believe in the Oneness of God and who do not worship Jesus are Muslim in the sight of God. Similarly those among any other religion who submit to God Alone and who set up no idols to partner Almighty God are Muslim in the sight of God.

All these have their recompense from their Lord and have nothing to fear (2:62). These people are also the subject of 3:85 since they chose to be Muslim (submitters) to God. They could be Muslim submitters, Jewish submitters, Christian submitters …..etc.

Consequently, there is no contradiction between 2:62 and 3:85

 

[sun rise]

Another point is to be very careful about translations. I zero knowledge of Quranic Arabic, but I do look at various translations to compare/contrast because I do know that translations are often not perfect

WebQT - ©2003-2018 Submission.org - note "Submission" versus Islam (submission to God), "Surrender (to Allah (Arabic for God))" and "surrender as a system".

Khalifa
Anyone who accepts other than Submission as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.
Yusuf Ali
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Pickthal
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
Shakir
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
Sher Ali
And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he shall be among the losers.
"Progressive Muslims"
And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

 

[Mike.Hester]

Abdullah Yusuf Ali - Wikipedia He was an Islamic apologist attempting to mitigate the severity of the Koran. I think the 1925 Taskent or older Korans are more accurate Quran translations - Wikipedia

 

[Shia Islam]

This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

According to Islam, we believe in the previous prophets, however, we take our teachings from the Quran and from the sayings of prophet Muhammad and the appointed Imams. We don't take our religion from the distorted scriptures.

Also, keep in mind that some of the rules in the ancients scriptures (before Quran) were for the people of that time, and were overwritten by Islam.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

...
So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

This is why, Muslims believe that the Bahai Faith is not acceptable because, only Islam is acceptable. That is understandable to me.
To be on the safe side, it makes sense to stick with Islam.

 

[Link]

This is why, Muslims believe that the Bahai Faith is not acceptable because, only Islam is acceptable. That is understandable to me.
To be on the safe side, it makes sense to stick with Islam.

Lol that has nothing to do with why I don't accept Bahaism but I can't speak for other Muslims, but maybe you did some sort of poll and know haha.

 

[Link]

Also, keep in mind that some of the rules in the ancients scriptures (before Quran) were for the people of that time, and were overwritten by Islam.

Is there any rule that is forever over-written? Maybe some principles remain forever, but there is no universal forever rules in God's religion over all with some minority exceptions. The Imams (a) say verses abrogate other verses (situational) and like wise Sunnah abrogates Sunnah. God has clearly explained what we know is good to be allowed and what is forbidden is what we know to be evil. Imam Ali (a) in Nahjul Balagha says, "for he has not forbidden what you don't know to be evil nor has he commanded you to what you don't know to be good".

It's all situational, all rules, there is no rule that has no exception to it. Even Shirk is forgiven under certain conditions despite Quran saying he never forgives Shirk, The Quran all it's verses have a place, time, situation, and contextualize each other.

All of the Shariah and Sunnah is in Quran, in some form, but we don't perceive.

If you really believe Zakat is going to remain 1/40 wealth to all humans, when Imam Mahdi (a) comes, equal tax to poor and rich, you truly have not understand Quran and it's purpose at that point.

So much more to be said about this, but the context of "Sunnah abrogates Sunnah" was a question, to one of the Imams (a) that previous Imams (a) said something contrary to him, and he said that.

I will make a topic about this. Of course, that is not to say we whimsically choose the Shariah, indeed Quran and Sunnah is meant to be adhered to as light and insights from it to be sought and the proofs of every justice including every human right is in Quran and Sunnah.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for dropping by @Link

This verse was raised by a non-Muslim in another thread and yesterday I had a long talk to a Muslim friend. So its useful on a forum such as this to examine a few Quranic verses and consider its meaning.

Imam Ali (a) said something true. If truth was presented purely as is, no one would reject it. And if falsehood purely as is, no one would follow it.

As long as a human seeks to truth and wants to follow it, he is not a disbeliever. It's when they become rebellious towards the truth to some degree, they are disbelievers.

I like that and agree.

Keep in mind, people of the book believed miracles are proof. So if Mohammad (s) was doing miracles, and people rejecting, they are inconsistent with even their own religion and are rejecting what would be proof of Moses or Jesus for example (peace be upon them).

A lot of Quran is about how truth is way apparent when miracles are shown, but when humans are not ready for it, they often rebel.

I don't talk to many Muslims as they make up just 1% of the population here and I grew up Christian. Its apparent that Christians spend far too much time emphasising and trying to prove miracles. I suspect for many of us there is this moment or period in time the Christians talk about "seeing the light" or being "born again". Its that epiphany where Jesus and what He taught is clear as the noon day sun, For some Christians they want to sacrifice everything for Him. The enthusiasm is great but can also lead to being zealous and fundamentalist if it isn't tempered with wisdom that comes from experience. I suspect it is the same for many Muslims. It was for my friend.

In the early part of one's spiritual journey miracles are experienced but at some point we need to move beyond that and develop a mature faith. I had dreams and visions when I first became a Baha'i but that was a long time ago. As you are no doubt aware the Baha'i writings tend to de-emphasise miracles as proofs. That does mean miracles don't happen but they are only proofs to those who experience them.

However, Quran said when you travel in the earth, not to say to other humans "you aren't a believer" and also there is the concept of those without power to reject faith or accept it. Also, those who await God's judgment and are neither considered good or evil yet.

Sure.

Submission here doesn't refer to what is known as Islam today. And it's not the only title for the religion of truth in the Quran, it's been called different titles, and the people of truth different titles aside from submitters.

Agreed.

That said, religion is vitally important with present proofs and miracles, and becomes nearly impossible to know original teachings and truth without miracles. This is why you have as much different type of Muslims as almost there is possible ways of perceiving Quran rational or non-rational, contradictory or non-contradictory way.

There are various movements in Christianity as there are in Islam to return to the 'original' teachings and recapture the purity and essence that was there in the beginning. All such efforts are remarkable only to the extent the fall well short of expectation. The Quran as with the Gospel and Torah were Revealed in circumstances that are entirely different from those of the modern world. The original teachings were responses in part to those historic circumstances. In some ways the Revelation is inseparable from the circumstance it arose. The verse in question is a prime example. It appears to be a criticism of the path of paganism followed by Muhammad's adversaries who pursued the Muslims to Medina so as to destroy them. Trying to use the verse in a modern context to 'non-Muslims' just annoys people.

Whoever reads this verse, and equates their scholars and leaders with Mohammad (s) - and thinks submitting to their sect or their sect's religious leaders that are not appointed by God, and think that is now submission to God, is a fool.

You are probably right.

Without a present leader among us, we are prone to falsehood, all of us, except a few who God saves. You can't expect people to know the religion as Mohammad (s) knew it, he is not present to defend himself and tell you what he truly taught.

Having an authorised leader is hugely important, I agree.

Till the Mahdi (a) comes back, most people are what is termed in hadiths, orphans of the family of Mohammad (s), they are without their Leader (spiritual father), and so we are to forbear and have compassion for them, and show them the means to guidance and this hard, because even explaining why miracles and leader is not out in the open, is hard to explain,

All the best waiting for the Mahdi to return.

But Quran does explain why, but it's all conditional prophecies.

This is why you Prophecies regarding the Mahdi often contradict each other. Because they are in context of different verses in context of different Surahs and those all are projecting possible futures and prophecies.

You'll need to talk to a Baha'i from a Muslim background to dissect the prophecies. Prophecies are really there to distinguish the pure in heart from those who are attached to the world.

And Bahais are right and Ahmadis too that we need another Messenger. What Bahais are not right about however, is that Quran is not sufficient. The Quran was revealed over a period of time and when the Sunnah and how each verse was revealed and in which place and time, and dynamic way Quran was built was lost, the truth was lost.

The Quran of Ali (a) has the exact time of each verse was revealed. Today we can put this into an app and see how Quran was dynamically built. And so the Sunnah can be easily manifested and studied, and the light it shines on the Quran, will happen.

If that works for you. For this thread I'm interested in Muhammad's words and what He meant. It seems clear enough. If you have investigated the Baha'i Faith and discovered it is not for you that is entirely your prerogative. Whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not we will both know of a certainty in the world to come.

And people will come to know the truth, it will become apparent, the way the Quran was revealed over 23 years. Not this heedless recitation we do now, trying to get to the end as fast possible, as if Quran was revealed in haste.

Imam Mahdi (a) is going to be a Messenger but his message is the Sunnah and reviving the religion and knowledge, and will make relevant to our times. He is not a Nabi, so there won't be a revelation.

Once again, those are the specifics of how you view the Prophecies. All the best with that.

And revelations are not that useful anyways. Quran is not that useful not because it's outdated, like Bahais say, it's because we are without an Imam in the open, and this is expected by Quran, as per it's teachings, when miracles are not out in the open and no one is sent with such signs, nothing prevented God at doing so in any period of time, but it was due to first ones rejecting them.

And this is why the Mahdi (a) is hidden, it's because of history. And God knows when we will be ready to receive him and accept the miracles. But this means we are inheriting generations of disbelief and rebellion type culture. We don't even talk about miracles with respect to the Mahdi and act like it's normal miracles are not out in the open. It's not normal there not be miracles in the open per Quran, but rather, nothing prevents God from sending them in any time - but that the first ones rejected them.

All the best with finding the Promised Madhi. Thanks again for dropping by.

 

[Duncan]

This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Hello brother, hope you are doing well, Just to clarify one thing Bahai are not Muslim, they actually not even considered a sect of Islam, they have nothing to do with the Quran.

3:84-85

I am very familiar with the verse, Allah explain the status of faith so that this serves for them as an indication to faith, saying: (Say) O Muhammad: (We believe in Allah) alone without any partner (and that which is revealed unto us) and in that which the Quran has revealed to us (and that which was revealed unto Abraham) and we believe in Abraham and his Scripture (and Ishmael) and his Scripture (and Isaac) and his Scripture (and Jacob) and his Scripture (and the tribes) the Children of Jacob and their scriptures, (and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses) and we believe in Moses and his Scripture (and Jesus) and his Scripture (and the Prophets) and we believe in all the prophets and their scriptures (from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them) we do not disbelieve in any of the prophets; it is also said this means: we do not disassociate any one of them from Allah in relation to prophethood and Islam, (and unto Him we have surrendered) we acknowledge His worship and divine Oneness and we are sincere to him in Religion.

We believe that all the prophets sent by Allah were Muslims, because Islam means submission to Allah alone, the final messenger was Muhammed peace be upon him sent to all mankind, so we follow his way of life, his saying.

The verse that follow explain that whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter he will be among the duped because he will miss Paradise and all that is in it and dwell in hell with all that is in it.

Now who are the greatest loser ? I m going to quote a verse in the Quran, Allah says in Chapter Al Kahf

“Say, [O Muhammad], “Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?” (18:103)

“[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work.” (18:104)

“Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.” (18:105)

The most unsuccessful people are those who confined all their endeavors to the worldly life. That is, whatever they did, they did for this world without paying any regard to Allah and the Hereafter. As they considered the worldly life to be the real life, they made the success and prosperity in this world their sole aim and object. Even if they professed the existence of Allah, they never paid any heed to the two implications of this profession: to lead their lives in a way to please Allah and to come out successful on the Day they shall have to render an account of what they did in this world. This was because they considered themselves to be mere rational animals who were absolutely independent and free from every kind of responsibility and had nothing else to do but to enjoy the good things of the world like animals in a meadow.

“All their deeds were lost” in the sense that they will be of no avail to them in the life-after-death, even though they might have considered them as their great achievements but the fact is that they will lose all their value as soon as the world shall come to an end. When they will go before their Lord, and all their deeds shall be placed in the Scales, they will have no weight at all whether they had built great palaces, established great universities and libraries, set up great factories and laboratories, constructed highways and railways, in short, all their inventions, industries, sciences and arts and other things of which they were very proud in this world, will lose their weights in the Scales. The only thing which will have weight there will be that which had been done in accordance with the Divine instructions and with the intention to please Allah. It is, therefore, obvious that if all of one’s endeavors were confined to the worldly things and the achievement of worldly desires whose results one would see in this world, one should not reasonably expect to see their results in the Hereafter, for they would have gone waste with the end of this world. It is equally obvious, that only the deeds of the one, who performed them strictly in accordance with His instructions to win His approval with a view to avail of their results in the Hereafter, will find that his deeds had weight in the Scales. On the contrary, such a one will find that all his endeavors in the world had gone waste.

The attributes of the losers are found in many chapters in the Quran, please feel free to ask I would be more than pleased to provide you with a sincere reply

 

[Dawnofhope]

Abdullah Yusuf Ali - Wikipedia He was an Islamic apologist attempting to mitigate the severity of the Koran. I think the 1925 Taskent or older Korans are more accurate Quran translations - Wikipedia

Some of the older translations were completed by Christian clergy with a likely agenda to discredit Islam. It makes sense for the Quran to be translated by a well respected scholar amongst both Muslims and an English speaking audience. Such a person is more likely to capture the spirit and essence of the Quran as well as accurately portray the intent of the original Arabic.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is why, Muslims believe that the Bahai Faith is not acceptable because, only Islam is acceptable. That is understandable to me.
To be on the safe side, it makes sense to stick with Islam.

My intent with this thread was to better understand the meaning of these verses. I suspect there is a parallel with John 14:6 in Christianity that is frequently used by apologists to deny the validity of other religions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hello brother, hope you are doing well, Just to clarify one thing Bahai are not Muslim, they actually not even considered a sect of Islam, they have nothing to do with the Quran.

Thanks for your contribution to this thread and I entirely agree with your exegesis. Its good to have Muslims on the forum such as yourself that can provide a rational and moderate voice for Islam.

I have invited comments from anyone who has respect for the Quran including some Christians and Baha’is who like the Muslims believe the Quran to be the Word of God. The Baha’is are of course an independent religion that emerged from Islam during the nineteenth century Persia amidst widespread expectations of the advent of the Promised Mahdi.

Peace

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone....... familiar enough with the Quran

That leaves me out of the loop.
You are a braver man than me, and more conscientious.....
Good idea for a thread.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That leaves me out of the loop.
You are a braver man than me, and more conscientious.....
Good idea for a thread.

See it as an opportunity to learn. I’m very much a novice when it comes to any religion other than Christianity and the Baha’i Faith.

 

[Shia Islam]

Is there any rule that is forever over-written? Maybe some principles remain forever, but there is no universal forever rules in God's religion over all with some minority exceptions. The Imams (a) say verses abrogate other verses (situational) and like wise Sunnah abrogates Sunnah. God has clearly explained what we know is good to be allowed and what is forbidden is what we know to be evil. Imam Ali (a) in Nahjul Balagha says, "for he has not forbidden what you don't know to be evil nor has he commanded you to what you don't know to be good".

It's all situational, all rules, there is no rule that has no exception to it. Even Shirk is forgiven under certain conditions despite Quran saying he never forgives Shirk, The Quran all it's verses have a place, time, situation, and contextualize each other.

All of the Shariah and Sunnah is in Quran, in some form, but we don't perceive.

If you really believe Zakat is going to remain 1/40 wealth to all humans, when Imam Mahdi (a) comes, equal tax to poor and rich, you truly have not understand Quran and it's purpose at that point.

So much more to be said about this, but the context of "Sunnah abrogates Sunnah" was a question, to one of the Imams (a) that previous Imams (a) said something contrary to him, and he said that.

I will make a topic about this. Of course, that is not to say we whimsically choose the Shariah, indeed Quran and Sunnah is meant to be adhered to as light and insights from it to be sought and the proofs of every justice including every human right is in Quran and Sunnah.

Religion should be taken strictly from the prophet and the Imams. Your brain has its limitations. Follow the interpretations of the prophet and the imams of the Quran. All Muslims are followers. The imams are the leaders. Religion is not math. You can't derive the rules with your brain. Just follow the infallible, otherwise you will have your own way and the imams will have their way. Only their way leads to heaven.

 

[Duncan]

Some of the older translations were completed by Christian clergy with a likely agenda to discredit Islam. It makes sense for the Quran to be translated by a well respected scholar amongst both Muslims and an English speaking audience. Such a person is more likely to capture the spirit and essence of the Quran as well as accurately portray the intent of the original Arabic.

It is my pleasure to be a part of your thread brother, as you said we are here to learn from each others, you should know a few points about Quran translations.

First, there is a distinction between the Quran and its translation. In Christian view, the Bible is the Bible, no matter what language it may be in. But a translation of the Quran is not the word of God, for the Quran is the exact Arabic words spoken by God, revealed to Prophet Muhammad by Gabriel. The word of God is only the Arabic Quran as God says:

"Indeed, I revealed it as an Arabic Quran." (Quran 12:2)

A translation is simply an explanation of the meanings of the Quran. That is why one modern English translation has been titled "The Meaning of the Glorious Quran": it strives only to give the meaning, but falls short, as any translation must, of reproducing the form of the Holy Book. The translated text loses the inimitable quality of the original, so be aware of the degree to which a translation reflects the original message at every level of meaning, and that it will probably not match it. For this reason, all which is regarded as ‘recitation’ of the Quran is to be done in Arabic, such as the recitation of the Quran in the five daily prayers of the Muslims.

Second, there is no perfect translation of the Quran, and, being human works, each almost always has errors. Some translations are better in their linguistic quality, while others are noted for their exactness in portraying the meaning. Many inaccurate, and sometimes misleading, translations that are generally not accepted as reliable renditions of the Quran by mainstream Muslims are sold in the market.

Although the meanings of the Quran are easy and clear to understand, one must be careful to make assertions about the religion without relying on an authentic commentary. Not only did Prophet Muhammad bring the Quran, he also explained it to his companions, and these sayings have been collected and preserved till this day. God says:

"And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the message that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them…" (Quran 16:44)

In order to understand some of the deeper meanings of the Quran, one should rely upon commentaries which mention these statements of the Prophet as well as his companions, and not upon what they understand from the text, as their understanding of it is limited to their prior knowledge.

A specific methodology exists for exegesis of the Quran in order to extract the proper meaning. The Quranic sciences, as they are called, are an extremely specialized field of Islamic scholarship which requires mastery in multiple disciplines, like exegesis, recitations, script, inimitability, circumstances behind revelation, abrogation, Quranic grammar, unusual terms, religious rulings, and Arabic language and literature. According to scholars of Quranic exegesis, the proper method of explaining the verses of Quran are:

Tafseer of the Quran by Quran.

Tafseer of the Quran by the Sunna of the Prophet.

Tafseer of the Quran by the Companions.

Tafseer of the Quran by Arabic language.

Tafseer of the Quran by ‘opinion’, if it does not contradict the above four sources.

That is why I learnt Arabic and did Quranic studies, that way when I read the Quran i understand it. So you cannot translate the World of Allah it is impossible but you can explain it`s meaning.

 

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Religion should be taken strictly from the prophet and the Imams. Your brain has its limitations. Follow the interpretations of the prophet and the imams of the Quran. All Muslims are followers. The imams are the leaders. Religion is not math. You can't derive the rules with your brain. Just follow the infallible, otherwise you will have your own way and the imams will have their way. Only their way leads to heaven.

Then religion should be abandoned, because, we have no access to the Imam (at least in public).

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

It all hinges on how ones defines 'Islam' here. There is also verse 3:19:

'Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat [proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.] of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.' [Mohsin Khan translation/interpretation of meaning]

I am (increasingly) of the opinion that these verses mean that only Muslims can be sure of reward in the Hereafter.

PS. A quibble (though actually, truly, not a quibble at all), if I may, we (Muslims) believe these verses are Allah's Word and therefore not 'according to Muhammad' (pbuh).