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Surah 3:85 - Who does Muhammad (PBUH) claim to have lost all spiritual good in the hereafter?

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
My intent with this thread was to better understand the meaning of these verses. I suspect there is a parallel with John 14:6 in Christianity that is frequently used by apologists to deny the validity of other religions.
Agreed, there is a parallel with sayings of Jesus in John 14:6 as well as the other saying of Jesus, such as the earth and heaven come to end but my word shall remain for ever.

The Muslims usually say, such sayings of Jesus in John 14:6 are not really from Jesus, but Christians have added them to their book, altering the text, but our Book, the Quran is truely the word of God, unaltered, which we follow.
Mostly the Muslims believe the verses in Quran are literal, and there is no deeper meaning to look for in them.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mostly the Muslims believe the verses in Quran are literal, and there is no deeper meaning to look for in them.

Quran can be clear and deeply meaningful at the same time. That said, which Muslims believe there is no deeper meaning to Quranic verses. I haven't met any myself. Maybe you done a poll and gathered this data?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Quran can be clear and deeply meaningful at the same time. That said, which Muslims believe there is no deeper meaning to Quranic verses. I haven't met any myself. Maybe you done a poll and gathered this data?
I don't mean to criticize though.
If you tell a Muslim, which religion is the only true religion? They will reply Islam. If you ask them, then why the religion that Jesus or Moses brought were not called Islam, what will be the answer from a Muslim?

From what I have seen, some of them on this forum, believed, the religion that Moses or Jesus had brought from God were originally called Islam, but, the people of the book, changed the name of their religion to Christianity or Judaism (مسیحی، یهودی).
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It all hinges on how ones defines 'Islam' here. There is also verse 3:19:

'Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat [proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.] of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.' [Mohsin Khan translation/interpretation of meaning]

I am (increasingly) of the opinion that these verses mean that only Muslims can be sure of reward in the Hereafter.

That’s what I thought. Thanks for making that clear.

PS. A quibble (though actually, truly, not a quibble at all), if I may, we (Muslims) believe these verses are Allah's Word and therefore not 'according to Muhammad' (pbuh).

I appreciate that is what Muslims believe. I believe Muhammad (PBUH) was a Manifestation of God and the bearer of a Divine Revelation. I don’t believe for one moment Muhammad (PBUH) was a passive recipient of the Message that He simply recited verbatim.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't mean to criticize though.
If you tell a Muslim, which religion is the only true religion? They will reply Islam. If you ask them, then why the religion that Jesus or Moses brought were not called Islam, what will be the answer from a Muslim?

From what I have seen, some of them on this forum, believed, the religion that Moses or Jesus had brought from God were originally called Islam, but, the people of the book, changed the name of their religion to Christianity or Judaism (مسیحی، یهودی).

People on forums usually are not too bright from my experience.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

Its the one who desires a dheen other than islam. Its preaching "One Dheen".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Here the claim is that while verse 2:62 says that some Jews and Christians will be rewarded, this was abrogated by 3:85 which states that all who are not Muslim will end up in hell.

No. You turned it into something else.

It doesnt say "Hell". You have inferred it. Also, this is not abrogating anything else which is a simple conjecture. If you think this is abrogated another verse from chapter 2, then the latter verse in the same chapter 3 must be abrogating 3:85 (In your logic).

"And from the people of the Book are those who believe in God and what was sent down to you and what was sent down to them; fearful to God, they do not purchase with the revelations of God a cheap price. These will have their recompense with their Lord. For God is swift in reckoning." - Qur'an 3:199

Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't mean to criticize though.
If you tell a Muslim, which religion is the only true religion? They will reply Islam. If you ask them, then why the religion that Jesus or Moses brought were not called Islam, what will be the answer from a Muslim?

From what I have seen, some of them on this forum, believed, the religion that Moses or Jesus had brought from God were originally called Islam, but, the people of the book, changed the name of their religion to Christianity or Judaism (مسیحی، یهودی).

You keep using these "Names" as if they are god given. Show me where you can find the names "Christianity and Judaism" in scripture you claim are "God given" and did God give those names?

Also, just like an evangelist who does not understand that Islam is not a name like shintoism you are speaking of it. Islam is a process or a thing to do, not a name like sariputra.

You keep speaking about Moses and Jesus and what about the religions they brought, but as the Quran says Ibrahim taught Islam.

“And strive for God a genuine striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ‘those who have submitted’ (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the Communion and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.” (Qur’an 22:78)

Islam is an Arabic word. So you are using it as a foreign language name and it could not have existed in history. The same nonsensical argument, similar to some people that say Allah is not God.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

You've underscored the pink elephant of the tension between "Jews and Christians are beloved People of the Book" and "Jews and Christians are hellbound infidels who must submit."

I DESIRE A RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM so being a born again Christian who seeks to do God's will and God's good in the world, I'm going to Hell, per the Qu'ran.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This is a discussion for Muslims, Baha’is and anyone familiar enough with the Quran who can make informed commentary on Surah 3:84-85. The Yusuf Ali translation reads:

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


The verses concern the necessity of not just following Muhammad but all the Prophets before Him. It ends with a strongly worded warning against those who deviate.

So who are the lost ones according to Muhammad?

For context we need to consider the verses from part of Al Imran the third chapter of the Quran.

Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Mary (mother of Jesus). This chapter is named after the family of Imran, which includes Imran, Saint Anne, Mary, and Jesus. Regarding the timing and contextual background of the revelation, the chapter is believed to have been either the second or third of the Medinan surahs, as it references both the events of Badr and the Uhud. Almost all of it also belongs to the third year of the Hijra, though a minority of its verses might have been revealed during the visit of the Najrān Christian deputation and the Mubahala, which occurred around the 10th year of the Hijrah. This chapter primarily focuses on the departure of prophethood from the Mosaic dispensation.

Al Imran - Wikipedia

I believe if you look at footnote 3 on the Wikipedia article you will see the source is one person who evidently has his own opinion.

I believe anyone is lost who does not hear and obey God. Since the Holy Spirit is the easiest way to hear God these days, Christians are saved but non-Christians have a harder road to travel to hear from God and since none of the non-Christians have Jesus as Savior they are still lost in disobedience.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I found that echoed in this exegesis:

Here the claim is that while verse 2:62 says that some Jews and Christians will be rewarded, this was abrogated by 3:85 which states that all who are not Muslim will end up in hell.

The misunderstanding and poor interpretation here stems from their lack of understanding of the word Islam (Submission). In spite of the fact that God tells us in the Quran that Islam (Submission to God Alone) is as old as Abraham who was the first Muslim (see 2:128, 2:131, 2:133) and who was the first to name us Muslims (22:78), still the Muslim scholars today insist that Islam is confined to being the religion of the Quran !!!

By creating such a false statement, the Muslim scholars claim to be the custodians of the message! In 3:67 God specifically tells us that Abraham was neither Jewish nor Christian, but a monotheist Muslim. God also tells us in 5:111 that Jesus and the Disciples were Muslim. In 27:44 tells us that Solomon was Muslim and in 5:44 we are told of all the prophets who were given the Torah and who were all Muslim.

What all these verses are confirming is that there are Muslims who followed the Torah and the Bible and who knew nothing of the Quran. These Muslims were submitters to God Alone , Lord of the universe.

In effect the religion of Islam which was originally founded by Abraham can be found, not only in the Quran, but also in the Torah and the Bible. After all we are told that all the foundations of the religion, and which Muslims call the pillars of Islam were first given to Abraham.

The Quran confirms the true meaning of a Muslim, as being he who submits to God Alone and obeys the law of God Alone, and should not be confined to he who follows the Quran.

Those among the Christians who believe in the Oneness of God and who do not worship Jesus are Muslim in the sight of God. Similarly those among any other religion who submit to God Alone and who set up no idols to partner Almighty God are Muslim in the sight of God.

All these have their recompense from their Lord and have nothing to fear (2:62). These people are also the subject of 3:85 since they chose to be Muslim (submitters) to God. They could be Muslim submitters, Jewish submitters, Christian submitters …..etc.

Consequently, there is no contradiction between 2:62 and 3:85

I believe that is false. The verse says Islam not Muslim. Muslims are never going to be islamic.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You keep using these "Names" as if they are god given. Show me where you can find the names "Christianity and Judaism" in scripture you claim are "God given" and did God give those names?

Also, just like an evangelist who does not understand that Islam is not a name like shintoism you are speaking of it. Islam is a process or a thing to do, not a name like sariputra.

You keep speaking about Moses and Jesus and what about the religions they brought, but as the Quran says Ibrahim taught Islam.

“And strive for God a genuine striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ‘those who have submitted’ (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the Communion and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.” (Qur’an 22:78)

Islam is an Arabic word. So you are using it as a foreign language name and it could not have existed in history. The same nonsensical argument, similar to some people that say Allah is not God.
Do you think which one matters: to follow teachings of prophets, or what name people are called? It seems to me, many Muslims are much more focused on the name "Muslim", and "Islam" rather than the actual teachings of prophets. Probably Christians, Bahais, etc are also guilty of doing the same though.


What difference does it make, what you or they are called?
As a Muslim, do you believe God awards you, if you call yourself Muslim? Or He would punish them, if they called themselves Chrisitans (followers of Christ)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you think which one matters: to follow teachings of prophets, or what name people are called? It seems to me, many Muslims are much more focused on the name "Muslim", and "Islam" rather than the actual teachings of prophets. Probably Christians, Bahais, etc are also guilty of doing the same though.


What difference does it make, what you or they are called?
As a Muslim, do you believe God awards you, if you call yourself Muslim? Or He would punish them, if they called themselves Chrisitans (followers of Christ)


Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,


ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The religion of truth has been called many things, among it's titles is to leave's one dark home and arrive at God and his Messenger, among the names is to run and flee to God, among it is also the sword of God and fighting off darkness and sorcery, and among it is taking what we been given by power (magic of white good kind), and among is to hold on the rope of God and among the titles is to rise up for the sake of God and reflect, and among the titles is to be a Rabani (sage with great intense knowledge of the religion and sincere worshiper of God and free from the vanities of the world) by what we study and teach, from the alternative view, it's the rejection of the taghut, the destruction of idols, the hitting of weapons against Iblis and his forces.

The title of "Submission" becoming the central title, is due to history and misunderstanding of verses due to sorcery, and this was their way the Gog and Magog among us for distorting, they always need a title to centralize and define through, and part of the way of not only causing division between other humans of other paths, but to split the believers of Mohammad (s) into sects and all vie for a title that is meaningless as truth is never something that stays, but rather, we are enter to God's boats, his doors, his paths, and grow, and learn from all others as along as we centralize learning from the book that is recited in our time and the family of that reminder.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The translations of name is also misleading, God didn't name anyone as Muslims, he titled them as submitters, but all the emphasis on submission was to say, yes, Mohammad (s) has complete authority on you, and you have to follow and obey him, but it's not out of intention to submit to a human nor what he wishes, but rather he is calling to God.

And God understands it looks like we completely submitting to Mohammad (s), so emphasizes, among the titles of the religion of truth, is submitting to God. That is how you look at from one angle.

But what does it mean to submit and accept God's guidance? It means to rise up, believe in God and his light, hold on to the rope of God, follow the leaders appointed by God through clear proof, to fight and strive for your soul, to take with great power the book and sacred teachings, and over come the dark sorcery.

It's just one angle, that we are submitting to God and it's brought always in discussion, of their accusation that Mohammad (s) was a sorcerer trying to gain sway in the land and control and change their ways and instead decide the fate of humans.

It's a place of understanding, say, it seems like Mohammad (s) seeks a reward, but really, the path of God is submission to him, then explains the way to do that to be through his chosen Messengers and books and holding to their light, and God doesn't speak vainly.

He is telling humans, yes, I understand Mohammad (s) looks power hungry as if seeking a personal reward, but really, the chosen families are the means of God towards himself and there is a wisdom.

Ultimately Abraham and Mohammad and his family are titled that as well, to show, they weren't making up **** and getting people to submit to their desires, like rest of humans and Jinn, but rather, were themselves holding to God's light and revelation, and the branches (members of a chosen families) were all submitters to God and means of submission.

And it understand that obeying God and Messenger, looks like what disbelievers would say "will we prostrate to what you command....", and this is hard, to submit your whole soul against your desires to a human that is living.

We can easily do it now with Mohammad (s) only because we can choose a lot now, but when the Mahdi (a) comes, and what he says is truth and insights we must grasp right away and do away with our conceptions, we may become stubborn.

So the trial of submitting to a living guide in the open is not here right now. This is not submission to God through a Messenger, this is following opinions some your own, some from the Messenger, some from God but there is no religion of truth that is submission to God today.

It's hidden among a few dispersed humans who follow the guide of our time and work to help establish justice and enlightenment, but this religion we call Islam is as the Christian person who write pink said, it's unrealistic, Muslims are not on that, and the proof is their is for every possible view of Quran you can have, even if the Quran by that view is contradictory and contradicts itself is found among Muslims.

There is no agreement, not even on Tawheed, not on what consists Nubuwa or Messengerhood or Leadership, it's all disagreed upon, even what Angels are, is disagreed upon, nothing do we agree upon. Nothing.

Don't tell me titling yourself Muslim is useful now. It's not. It's foolishness.

God was pleased with submission as the religion only on certain conditions as explained in the 5th Surah, but people don't understand, so we deviated like Christians and Jews and became of opinions and far away from the path, the light, the illiyin and don't witness the guide in our hearts let alone understand what Quran said regarding him. We are a lost nation blind, blind almost beyond repair because we've become stubborn to our idols created through generations of deception and dark magic upon us.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Allah" also is not a name of God, just as "God" is not, just as any sound word is not, but rather, they are titles. God's Name and he did choose one, is that reality connected to him by which it's possible to title him titles and believe in Him and see him, and the context of beautiful names is that. Samuel means God's Name, not God hears. God hears that Ishmael and that's clear, Samuel can mean God heard, but it's sounds like a less eloquent name from Hebrew standpoint that Ishmael which means the same God hears, while Samuel would be due alternative and more clear meaning being name of God less eloquent to assume it means something other then the primary word. So the more apparent thing is that it means "name of God" and this is true regardless if he was named that or not.

Moses means drawn out and he is drawn out from the unseen river of truth to this world, and himself an unseen river, that unseen he is brought out from to this world, it he name of God and Moses manifesting signs and power, all manifest power of God's titles but also his names, titles are words that are dead, not living, ways to refer to God, like reference points to reference points if you know programming.

But the true way to refer to God and point to him, has to be alive, or else "God" is circular. God wasn't born so to be named but created creation in need of knowing him, so the means to know known as the face of God or image of God or name of God or light of God or word of God - those exalted souls, are the way to submit to God.

It's not that we can submit to God without them, it's that it's impossible for God to establish a means because he speaks through veils, and we are a dirty veil, if he spoke through our veil, we would rightfully and God wouldn't expect to assume otherwise, think we going crazy or sorcery upon us or possessed by demons.

But Prophets (a) connect to higher reality and see the trust worthy spirits and see the descent of truth of God's word from highest pen to lowest world and lowest mind, and bring out God's hidden name to the outward, and know him verily well enough to now if they conveyed the truth to all minds and made clear the truth.

They work with revelations and interpret it, and guides come in groups, never alone to die alone and leave the people leaderless, if people are leaderless, something went terrible in history, because miracles are explained in a way, they are meant to say, and be continuous, unless, for some reasons, the first people deny them and cause conditions in which God doesn't send them any longer.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Do you think which one matters: to follow teachings of prophets, or what name people are called? It seems to me, many Muslims are much more focused on the name "Muslim", and "Islam" rather than the actual teachings of prophets. Probably Christians, Bahais, etc are also guilty of doing the same though.


What difference does it make, what you or they are called?
As a Muslim, do you believe God awards you, if you call yourself Muslim? Or He would punish them, if they called themselves Chrisitans (followers of Christ)

The name came up, because you brought it up. Now you saying what matters most is not relevant, yet it was your own statements.

It seems to me that you are the one who is most focused on the name Muslim and Islam rather than the actual teachings of the prophets which is why you spoke of names.

As a Muslim I believe that God awards you as the Quran says for believing in him, and doing good works. So you are trying your best for some reason to impose some "calling myself a muslim is more important" while it was you who brought inn the names.

Truly strange.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I believe that passage to be speaking the exact truth.

To my knowledge Prophet Muhammad was prophesied in both the Torah and the New Testament so by rejecting Him both Jews and Christians would effectively be rejecting a part of their own scriptures and by default it makes them unbelievers in the Words of their own Faith.

Unfortunately some get attached to names so therefore reject a new Prophet when God sends Him. That is the test of their sincerity and if it’s the case as I believe that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible, then both Christians and Jews have not only rejected Muhammad but Jesus and Moses as well as well.

I won’t go into any detail but it is my firm belief that passages referring to Mount Paran and the Paraclete are references to Prophet Muhammad. There are also symbolic references I believe in the Book of Revelation which refer to Muhammad, Islam, the Caliphs and the 12 Imams.

It is not difficult to recognise a Great Spiritual Being except when slander and innuendo are used to cast doubt in the minds of men and as most know, all the Prophets have had to contend with being misrepresented and opposed by the leaders of Their day.

God gave us each a mind to think and question for ourselves not to follow others blindly so if people have ‘chosen’ to blindly follow their leaders and turn away from a new Prophet then I believe they alone are to blame and will be brought to account by God not us. We are to love all without judgement. God alone decides who is a true believer and who is not. .

But God is Merciful and Forgiving and may overlook a persons failure to believe. That is His Right because He is God and does whatever He pleases.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Then religion should be abandoned, because, we have no access to the Imam (at least in public).

You have access to huge amounts of literature that the imams have left during their living among the Shiites for more than 3 centuries. They also taught us how to deal with the Hadiths, and how to behave during the disappearance of the last imam.

Finally, we have to remind each others that the matters of religions should not be debated for the sake of defeating others. These are matters of eternal success or eternal destruction. We have to be humble and ask God for direction.

May Allah bestow his mercy upon us.
Amen
 
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